Contesting smart motorway fine

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

Washwipe:

mm1988:

toonsy:
Is it not just easier and less tine consuming to drop to 50mph? It would’ve cost seconds instead of hours/days/weeks contesting a potential fine.

Yeah I get the point and it can be frustrating and leads people into ignoring gantry info because it’s wrong/not turned off when it’s finished with etc but ultimately it’s a few seconds lost and a few clicks of the CC and that’s it.

I’m sure you can contest it but you’ll need to spend time gathering evidence etc and ultimately they could say it was down to 50mph for any number of spurious safety reasons and its then game over for any challenge.

You’re right it’s not worth the hassle but it really annoys me. I was on the M6 near Birmingham last week about half 4 in the morning and 1 gantry was set to 30mph. Again there was hardly any other traffic on the road and the gantry happened to have a camera on it.

Of course if there is a genuine reason for it I have no problem with them being on like around Leeds in an afternoon when it’s busy and the cameras are flashing constantly, people deserve to get caught but when there is nothing on the road it really annoys me.

Also I slowed down to 50mph this morning and the tipper in front didn’t seem to be going much faster but it was enough to trigger the camera. Does anyone how much over the limit the camera’s are set?

Like many on here I spend most of my time on Mways, never seen a gantry sign at 30mph, even when the traffic has been crawling, never seen it below 40mph.
Normally they go 60, 50, 40 and then up again, never seen them go straight to 50 unless joining from a slip road to an existing limit.

You can’t do much night driving around Birmingham then, regularly down to 30mph on the M42 when anywhere else in the country through roadworks t would be 50mph

22

DickyNick:

Nite Owl:

DickyNick:
The TNUK experts say its money making yet these things have been designed by people who are trained in it, and have spent hundreds maybe thousands of hours researching and collecting data on the traffic flow in an area before it’s turned to smart motorway. Yet there’s experts that are more qualified on here that just say its money making.

Well news flash. See a speed limit, and whether you agree with it or not. Slow to that limit. And don’t get a ticket. So the “money makers” don’t make any money from you then. Revolutionary concept isn’t it?

So someone with bits of paper on the wall and letters after their name knows more than a guy who drives a stretch of road every day for years/decades? These things are pure money makers, nothing more. I see it night after night after night, speed limits reduced for no reason for one gantry only. And it’s always a camera gantry.

That said, I have no sympathy for those who think the laws dont apply to them. I just wish the authorities would stop lying to us and tell us what we already know, it’s a stupid tax.

How do you know it was for no reason 2 minutes ago and it’s just not been updated yet? Or control are awaiting confirmation that it’s safe to lift the limit? This is what I mean, it’s all well and good saying stuff like that without seeing the bigger picture and just automatically thinking it’s authority against us.

I think it’s a bit more than a few bits of paper on the wall. The driver who has driven it for decades I imagine doesn’t know or care about emission sensors and wider environmental impact and what levels of CO2 and other emissions are emitted at different speeds, and how a slow flow of traffic compared to stop start traffic has an impact on that. All these things have been researched and tested by experts with scientific support. And no I’m sorry someone who’s been driving a truck 30 years doesn’t qualify as an expert.

Because two hours after I first went through it, it’s still there on my second run. If there are air quality issues at 2am, I doubt very much slowing cars on the motorway will help. But that’s the easy answer and the authorities can be seen to be doing something. Obviously the fact it raises a fortune off those too stupid to realise what these “smart motorways” is is just an added bonus. Kerching

23

I’m amazed these gantries have not been turned on to 100% enforcement - especially the ones that only very rarely seem to flash - when someone passes under a red ‘x’…

The camera could be set to the usual 10% tolerance… 34 through a 30 triggers it… 45 through a 40 and 56 through a 50 - meaning all those stobart, TNT, and tipper drivers going flat out through the roadworks - get clobbered. :smiling_imp:

24

Nite Owl:

DickyNick:

Nite Owl:

DickyNick:
The TNUK experts say its money making yet these things have been designed by people who are trained in it, and have spent hundreds maybe thousands of hours researching and collecting data on the traffic flow in an area before it’s turned to smart motorway. Yet there’s experts that are more qualified on here that just say its money making.

Well news flash. See a speed limit, and whether you agree with it or not. Slow to that limit. And don’t get a ticket. So the “money makers” don’t make any money from you then. Revolutionary concept isn’t it?

So someone with bits of paper on the wall and letters after their name knows more than a guy who drives a stretch of road every day for years/decades? These things are pure money makers, nothing more. I see it night after night after night, speed limits reduced for no reason for one gantry only. And it’s always a camera gantry.

That said, I have no sympathy for those who think the laws dont apply to them. I just wish the authorities would stop lying to us and tell us what we already know, it’s a stupid tax.

How do you know it was for no reason 2 minutes ago and it’s just not been updated yet? Or control are awaiting confirmation that it’s safe to lift the limit? This is what I mean, it’s all well and good saying stuff like that without seeing the bigger picture and just automatically thinking it’s authority against us.

I think it’s a bit more than a few bits of paper on the wall. The driver who has driven it for decades I imagine doesn’t know or care about emission sensors and wider environmental impact and what levels of CO2 and other emissions are emitted at different speeds, and how a slow flow of traffic compared to stop start traffic has an impact on that. All these things have been researched and tested by experts with scientific support. And no I’m sorry someone who’s been driving a truck 30 years doesn’t qualify as an expert.

Because two hours after I first went through it, it’s still there on my second run. If there are air quality issues at 2am, I doubt very much slowing cars on the motorway will help. But that’s the easy answer and the authorities can be seen to be doing something. Obviously the fact it raises a fortune off those too stupid to realise what these “smart motorways” is is just an added bonus. Kerching

It raises a fortune from those who are too stupid to see a speed limit and comply with it. If motorists can’t do that SIMPLE thing they deserve to make a fortune from it. The only people that are stupid in this is the drivers who can’t do that small thing.

It’s quite a simple idea really. You don’t want the authorities making money out of motorists? Then do what the sign says.

25

Winseer:
I’m amazed these gantries have not been turned on to 100% enforcement

Not sure any of those over the gantry ever work as they seem to have been replaced with those yellow ones on the side.

Agree they need to put more gantry ones on there and include red X camera settings.

26

I agree in this case that then OP describes it seems like it was wrong to be showing a lower speed limit. That said, it’s still your own fault if you don’t comply with it. It only makes them money if you don’t comply with a simple instruction. Do as it says and they won’t make money out of you will they?

The problem is always people don’t want to keep to a speed limit or obey other road signs if THEY can’t see a reason for it.

I was going down the M6 the other night and in the opposite side I see highways stopped in lane one. About half a mile or so down the road I see the speed cameras flashing at drivers. I look in my mirror and lane 1 is showing a red X then lane 2,3,4 is showing 40. I bet those drivers going through and getting flashed couldn’t see a reason for it being 40 themselves so thought nah I’m not keeping to that limit. Little did they know there are people a little further down the road in a lane.

Often when a speed is left up and there’s nothing there, recently there probably has been something like that or a work force in the lane and control need to wait for confirmation it’s safe before clearing the signs.

Just because drivers can’t see a reason for it doesn’t mean there isn’t a reason or wasn’t recently.

27

I dont get it.

We could all sit here and argue how its safe to do 90 on the motorway.

But if it says 50 its a 50. If it says 40 its a 40.

Dont fly through a 50 and then moan you got flashed, go through at 50 and live peacefully.

Cash cow or not, you were warned. And chose to ignore.

28

Ok, As you guys don’t know how the signals and messages (VMS = Variable Message Sign) work, let me explain.
Firstly, there are a number of systems that put up signs & signals automatically.

  1. Main one is MIDAS (Motorway Incident Detection And Signalling ) This is controlled by sensors set into the lanes or the c/way, (Wires set in each lane in what looks like a square shape approx 1 metre square. These montor the average speed of traffic flowing over them, if the average speed drops below 50mph, it will put 50’s, " CONGESTION / QUEUE CAUTION " ANY VMS with “QUEUE OR CONGESTION” is 99.9% set by MIDAS, if the speed drops below 40mph, then it will set 40’s. The system relooks at the data coming from these sensors approx every 4 mins, and if the speed is hovering around the set limit, it will adjust the speeds up one, or up to the point where it will cancel them. (It does need a number of vehicles to be constantly at that speed to take the average) now this is where you can get the anomaly of 50, 50 ,40 ,50 etc. Between that 40 and the last 50, something took the average speed right down, then started to clear so the next signal is 50, and clear after that. An exit slip with the queue tailing into lane 1 would cause this.
    NOTE; The system will NOT ALLOW allow larger step downs of more than 20 mph at a time. *** (See note)

  2. High winds & Fog As previously mentioned, there are weather stations set adjacent to the motorway in certain locations, high bridges, very exposed areas especially. These monitor the weather conditions and will set the signals and VMS accordingly. usually no lower than 50 mph. ***(See note)

  3. Messages " ## MILES TO J^^, ++ MINS" These again are set automatically. There are cameras, similar to ANPR, that read and note the last 3 letter of vehicle number-plates, the system then monitors how long it takes for the majority of a batch of number-plates to get to the next point, then sets the appropriate message. (PS, it’s no good trying to beat them, it will not give a better average than what 70 mph works out to)

Now we get onto the signs and signals that are set manually in the control rooms.

This all depends on the information passed to the control rooms. (Incorrect information means incorrectly set signals)

UNCONFIRMED REPORTS; Normally from member of the Public via various means, 999 call to the Police, Emergency Roadside Phones (ERT), Recovery agents. etc.
Signals are set to 50’s, with VMS set to “REPORT OF…” Unless it’s one of the following where life could be in immediate danger. “PEDESTRIANS” “ANIMALS” (i’m sure there’s another, but can’t remember at moment!) If there has been a number of calls giving the same information, and the location is tied down somewhat, the speeds can be reduced to 30’s for 2 gantries.
The one unconfirmed report that does get major signally & arses twitching! Is " ONCOMING VEHICLE" Signals are set for 20’s for a considerable distance, often on both c/ways unless confident that the correct c/way is known. Again these can only be cleared on the instruction of the Police patrol that will check for this.
CONFIRMED REPORTS
This could be a previously unconfirmed report this is now found on cctv. A report from a Police Officer, HETO, Highways road crew, or other respected source.
Once a report is CONFIRMED, then signs and signals can be amended to whatever is required to deal with the incident, IE, Lane Closures, Motorway Closures, Lower Speeds, Alternative Messages.

NOTE: WHEN SIGNALS ARE SET WHAT-SO-EVER, THEY CAN ONLY BE CLEARED / AMENDED ON THE INSTRUCTIONS OF THE POLICE / HETO PATROL ON SCENE, NO-ONE ELSE.

So, if there’s been a “REPORT OF DEBRIS” between J32 to J33 of the M6, 50’s and VMS set to “REPORT OF DEBRIS” they can’t be cleared until a patrol has checked all 13½ miles of c/way, probably with a rolling block on so traffic can be stopped if needed to. (This is why it’s so important to use the marker-post numbers)
If the VMS says “INCIDENT” then check the over bridges. (I’ll say no more)

Any Lane closures set with a red circle around it, be it a ‘Red X’ or a 'wicket ’ TII ’ It is set for a reason, and it is mandatory, you will now 90% of the time be booked for disobeying it.

***(Note) I’ve said that signals will normally only go down as far as 40’s automatically, there are a couple of exceptions, these are were there is a speed restriction already in place for normal running. Ie, Roadworks, or tight curves. if there is already a speed limit on these for normal running, the system can’t set higher speeds, it’s starting point is now the limit set.
I’ve also said that the system will only allow step downs of 20 mph at a time, it looks at what has been manually set on a signal and set preceding signals accordingly. Lets look at a 3 lane motorway, with lanes 1 & 2 closure set before the incident (Minimum distance to incident is 300 yds, or set 2 signals the same) if the gantries are relatively close, tHE SYSTEM will set the one before it, lanes 1 & 2 as lane divert right, with 30’s over lane 3. the signal before that one will go to 50’s, so that 3 gantries set, with whatever message is picked from the template list.(ie accident) As traffic builds up and starts to queue, the gantries prior to these 3, will now start to be set by MIDAS.
If however you are on a motorway with long distances between signals (Ie normally the ‘hockey stick’ type from the grass verge, then the signal prior to the one with the lane closure will set to 50’s, until MIDAS knocks it down to 40’s

Any signs and signals set in the Regional Control rooms are closely monitored, they have to be set within a couple of minutes from the start of the log, and they have to be cleared within 3 minutes of the Patrol requesting clearance. (The system itself takes it’s time especially if it’s busy) Any operator missing these times are put for retraining.
MESSAGE SIGNS (VMS)
Sometimes you will see messages informing you of motorway closure miles & miles away, or of Events that could cause problems in a date yet to come, you’ll also see campaign messages, “is you car ready for winter” “watch for bikes” “Check your fuel” etc. All these are set by the ‘NATIONAL TRAFFIC INFORMATION CENTRE’ Down there in the Midlands, they also inform the media of any incidents on the HE nework that are potentially long running problems. They also update & control the ‘TRAFFIC ENGLAND’ Website.

I know it’s been like War & Peace, but if you’re aware of how it works, you’ll have a better understanding of it.

29

Thanks for taking the time with that.

30

Concretejim:
I dont get it.

We could all sit here and argue how its safe to do 90 on the motorway.

But if it says 50 its a 50. If it says 40 its a 40.

Dont fly through a 50 and then moan you got flashed, go through at 50 and live peacefully.

Cash cow or not, you were warned. And chose to ignore.

Exactly. Not, “it says 50 but I think it’s safe to go faster, I know there’s likely to be a speed camera on that gantry but it’s just money making so I’ll go through at the speed I want, get fined, then moan to everyone that speed cameras are just there to make money out of poor motorists” :unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

31

The real Biffo:
Ok, As you guys don’t know how the signals and messages (VMS = Variable Message Sign) work, let me explain.
Firstly, there are a number of systems that put up signs & signals automatically.

  1. Main one is MIDAS (Motorway Incident Detection And Signalling ) This is controlled by sensors set into the lanes or the c/way, (Wires set in each lane in what looks like a square shape approx 1 metre square. These montor the average speed of traffic flowing over them, if the average speed drops below 50mph, it will put 50’s, " CONGESTION / QUEUE CAUTION " ANY VMS with “QUEUE OR CONGESTION” is 99.9% set by MIDAS, if the speed drops below 40mph, then it will set 40’s. The system relooks at the data coming from these sensors approx every 4 mins, and if the speed is hovering around the set limit, it will adjust the speeds up one, or up to the point where it will cancel them. (It does need a number of vehicles to be constantly at that speed to take the average) now this is where you can get the anomaly of 50, 50 ,40 ,50 etc. Between that 40 and the last 50, something took the average speed right down, then started to clear so the next signal is 50, and clear after that. An exit slip with the queue tailing into lane 1 would cause this.
    NOTE; The system will NOT ALLOW allow larger step downs of more than 20 mph at a time. *** (See note)

  2. High winds & Fog As previously mentioned, there are weather stations set adjacent to the motorway in certain locations, high bridges, very exposed areas especially. These monitor the weather conditions and will set the signals and VMS accordingly. usually no lower than 50 mph. ***(See note)

  3. Messages " ## MILES TO J^^, ++ MINS" These again are set automatically. There are cameras, similar to ANPR, that read and note the last 3 letter of vehicle number-plates, the system then monitors how long it takes for the majority of a batch of number-plates to get to the next point, then sets the appropriate message. (PS, it’s no good trying to beat them, it will not give a better average than what 70 mph works out to)

Now we get onto the signs and signals that are set manually in the control rooms.

This all depends on the information passed to the control rooms. (Incorrect information means incorrectly set signals)

UNCONFIRMED REPORTS; Normally from member of the Public via various means, 999 call to the Police, Emergency Roadside Phones (ERT), Recovery agents. etc.
Signals are set to 50’s, with VMS set to “REPORT OF…” Unless it’s one of the following where life could be in immediate danger. “PEDESTRIANS” “ANIMALS” (i’m sure there’s another, but can’t remember at moment!) If there has been a number of calls giving the same information, and the location is tied down somewhat, the speeds can be reduced to 30’s for 2 gantries.
The one unconfirmed report that does get major signally & arses twitching! Is " ONCOMING VEHICLE" Signals are set for 20’s for a considerable distance, often on both c/ways unless confident that the correct c/way is known. Again these can only be cleared on the instruction of the Police patrol that will check for this.
CONFIRMED REPORTS
This could be a previously unconfirmed report this is now found on cctv. A report from a Police Officer, HETO, Highways road crew, or other respected source.
Once a report is CONFIRMED, then signs and signals can be amended to whatever is required to deal with the incident, IE, Lane Closures, Motorway Closures, Lower Speeds, Alternative Messages.

NOTE: WHEN SIGNALS ARE SET WHAT-SO-EVER, THEY CAN ONLY BE CLEARED / AMENDED ON THE INSTRUCTIONS OF THE POLICE / HETO PATROL ON SCENE, NO-ONE ELSE.

So, if there’s been a “REPORT OF DEBRIS” between J32 to J33 of the M6, 50’s and VMS set to “REPORT OF DEBRIS” they can’t be cleared until a patrol has checked all 13½ miles of c/way, probably with a rolling block on so traffic can be stopped if needed to. (This is why it’s so important to use the marker-post numbers)

Any Lane closures set with a red circle around it, be it a ‘Red X’ or a 'wicket ’ TII ’ It is set for a reason, and it is mandatory, you will now 90% of the time be booked for disobeying it.

***(Note) I’ve said that signals will normally only go down as far as 40’s automatically, there are a couple of exceptions, these are were there is a speed restriction already in place for normal running. Ie, Roadworks, or tight curves. if there is already a speed limit on these for normal running, the system can’t set higher speeds, it’s starting point is now the limit set.
I’ve also said that the system will only allow step downs of 20 mph at a time, it looks at what has been manually set on a signal and set preceding signals accordingly. Lets look at a 3 lane motorway, with lanes 1 & 2 closure set before the incident (Minimum distance to incident is 300 yds, or set 2 signals the same) if the gantries are relatively close, tHE SYSTEM will set the one before it, lanes 1 & 2 as lane divert right, with 30’s over lane 3. the signal before that one will go to 50’s, so that 3 gantries set, with whatever message is picked from the template list.(ie accident) As traffic builds up and starts to queue, the gantries prior to these 3, will now start to be set by MIDAS.
If however you are on a motorway with long distances between signals (Ie normally the ‘hockey stick’ type from the grass verge, then the signal prior to the one with the lane closure will set to 50’s, until MIDAS knocks it down to 40’s

Any signs and signals set in the Regional Control rooms are closely monitored, they have to be set within a couple of minutes from the start of the log, and they have to be cleared within 3 minutes of the Patrol requesting clearance. (The system itself takes it’s time especially if it’s busy) Any operator missing these times are put for retraining.
MESSAGE SIGNS (VMS)
Sometimes you will see messages informing you of motorway closure miles & miles away, or of Events that could cause problems in a date yet to come, you’ll also see campaign messages, “is you car ready for winter” “watch for bikes” “Check your fuel” etc. All these are set by the ‘NATIONAL TRAFFIC INFORMATION CENTRE’ Down there in the Midlands, they also inform the media of any incidents on the HE nework that are potentially long running problems. They also update & control the ‘TRAFFIC ENGLAND’ Website.

I know it’s been like War & Peace, but if you’re aware of how it works, you’ll have a better understanding of it.

So MIDAS is basically when drivers can’t drive, control speed correctly, bunch up together, not have decent spaces so they all have to slam on when someone changes lane and slow the average speed of that lane, thus triggering a speed limit change which everyone else then moans is there for no reason and there to make money.

32

Thanks for the rendition of war & peace - will have to bookmark that one.

I wonder of it can tell the difference between trucks and cars, since there are often 60 limits which appear at night.

Might have been a previous reason, but if you get a lot of trucks doing 50ish could the system think theres slow traffic and the start of congestion? Especially if it mistakes trailers for lots of bunched up cars.

Yeah ok, trucks doing 50, but if theres an incline not all of us have v8’s or big green parcel machines. :slight_smile:

33

trevHCS:

Winseer:
I’m amazed these gantries have not been turned on to 100% enforcement

Not sure any of those over the gantry ever work as they seem to have been replaced with those yellow ones on the side.

Agree they need to put more gantry ones on there and include red X camera settings.

Are not the flashing ones at the side - just to measure speed (two flashes, as measured against the graduations marked 1metre apart on the ground…) )

The overhead ones looking down on each lane - are going to be FILMING the vehicles passing underneath, which would aid in identifying vehicles photographed in pouring rain, and the like…
They don’t need to flash as well to take a snapshot - if the side cameras are going like the clappers like those ones between J5 and J6 on the M25 are anything to go by…

34

DickyNick:

The real Biffo:
Ok, As you guys don’t know how the signals and messages (VMS = Variable Message Sign) work, let me explain.
Firstly, there are a number of systems that put up signs & signals automatically.

  1. Main one is MIDAS (Motorway Incident Detection And Signalling ) This is controlled by sensors set into the lanes or the c/way, (Wires set in each lane in what looks like a square shape approx 1 metre square. These montor the average speed of traffic flowing over them, if the average speed drops below 50mph, it will put 50’s, " CONGESTION / QUEUE CAUTION " ANY VMS with “QUEUE OR CONGESTION” is 99.9% set by MIDAS, if the speed drops below 40mph, then it will set 40’s. The system relooks at the data coming from these sensors approx every 4 mins, and if the speed is hovering around the set limit, it will adjust the speeds up one, or up to the point where it will cancel them. (It does need a number of vehicles to be constantly at that speed to take the average) now this is where you can get the anomaly of 50, 50 ,40 ,50 etc. Between that 40 and the last 50, something took the average speed right down, then started to clear so the next signal is 50, and clear after that. An exit slip with the queue tailing into lane 1 would cause this.
    NOTE; The system will NOT ALLOW allow larger step downs of more than 20 mph at a time. *** (See note)

I disagree. I’ve seen “no sign” or “60mph” change straight down to 30mph without even a flicker of 40 or 50mph in between - several times, at Darenth Interchange, for example…

  1. High winds & Fog As previously mentioned, there are weather stations set adjacent to the motorway in certain locations, high bridges, very exposed areas especially. These monitor the weather conditions and will set the signals and VMS accordingly. usually no lower than 50 mph. ***(See note)

  2. Messages " ## MILES TO J^^, ++ MINS" These again are set automatically. There are cameras, similar to ANPR, that read and note the last 3 letter of vehicle number-plates, the system then monitors how long it takes for the majority of a batch of number-plates to get to the next point, then sets the appropriate message. (PS, it’s no good trying to beat them, it will not give a better average than what 70 mph works out to)

Now we get onto the signs and signals that are set manually in the control rooms.

This all depends on the information passed to the control rooms. (Incorrect information means incorrectly set signals)

UNCONFIRMED REPORTS; Normally from member of the Public via various means, 999 call to the Police, Emergency Roadside Phones (ERT), Recovery agents. etc.
Signals are set to 50’s, with VMS set to “REPORT OF…” Unless it’s one of the following where life could be in immediate danger. “PEDESTRIANS” “ANIMALS” (i’m sure there’s another, but can’t remember at moment!) If there has been a number of calls giving the same information, and the location is tied down somewhat, the speeds can be reduced to 30’s for 2 gantries.
The one unconfirmed report that does get major signally & arses twitching! Is " ONCOMING VEHICLE" Signals are set for 20’s for a considerable distance, often on both c/ways unless confident that the correct c/way is known. Again these can only be cleared on the instruction of the Police patrol that will check for this.
CONFIRMED REPORTS
This could be a previously unconfirmed report this is now found on cctv. A report from a Police Officer, HETO, Highways road crew, or other respected source.
Once a report is CONFIRMED, then signs and signals can be amended to whatever is required to deal with the incident, IE, Lane Closures, Motorway Closures, Lower Speeds, Alternative Messages.

Saw an “animals” sign near J25 clockwise M25 the other night… There was a solitary deer using the grass verge between the on-slip of J26 and the main clockwise carriageway in the end… Didn’t see anything else.
I see “Pedestrians” more often - but have yet to see any of the anticipated drunks staggering around in the middle of the road.

NOTE: WHEN SIGNALS ARE SET WHAT-SO-EVER, THEY CAN ONLY BE CLEARED / AMENDED ON THE INSTRUCTIONS OF THE POLICE / HETO PATROL ON SCENE, NO-ONE ELSE.

So, if there’s been a “REPORT OF DEBRIS” between J32 to J33 of the M6, 50’s and VMS set to “REPORT OF DEBRIS” they can’t be cleared until a patrol has checked all 13½ miles of c/way, probably with a rolling block on so traffic can be stopped if needed to. (This is why it’s so important to use the marker-post numbers)

Any Lane closures set with a red circle around it, be it a ‘Red X’ or a 'wicket ’ TII ’ It is set for a reason, and it is mandatory, you will now 90% of the time be booked for disobeying it.

***(Note) I’ve said that signals will normally only go down as far as 40’s automatically, there are a couple of exceptions, these are were there is a speed restriction already in place for normal running. Ie, Roadworks, or tight curves. if there is already a speed limit on these for normal running, the system can’t set higher speeds, it’s starting point is now the limit set.
I’ve also said that the system will only allow step downs of 20 mph at a time, it looks at what has been manually set on a signal and set preceding signals accordingly. Lets look at a 3 lane motorway, with lanes 1 & 2 closure set before the incident (Minimum distance to incident is 300 yds, or set 2 signals the same) if the gantries are relatively close, tHE SYSTEM will set the one before it, lanes 1 & 2 as lane divert right, with 30’s over lane 3. the signal before that one will go to 50’s, so that 3 gantries set, with whatever message is picked from the template list.(ie accident) As traffic builds up and starts to queue, the gantries prior to these 3, will now start to be set by MIDAS.
If however you are on a motorway with long distances between signals (Ie normally the ‘hockey stick’ type from the grass verge, then the signal prior to the one with the lane closure will set to 50’s, until MIDAS knocks it down to 40’s

Any signs and signals set in the Regional Control rooms are closely monitored, they have to be set within a couple of minutes from the start of the log, and they have to be cleared within 3 minutes of the Patrol requesting clearance. (The system itself takes it’s time especially if it’s busy) Any operator missing these times are put for retraining.
MESSAGE SIGNS (VMS)
Sometimes you will see messages informing you of motorway closure miles & miles away, or of Events that could cause problems in a date yet to come, you’ll also see campaign messages, “is you car ready for winter” “watch for bikes” “Check your fuel” etc. All these are set by the ‘NATIONAL TRAFFIC INFORMATION CENTRE’ Down there in the Midlands, they also inform the media of any incidents on the HE nework that are potentially long running problems. They also update & control the ‘TRAFFIC ENGLAND’ Website.

I know it’s been like War & Peace, but if you’re aware of how it works, you’ll have a better understanding of it.

So MIDAS is basically when drivers can’t drive, control speed correctly, bunch up together, not have decent spaces so they all have to slam on when someone changes lane and slow the average speed of that lane, thus triggering a speed limit change which everyone else then moans is there for no reason and there to make money.

35

The system is actually very clever, It can differentiate between 3 types of vehicles, car size, light goods size, and heavy goods size (I’m not in front of it at the moment (In fact I’m retired!) so can’t get the definitions as stated) but it’s basically on vehicle length. It also can log vehicle numbers & type in each lane, as per hour, day, or week. That’s at EVERY MIDAS pad. that’s why it can tell you that the part of the M60 between J15 (M61 and J18 Simister ) is just as busy at peak times as the busiest part of the M25.
Normal day-time running, you’ve got enough cars etc travelling faster than 50 mph so MIDAS doesn’t trigger unless there are queues forming, but it can however get tricked sometimes when it’s very quiet during the night if a very slow HGV wide load say passes over the MIDAS pads, it can trigger them to set speeds, it then needs an amount of traffic at or just over that posted speed to reset the signals. This doesn’t happen very often, usually with a wide load + ■■■■■■, but it can.
Another point is, Motorways run on Marker-post locations, when a road works are put on (overnight usually) the Foreman of the roadworks crew will pass the marker-posts for the start & end of his roadworks to the RCC, the RCC operator will then set up the system in that area as follows, its called the “Four call procedure”
!) First call, the roadworks foreman gives the markerpost for start & end of the roadworks to the RCC operator, and what lanes he requires closing. The operator will normally ask him if he needs the signals right away or if he’ll call back when ready. (They have been told not to phone until ready for the signals)
The operator then disables the MIDAS pads throughout the area between the marker-posts given, (This stops any MIDAS setting signals because of roadworks vehicles being stopped inside the area) They will set the required lane closures as requested. The RCC op will also set the HDS (Highest Displayable Speed) on all the signals within the marker-posts to at the most 50, or 10 mph less than any mandatory speed limit in the roadworks. In other words, if there is a 50 mph speed limit signed at the roadworks (Common on smart motorway working) the HDS will be set to 40, so if there is an incident within the roadworks, and you would normally set 50’s for an unconfirmed incident, it will only show 40’s, nothing higher.
The roadworks crews will then put up their signage, and the traffic management (cones to you)
2) Once all the traffic management is in place, all signage is out, the rwks foreman called the 2nd time, and the signals are cancelled.
…Whatever the roadworks are for, happens…
3) The work is completed, so the rwks foreman calls again to get the electronic signals reset to whatever lane closures are in place.
(Now this is the bit that sometimes can cause drivers to think that signals have been left on)
The rwks crew remove the cones and traffic management for lane closure, then they have to go forwards to the next junction, turn around, go back to the previous junction, come back up to remove their hard signage for the 1 mile, 800, 600, 400, 200, etc signs that they’d put in place for the closure, On an ‘ordinary’ overnight closure it’s not a problem, because they only put the signage on the N/S of the c/way, so the electronic signs can be cleared of lane closure, possibly being set for speeds whilst the hard signage is removed, but for a roadworks that’s been on for some time, with signage in the central reservation as well. it’s common that signals remain on whilst these are removed, even then knobhead drivers will run into road workers and kill them… I digress!
4) Once all the roadworks are completed, all the traffic management is removed, the rwks foreman calls up, the signals are cleared, the MIDAS pads are reactivated, the HDS is reset back to normal and all is well with the world.

The things that can go wrong with roadworks settings.
They stray out of the declared marker posts, put their closure on before the start marker post given so midas is activated by the roadworks vehicles.
They’ll call for signals and not be in the location, so signals are set for lane closures but no-one there.
They’ll forget to call in the 2nd time and signals are left on whilst the hard signage is doing the job anyway. (Not really a problem, just a waste)
They’ll remove the closure without calling in for signals to be reset, then bugger off as everything is removed, meanwhile the HDS is still set lower, MIDAS is deactivated.
They’ll get the signals set for removing the closure, clear the traffic management, then bugger off, forgetting call number 4. So signals are still set for lane closures, HDS is still set lower, MIDAS is still disabled., until an operator notices that the roadworks has gone over the booked time so calls the rwks foreman to find out he’s at home tucked up in bed!

The odd time that one of these problems occur is usually with a new contractor that’s not completely switched onto the 4 call procedure, if problems are found, they very soon get educated! 95% of the time it works.

Although some areas where roadworks are set are covered by CCTV to a degree, certainly not all are, there are a lot of rwks jobs put on overnight. I worked in the NW RCC, we put an average of 45 roadworks jobs on each night,( 4 calls per job) along with dealing with all the normal stuff, RTC’s, Breakdowns, Debris etc. there were 5 operators (sometimes only 3) on a night shift to deal with it all, with 14 motorways to look after. You just don’t have time or resources to check every job.

36

Washwipe:

mm1988:

toonsy:
Is it not just easier and less tine consuming to drop to 50mph? It would’ve cost seconds instead of hours/days/weeks contesting a potential fine.

Yeah I get the point and it can be frustrating and leads people into ignoring gantry info because it’s wrong/not turned off when it’s finished with etc but ultimately it’s a few seconds lost and a few clicks of the CC and that’s it.

I’m sure you can contest it but you’ll need to spend time gathering evidence etc and ultimately they could say it was down to 50mph for any number of spurious safety reasons and its then game over for any challenge.

You’re right it’s not worth the hassle but it really annoys me. I was on the M6 near Birmingham last week about half 4 in the morning and 1 gantry was set to 30mph. Again there was hardly any other traffic on the road and the gantry happened to have a camera on it.

Of course if there is a genuine reason for it I have no problem with them being on like around Leeds in an afternoon when it’s busy and the cameras are flashing constantly, people deserve to get caught but when there is nothing on the road it really annoys me.

Also I slowed down to 50mph this morning and the tipper in front didn’t seem to be going much faster but it was enough to trigger the camera. Does anyone how much over the limit the camera’s are set?

Like many on here I spend most of my time on Mways, never seen a gantry sign at 30mph, even when the traffic has been crawling, never seen it below 40mph.
Normally they go 60, 50, 40 and then up again, never seen them go straight to 50 unless joining from a slip road to an existing limit.

I have seen them as low as 30mph several times which is quite frankly ridiculous. On the M1 when I got stuck for 3 hours because of a fatality and once on the M1/M25 slip road down to 30mph the second one for no apparent reason.

37

Thank you Biffo

38

I have seen them as low as 30mph several times which is quite frankly ridiculous. On the M1 when I got stuck for 3 hours because of a fatality and once on the M1/M25 slip road down to 30mph the second one for no apparent reason.

There can be only 2 reasons that the signals have gone this low, the accompanying VMS message would tell you.

  1. If they’d been set manually by a control room op, the message would have, Accident, Obstruction, Pedestrians, or similar. Pedestrians are a big problem at night, you can get a report of peds, drunk, children what-ever, with a marker post location, or even glimpse them on CCTV. This type of ped is obviously a bigger risk than a guy walking down the H/S with a petrol can. It’s not uncommon for kids to play chicken, running across the c/way. As I said in “War & Peace” for something with a known location and high risk, up to 2 signals can be set to 30 mph. They can’t be cleared until the risk has either been removed, or confirmed as ‘no trace’

  2. If it’s been set automatically it would have “Queue” somewhere in the message. It would be in an area that has a speed restriction on already, so the HDS would be set down 10 mph below the limit, if MIDAS is triggered, it can step down up to 2 x 20 mph steps. So the speed restriction in place there is 50 mph normally, HDS is set at 40 mph (no good having it at 50 mph, you’re already restricted to 50 mph, so a signal at that is no warning at all) If MIDAS is then triggered by a queue, it could read 40 mph firstly, then even go down to 20 mph if speeds got that low. and we’ve all experienced stopped traffic that then starts again, but there was no apparent reason for it stopping in the first place, MIDAS is reacting to this, but will need an amount of traffic passing over it to lift the speeds.

39

I’ve seen them at 30 a few times but never a jump straight to 30. Always 50, then 40, then 30.

40

Considering how dirty cars get on motorways, and how much dirt and dust is flying around - if these signs are all sensor driven - what happens when the sensors get dirty ■■?

I’m tempted to pop to Poland and get a set of Polish plates from a friendly local garage to pop on my car ! :smiley: The Eastern European drivers must get away with so much on our roads since they can’t be found on the system !!