Wtd march '05 - any real changes?

[tom9851]

I would be interested to know your views on two questions…

1. Do you believe that come next March when the 48-hour week comes into force, wages will increase in this industry?

2. Do you believe that the WTD will create a “real” driver shortage - I know that reading the many posts on the question of whether there really is a shortage seems to result in many different views - but presumably the WTD really WILL create such a shortage and if so could this mean that newly qualified drivers could find it easier to get taken on by companies, who mostly seem very reluctant to do so? Or could it be that the WTD will not have the profound effect that many predict because I would have thought that given we are only talking about a year from now that many firms would have been desperately trying to recruit or train up drivers to make sure they were not “caught short” come March '05. So far I have seen precious little evidence of this!

Thanks for your views.

Tom

[Lasurazes]

Good questions, Ive only got opinions of course, nobody really knows where it will end up yet.

1. It already has done to a limited extent I think, there have been a couple of deals reported on in the Commercial Motor suggesting this, will it be widespread? I dunno.

2. It stands a chance that to get the same journeys done that are currently done by 1 bloke doing max hours, the restructuring might well take on more of a trunk type thing, or a 4 on 4 off thing, either way, if that does become the case, it seems common sense to believe there will be a lot more drivers needed, 2 per motor instead of 1?

Mal.

[davey_driver]

Not only does the WTD imply changes there are also plans to reform the Drivers Hours Legislation, the changes are expected to be passed in March, to compliment the WTD but we are unsure when they will commence as it may take 18 month to implement.

I’m going off memory here but If I think rightly its as follows:

12hr daily Rest Requirements, however, the 9 hr reduction will still be available giving 3 x 15 hr shifts available in any one week, the 3 hrs reduction do no not need to be repaid by way of compensation as it currently is.

A Minimum rest of 30 minutes must be taken after no more than a 3.5 hrs driving period, a further 15 minutes after no more than a 4.5 hrs total driving period, however if after say 3.5 hr driving period you take 45 minutes, you can then continue for a further 3.5 hrs. This is to close the loophole allowing a driver to drive 8hrs 59 minutes with only a 15 minute rest period.

(Before anyone asks Drive 1 minute take 30 minutes rest, drive 4 hrs 29 minutes take 15 minute rest then drive a further 4.5 hrs)

Weekly Rest reduction from 45 hrs to 36 hrs will be abolished

The 8 hr Split Shift system will be abolished

The 24 hr rest reduction away from base will still be valid with the appropriate compensation requirements staying in place.

I.m not currently aware of any changes to the Double Manned Working Regulations at present.

[thebigone]

I think you might see more double manning of vehicles on the long journey front, to get them done (that’d do my head right in). I shouldn’t think wages will increase, as they’re going to have to pay more to get the same job done. I know a few firms who have introduced the so many days on so many days off pattern as a way to deal with the forthcoming WTD and taken on more drivers to compensate. Having said that, I can see some who will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into complying with it . I didn’t think it included mobile workers, or maybe that’s just me being dippy .

[Lasurazes]

TheBigOne:
I think you might see more double manning of vehicles on the long journey front, to get them done (that’d do my head right in).

If you mean double manning in the traditional way BigOne, e.g. 2 blokes in the cab, it wont work, because their time will run out at the same time, they’ll both be at work, even though ones just sat in the cab. Well, thats my understanding of it at least.

Mal.

[davey_driver]

Under Double Manning as it currently is Mal, you can work 22 hrs? I think off the top of my head, because your in effect taking breaks of 9 hrs whilst the other guy drives, so in effect you have 20 hours driving between both men using the 10th hour and 2 hrs other work, I did it for nearly 2 years but it’s that long since

The problem of course is like you rightly say, they will be both clocking on at the same time as they (The EC Eurocrats) are wanting “Anytime spent under the instructions of an employer” to be classed as Working Time.

Seems to me the days of the Horse and Cart are not too far off, Newcastle - London in 1 Week Aberdeen to London 2 Weeks and thats not including the return Journey Maybe thats a hidden Agenda that Brussels have, trying to Rid these Dirty Big trucks off the Roads, after all, Who Needs Them

[Lasurazes]

Horse & Carts Davey!.. hmmm, sounds nice and relaxing!

Mal.

[thebigone]

I’ve never double manned because as I say I couldn’t take being with someon else in the cab, but if it stops the practice then I’m all for it. Big respect to Davy if you did it for two years, I can’t see how you can get adequate rest in a moving vehicle (or I couldn;t anyways).

[jimti]

the biggest problem in this industry is every one waits to see what the others will do first, I asked my boss what he intends to do when the wtd comes into effect and he didn’t have a clue but in fairness to him most other bosses are the same, they have got just over a year to sort it out, but seem to be doing nothing yet. I think most are releying on drivers working normal hours for the first 11 or 12 weeks of the 17 week period then realising they won’t get paid sitting at home the bosses expect them to break the law to feed their families…I bet we won’t see much change in wages until the authorities show that they are capable of policing the hours efficiently, and I think that will be near impossible. I like the idea of life after truck,(time off with my family) but need a good income to maintain the life I have now, so any major cut in take home pay will result in me moving into a different carear.

[tc]

The 2 biggest transport companies here on Teesside have NOW adopted the 4 on 4 off

Stillers (who will be the biggest transport company in the country soon) have done it over the past year!! all staff ie drivers and fitters are now 4 on 4 off!! lots of dosh to be made at the mo because of overtime.

Imperial Tankers are now working towards 4 on 4 off but working pressures are preventing this!

thats the way its going!
no more Tramping by the looks of it!

[boots_o_lead]

Now here’s a silly idea -

Take 5 drivers

first driver goes out tramping for 4 weeks @ 60 hrs/week and then has a week off

second driver goes out tramping for 3 weeks @ 60 hrs/week, has a week off then goes out for another week tramping @ 60 hrs/week

third driver goes out for tramping for 2 weeks @ 60 hrs/week, has a week off then goes out for another 2 weeks tramping @ 60 hrs/week

fourth driver goes out tramping for a week @ 60 hrs/week, has a week off then goes out for another 3 weeks tramping @60 hrs/week

fifth driver has a week off, in week 2 he drives truck 4, in week 3 he drives truck 3, in week 4 he drives truck 2 and in week 5 he drives truck 1

drivers 1 - 4 have their ‘own’ trucks

driver 5 is a great guy, everybody loves him, he doesn’t have his own wagon but he looks after the kit he uses and gets on very well with drivers 1 - 4

driver 6 is another great guy, he usually does another (driving) job but is able to cover holidays taken by drivers 1 - 5

what we have here is a 5 week cycle where the hours average out at 48/week as per WTD

most of the drivers have their ‘own’ wagons and the cover guys look after them when they use them

everybody is happy, the hours worked overall haven’t changed and the jobs get done

all that is required over and above what you have today is 1, or 2 max, extra driver per 4 vehicles

Oh! and to make this work - everybody is on salary, the week off is not holiday time but in lieu of time already worked, and there is still a standard holiday entitlement

Any problems - convincing office staff that the drivers aren’t getting more time off than the office staff are, they are just working different hours

To use that hackneyed cliche of the MTV generation - IF YOU’RE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, YOU’RE PART OF THE PROBLEM

Try suggesting it to your boss - who knows he may listen

[dafmad]

Boots O’Lead:
Now here’s a silly idea -

Nice idea, you’ll get 10 weeks off a year. I bagsy being Driver 1-4, with my own wagon.
I appreciate where you are coming from, but if there is one thing about it, you can never narrow it down that much.
Theory and Practice never seem to be the same in this job.

[boots_o_lead]

Dafmad

The problem here is that you wouldn’t be getting 10 weeks off a year in terms of holidays, which is how everyone else would perceive it, because it’s time you’ve already worked.

As I see it at the moment, we work the hours we do because we have to - it’s a simple time and distance equation in most cases. The general perception is this:-

The working week is 5/6 days.
Standard holidays are 4 weeks per year (believe that and you’ll believe anything )
We are limited by law to 9/10 hours driving per day.
Goods have to be transported from A to B.

So in general employers will use drivers within these boundary conditions. If the perception is changed to reflect the fact that the working week is 48 hrs then there is no reason why you shouldn’t be able to work for 9 months followed by 3 months off, except for the legal restrictions.

All this bleating about long hours/low pay won’t change the fact that most employers will extract the urine because the system lets them. The WTD is going to happen and not much is going to be different from what we already know about it. That means that attitudes are going to have to change. Why not try to help your boss by suggesting ways to make the most of it.

I can see 2 basic solutions, one I have outlined in my previous post and the other is 4 on/4 off. My idea requires 1or 2 extra drivers per 4 vehicles, 4 on/4 off requires an extra 4 drivers per 4 vehicles. Which is going to be more cost effective, which is going to keep the drivers happier - you decide, but unless the bosses know the options and embrace the changes all that’s going to happen is lots of trouble and strife. And as we all know, s… roll down hill!

There will be other ways to solve the problems thrown up by the WTD but the only way the drivers won’t get (zb) on (will this pass the censor ) is by being involved and being part of the solution.

I have never liked that MTV phrase but this is the first time I’ve seen where it actually fits.

It’s just an opinion

(now all I’ve got to do is upgrade my licence, get a PROPER driving job and work on putting ideas into practise )

Jules

past the censor yes past the admin no mrs mix

[boots_o_lead]

Sorry about that but I couldn’t think of a more appropriate word at the time

Jules

[dafmad]

Boots O’lead,
I for one appreciate your thinkng positive. Obviously, there aren’t enough drivers for every company to have a 4 on 4 off system. and therefore your system makes more sense. But, I stress, only in theory. Having said that, I certainly don’t know what the answer is.
With your system, there is the age old problem of Drivers wages, if he or she was to only work nine months of the year, the chances are they will only receive nine months wages at todays rates. Otherwise, everyones wages will have to go up by 25%.

[boots_o_lead]

Dafmad

I appreciate what you’re saying, but one of the points I’m trying to push forward here is that you get paid for the time you work, not the time you have off. To illustrate this point I offer the following:

An office/factory/whatever worker works 40 hrs/week for 48 weeks/year = 1920 hrs

A driver works 48 hrs/week for 40 weeks/year = 1920 hrs

The difference in time worked…nothing
The difference in time taken to do the work…3 months

The other worker has regulated breaks (in the case of warehouse staff, usually when I turn up to get tipped ) and all the facilities to make life comfortable - canteen, toilets, powered manual handling equipment, etc. - and every effort is made to provide for a safe working environment.

The driver has very little of this and has to work in a potentially very dangerous environment (especially when you take the putting on makeup/having a shave/reading the paper/too busy talking to the sales rep/wife whilst doing 60 in the centre lane muppets) and so is worth a decent salary

It is mostly a case of educating the bosses to see this. By introducing salary as opposed to hourly pay you spread the payments over the whole year. The driver can plan his/her finances and the haulier knows his costs on a monthly basis.

I’m not saying “do this, it is the panacea”, I’m saying “here’s an idea, if it fits - suggest it, if it doesn’t then find another solution”

By the way, my idea won’t work where I am at the moment but with proper route planning we don’t need to change to accomodate the WTD

Not trying to have a go, just trying to get my thoughts across

Jules

[cbr_si]

1 Question -

do the 48 hours relate to Working Hours or Driving Hours? The reason I ask this is that, take today - start 5 am, drive to Collection, arrive 8am ( 3hours drive). tip takes until 9.30 (1 and half hours), drive to docks 9.30 - 12 (2.5 hours, ■■■■■■■■■■ 5.5), at docks 12.00 to 13.00 (1 hr ■■■■■■■■■■ 2.5 hours not driving), drive to next tip 13.00 - 14.30 (1.5 hrs, rolling 7 hours), 14.30 - 16.00 (1.5hrs rolling 4 hours), drive to yard via docks due to c*ck up in office 16.00 - 18.00 (2hrs rolling 9 hours)

this means 9 hours driving, 4 hours waiting, ie 13 hours working - 4 days off this kind of schedule would exceed the wtd!

ps in case u wondered i did round up or down for this illustration to nearest 5-10 mins to keep it simple lol

[boots_o_lead]

CBR_Si

Unless I’m mistaken the WTD is about working time, which is why so many comments keep appearing in the press about ‘how can we exempt waiting time’ a.k.a. how the employers can work you like a dog but not pay you to sit around bored s…(insert appropriate filling here)…s at some DC or warehouse

Jules

[muckles]

This is the WTD from http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_freight/documents/page/dft_freight_022954.hcsp

The directive includes:

Weekly “working time” is restricted to an average 48 hour week and a maximum 60 hours in any single week.
There is no “opt-out” for individuals wishing to work longer than an average 48 hour week, but break periods and ‘periods of availability’ do not count as working time.

Periods of availability include accompanying a vehicle on a ferry crossing and waiting for a vehicle to be loaded / unloaded. However, drivers need to be notified in advance about these periods (i.e. just before the start of the period in question), and their approximate duration. For mobile workers driving in a team, it includes time spent sitting next to the driver while the vehicle is in motion.

Night workers are limited to 10 hours work in each 24 hour period.
Derogations are available for Member States under the Road Transport Directive. Under certain circumstances, derogations can be permitted from the 10 hour daily limit for night work, and increase the reference period for the 48 hour average week can also be increased from 4 to 6 months.
There is no derogation from the 60 hour maximum week.

Breaks Workers must have a break after 6 hours. A break of 30 minutes is required for 6-9 hours work; 45 minutes for over 9 hours. Breaks can be divided into 15 minute slots. Where mixed driving and working is carried out, the drivers’ hours rules on breaks (EC/3820/85) take precedence.

Rest: Same as drivers’ hours rules (EC/3820/85) or failing that, the AETR Agreement - but also applies to trainees.
Self-employed drivers who do not satisfy the criteria under the definition of the “self-employed driver” will be covered from 2009. Under this definition, self-employed drivers should have a “community licence or any other professional authorisation to carry out aforementioned transport…, are not tied to an employer by employment contract or by any other type of hierarchical relationship…, whose income depends directly on the profits made…, [and] has commercial relations with several customers”.
Member States are required to introduce penalties that are “effective, proportional and dissuasive”.

Of course it up to member states to police this, so the UK will police it by the letter of the agreement, whilst other countries will not. level playing field, I should coco.

[bonditram]

muckles:
This is the WTD from http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_freight/documents/page/dft_freight_022954.hcsp

The directive includes:

Weekly “working time” is restricted to an average 48 hour week and a maximum 60 hours in any single week.
There is no “opt-out” for individuals wishing to work longer than an average 48 hour week, but break periods and ‘periods of availability’ do not count as working time.

Periods of availability include accompanying a vehicle on a ferry crossing and waiting for a vehicle to be loaded / unloaded.
.

This is the bit most are missing. ‘break and availability are not working time’. We had it here in France with the 35 (remember average) hr week.
The only difference it made - we cut out Saturday washing down and got a day or two off towards the end of the month. The working week was as long as ever.

Salut, David.