i was really [zb]ed off the other day.
every day the digi tacho was showing about 30 to 60 minutes extra driving than i’d actually done.
roughly translated it’s about 3 to 6 minutes per hour out of tune.
ok, this dosn’t sound much. but 3minutes X 10hours=30 minutes. 6minutes X 10 hours = 1 hour. Now that’s a [zb]in big problem.
there are drivers who run bent and don’t give a [zb] about the regs. then there are the others, who were once 99% legal, but now they could end up in court, and end up fined, imprisoned, etc.
it’s easy to say, oh just do a printout. WHY? if you havn’t done 9 or 10 hours driving, then you havn’t done 9 or 10 hours driving, no matter what the tacho says.
so what i’m going to do over the next four weeks is keep a diary with the digi tacho hours, and actual hours driven each day. then post the results on here.
i would like some of the members of this forum to do the same.
the reason for this is simple.
if anyone on here ends up in court, they can produce what we put as evidence. then hopefully if a judge dismisses digital tachograph evidence because we have proved beyond all reasonable doubt, that they are inacurate, then they may all be reprogrammed.
this is the only way i can see anything positive happening.
p.s. always plead not guilty. i have a fail safe defence for legitamate tacho offences. so if you end up in the [zb] let me know.
appologies for posting a serious topic for a change.
I always found that the digi tacho was a great bit of kit if doing long distance driving without many stops (A to break to B) as it cancelled out carrying tacho cards, then having 28 days worth, having scracthed tachos etc etc, but if stuck in traffic or doing multi drops there no use as they dont stop cclocking up until the next full minute, IE:- Drive 5mins 2 secs it’ll actually go to the next full minute which is 6mins.
Apparently there’s a “new generation” tacho being planned, but this is what I said in the “Where does the time go” thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50355
dambuster:
DS074:
On Friday I set off from Leeds depot (1 minute from M1) swapped a trailer at coca cola at J41 then started heading for Morrisons at Burton Latimer. As I was passing J39 Denby Dale I noticed my driving time on the tacho and I couldnt believe it. At best I would of done 20-25 mins driving, but because of all the stop starting in yard/coke it was actually 1 hour and 12 minutes! By the time I had reached Burton Latimer with a stop for a paper it was 3 hours 34 mins.
Now just looked on Google Maps and its only 130 miles which means I have averaged 34 mph…even though I never got held up on motorway or A14.
Just got me wondering…I used to do a job years ago where before we went anywhere, 3 of us used to move a load of trailers round yard ready for when loaders came in. With new digital tacho, doing this, would it actually show more driving time than duty time after all the shunts?
I read it as being irrelevant to the In Scope/Out of scope bits.
I think it’s more to do with the “time-theft” committed by the machine.
Now, before those cleverer than me start rolling their eyes, I’m not talking about the rounding up of minutes or any magical back-calculations we’re told they can manage.
I’m talking about them not registering small periods of stationary activity. And that’s NOT REGISTERING — at all.
Obviously, if I’m in a traffic jam, shunting stop/start/stop/start; or if I’m sat at a particularly badly phased traffic light on red, then I’m still “driving” Regardless of any urban myth about handbrakes/parking brakes.
But . . . . . . . . . . The period before the machine decides I’ve stopped, and allocates time to that stop, is far too long.
I’ll give you two documented examples (I’ve been collecting “documentary evidence” for a couple of months, and will continue to do so until such time that I have to through myself on the mercy of the court )
Leave a yard at the beginning of a day to drive to another yard.
Pull into a BP service station to buy milk. Walk across the forecourt. Get milk from the fridge. Wait my turn behind one person. Pay for milk, and ask for till receipt (Machine printed, including time and date) Walk back across forecourt.
Question. Am I driving ?
Complete my journey to the other yard.
Take a print out. A dated and timed print out.
No record of stopping. Only two lines of text. One showing 54 minutes of continuous driving, the other showing the whole minute I waited before printing.
Similar, but far more entertaining. Start work in the morning, drive a good while to get to Felixstowe. Straight onto dock to the In gates. No queue. Straight under the canopy to book in. Get out and walk all the way round to undo twistlocks. Give my booking reference to the checker and confirm loaded status and seal number. Walk the 30/40 yards into the building. Hand paperwork to the dude inside. He checks the info, I give him details of the box I want for import, and he prints off two A4 sheets of Dock Interchanges. I sign one and leave to walk the 30/40 yards back and set off for my export slot.
Knowing I’d driven “a good while” to get there, I put it on break, wait 2 minutes then do a print off to check my driving time. Guess what ? Three hours driving. No stationary periods until the one showing me on break.
I agree that the machine can’t know whether I’m sat at traffic lights or whether I’m stood at the side of the motor taking a quick ■■■■ in a layby. But I do think the time period before it “lets you be stood” in far too long.
scottishcruiser:
I always found that the digi tacho was a great bit of kit if doing long distance driving without many stops (A to break to B) as it cancelled out carrying tacho cards, then having 28 days worth, having scracthed tachos etc etc, but if stuck in traffic or doing multi drops there no use as they dont stop cclocking up until the next full minute, IE:- Drive 5mins 2 secs it’ll actually go to the next full minute which is 6mins.
I dont get it, as the above post acurately says, if you drive 5 mins 2 secs, then isnt it therefore illegal for the equipment to say you have done 6 mins as you obviously haven’t?
Its illegal for a driver to try and show less driving time than actual, so why should it not work the other way?
scottishcruiser:
I always found that the digi tacho was a great bit of kit if doing long distance driving without many stops (A to break to B) as it cancelled out carrying tacho cards, then having 28 days worth, having scracthed tachos etc etc, but if stuck in traffic or doing multi drops there no use as they dont stop cclocking up until the next full minute, IE:- Drive 5mins 2 secs it’ll actually go to the next full minute which is 6mins.
I dont get it, as the above post accurately says, if you drive 5 mins 2 secs, then isnt it therefore illegal for the equipment to say you have done 6 mins as you obviously haven’t?
Its illegal for a driver to try and show less driving time than actual, so why should it not work the other way?
As usual, UK up EU and [zb] ing IT all UP
EDIT:
And since when did the letters F and K constitute a swear word?
I have been having the same problems, I do long distance and multidrop and I find the digi adds around 30 minutes a day to my hours. I use a davey hour gaurd and I get into trouble usually at the end of a ten hour day. I have been ten 18 and ten 12 the last few times.
I get told to use a printout as well but like you say , If you havent done the time , why do the time !
buy a timer,run it along side digi, the digi will soon show more drive time than timer,each time this happens make a printout just keep three or four make a note on back then when you are to be prosecuted produce the said timer and your printouts ,it will get dropped a minute is a minute eu might have a longer one but the rest of the world dont take notice of it
Just bear in mind the digi and the printout are going to say them same thing…
There is not a court in this land that will back you up using a hour guard/egg timer etc…
Its wrong, we know its wrong, VOSA know its wrong, yet wont admit to that…
This whole digi thing has been rushed through, technology is out there for it to be 100% accurate, but for some reason, and far be it from me to suggest financial gain for VOSA/Goverment etc, its not being implemented. To my mind the old tacho disc system was far more accurate…
In the old system , if the wheels moved , the tacho turned . In the new system if the wheels turn , the digi says two minutes !!
I was told by my office that the tach has a far more sensitive cabability but they dont let us have acces to it. If you are involved in a crash they say that the tacho is accurate enough to pinpoint the exact time you applied your brakes ! (within two minutes either way ) and therefore be used in evidence either against you or for you depending on your reactions! dont know if that true just what the tacho lady in the office tells us when were downloading.
heres a few days of what the digital spackergraph tells me, and what it should tell me.
and before anyone says i don’t do much driving, they were all long days of load this, tranship that, wait for him he dosn’t know how to load that, etc, etc.
it’s an EU stealth tax. they decided to trick us into paying fines.
ok, there’s nothing illegal in the times i have given you, but when things go back to me doing a full drive each day, then a 9 could be a 10 and a 10 could be an 11.
and i wil drive a full 9 or 10, no matter what the thing says. the law says i can drive for 9 and 10 hours, so that’s what i’ll do, even if it says i’ve done 11 hours, when i know i’ve only done 9.5, then i’ll keep going.
if i keep a record of the actual times, then i am legal.
Yes I know the tacho robs you of time but just use what it tells you as the time you’ve used and if you have to stop for a break then you have to stop for a break.
tofer:
Yes I know the tacho robs you of time but just use what it tells you as the time you’ve used and if you have to stop for a break then you have to stop for a break.
why?
if you havn’t done 4.5 hours, 9 hours, or 10 hours. then you havn’t done it.
these things are costing the industry millions, and this will increase. i just can’t see the point of rolling over and saying, “i will obey the tacho”. when it dosn’t work properly.
it is even more important in these troubled times to do everything you can to keep the company you work for afloat. the more drivers who dig their heals in, saying “i can’t do this or that” just because the dodgy tacho says somthing, knowing that it is wrong, then the EU has won in its’ plight to bring the haulage industry down. then they will say we can’t cope, and they will push for more freight on rail.
I agree with you entirely Phil, however if the tacho says you’ve done 10 hours 18 minutes then you’ve done 10 hours 18 minutes, if you don’t believe me then ask the next VOSA man you encounter.
Done some reading on these things from when I got one and noticed the same discrepancies. It appears that the digi does exactly what the EU body responsible asked for it to do, so it times to whole minute by design. It counts, obviously in seconds, so to my mind it cannot be a major software change to make it account in seconds. I don’t want to run bent, but I don’t want to lose valuable driving (earning) time. Let it default to other work whenever the wheels stop turning to satisfy the working time directive, just give us back our driving time. Incidentally, has anybody contacted their MP on this subject?
tofer:
I agree with you entirely Phil, however if the tacho says you’ve done 10 hours 18 minutes then you’ve done 10 hours 18 minutes, if you don’t believe me then ask the next VOSA man you encounter.
the vosa man may tell you that. however, he is not a judge or a jury.
if you havn’t driven for 10 hours 18 minutes, then you havn’t. as long as you keep a written record, then you are completely legal.
i have been pulled many times, i have been over my hours many times. but i show them my diary, and then it’s all ok.
but it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest if i went to court. i quite enjoy court appearences. i held up the magistartes court for hours, i was defending myself over a bald tyre. it should have been a quick in and out job. but not with me.
Dunno whether this is relevant but i always keep track of my driving hours/breaks etc in my diary and have always until a couple of weeks back used the Siemans DigiTach…i always go off what is on the screen as to my driving and rest time and pretty much 99% of the time it is spot on to what i have calculated,more times than not its me,as the thing sometimes adds a minute when you come to a stop and i’ve written it down before its turned over,but nevertheless im within a minute or 2 at the end of the day …i had the mis-fortune of using a Stoneridge for a week, and EVERYDAY it was out by anything upto 12 minutes…and that was also using the display on the screen to work out how much i’d driven etc!!!..nowadays with the Siemans i dont bother doing printouts cause like i said i work it out myself,but can TOTALLY understand how people go over their hours if like the Stoneridge the thing aint ■■■■■■■ accurate and adds minutes on willy nilly
DonutUK:
Today the Driver hours guard shows 7h41m driving…digi printout…7h55m.
can see your point ■■■■■,but i cant see why you are using a Drivers Hour Guard,when you have a Digi Tacho cause the DHG is totally irrelevant,so are stopwatches and anything else you care to use??..there is NO point whatsoever…its all or nothing as the DigiTach is what you have to work from…not??
I see drivers all the time incapable of working their own hours out and how much they’ve driven or had on break,still using stop watches or hour guards…when the thing tells you everything you need to know,and with half a brain there’s really no excuse to go over your hours…everybody slags DigiTachs off,but to me they are the easiest things to operate…pretty much fool proof when it comes to keeping track of your hours…yeah they add on a coulpe of minutes driving if you move within 2 minutes of stopping,but its still plain to see how much driving you’ve done.
even with analogue Tachos.all I used was a stopwatch on my phone and just wrote down the time i started and finished my break,how much driving i’d done when i had that break and that then told me how much driving i had left…very very rarely i got infringments and if i did,i knew i had and endorsed the back for whatever reason
start rolling their eyes, I’m not talking about the rounding up of minutes or any magical back-calculations we’re told they can manage.
