Digi tacho diary

This is nothing new to me. I noticed it a couple of years ago Phil when i did some agency work for Woodsides.

I use a kitchen timer to keep a check on my time. GEnerally speaking, IF i remember to stop & start it, it accords reasonably well with an analogue tacho. The digi tach, on days including quite a few trailer swaps & general messing about, would grab over an hour more than my timer.

Remember if you move the truck for 30 seconds & during that 30 seconds its clock crosses a calender minute, it will record 2 mins.
Stopping at Traffic Lights or in stop/start traffic, analogue stops recording, digi keeps recording for upto 2 minutes.

The government are aware of the discrepancies & ran some some trials at large operators running digi & analogue equipped trucks side by side on the same runs. Unfortunately i never heard at which companies this was done or what the outcome was.
I guess if the outcome had been that there was little or no difference, we’d have been reading about it everywhere, but as nobodys heard anything… draw your own conclusions.

how come some of you think that you must go off what the digi tacho says?
if the digi tacho says you have done 10 hours driving, but you know you’ve only done 9 hours, then you have another hour to go.
we can all prove beyond all reasonable doubt, that these things are not fit for purpose. so as long as you keep a written record regarding the differences between the two, then you have nothing to worry about.

i think the most important thing, is to find the results of the “OFFICIAL” study.
But will they be published? i doubt it.

limeyphil:
how come some of you think that you must go off what the digi tacho says?
if the digi tacho says you have done 10 hours driving, but you know you’ve only done 9 hours, then you have another hour to go.
we can all prove beyond all reasonable doubt, that these things are not fit for purpose. so as long as you keep a written record regarding the differences between the two, then you have nothing to worry about.

i think the most important thing, is to find the results of the “OFFICIAL” study.
But will they be published? i doubt it.

it still makes NO difference whatsoever even if an official study has been done…and IF it has and the conclusion from that is that all fitted Digi’s have to be re-calibrated or changed,then until that time we have to live with things as they are until its decided by a higher force that they need to be changed…at the present time if the Digitacho says you’ve done 10 hrs driving,then you’ve done 10 hrs driving as far as the law goes otherwise there’s no point in having one is there??..if you are involved in an accident or tugged by VOSA,then they’ll be checking your Tacho,not going off what YOU think of many hours you’ve driven,how much rest you’ve had or how fast you were going etc…yeah they do add on a few minutes here and there,but until something is done about it or they are changed in some way then you just have to live with the fact that they are what you are working to and thats that :wink: :wink:

the way it takes 2 minutes driving at a time is annoying,especially for me queuing on the Docks even when i’ve only moved for 5 seconds etc…but when at traffic lights or stuck in traffic on the motorway or wherever, you are still in charge of the vehicle and theoretically DRIVING,not on other work…so i really cant see what the problem is :confused: :confused:

limeyphil:
heres a few days of what the digital spackergraph tells me, and what it should tell me.

tuesday 8th sept. digi… 6hrs. 25mins…actual 5hrs. 40mins.
wednesday 9th… digi… 6 hrs. 27mins…actual 6hrs. 10mins.
thursday 10th… digi… 6 hrs. 32mins…actual 6hrs. 11mins.
friday 11th…digi… 7hrs. 1min…actual 6hrs. 13mins.

sunday 13th…digi…4hrs.48mins…actual 4hrs. 40mins.
monday 14th…digi…8hrs. 58mins…actual 8hrs. 31mins.
tuesday 15th…digi…8hrs. 56mins…actual 8hrs. 5mins.
wednesday 16th…digi…5hrs. 36mins…actual 5hrs. 10mins.
thurday 17th…digi…8hrs. 16mins…actual 7hrs. 12mins.

Right I will say this first as last…I HAVE NEVER USED A DIGI CARD. But-

1- Using an example like Phil has above I think I am right in assuming that a report off the vehicle gps tracker that more and more trucks are having fitted would correspond more with actual hours than digi hours so could that not be used if ever a court case was ever undertaken■■?

2- Does it record the kilometeres correctly?

Or am I totally up the wrong tree■■?

Coddy:
There is not a court in this land that will back you up using a hour guard/egg timer etc…

hmm,dont know about that one coddy,if it can be proved in court that a digi tacho makes up its own time(ie add on)and is therefore not accurate,and not measuring drivers hours in real time,i cannot see a court in the land backing that up.i for one would definetley fight all the way on this matter.courts can only make judgements on the facts given before them,and we all know that whilst digi tachos are easy to use,their time keeping skills are inaccurate.

tofer:
I agree with you entirely Phil, however if the tacho says you’ve done 10 hours 18 minutes then you’ve done 10 hours 18 minutes, if you don’t believe me then ask the next VOSA man you encounter.

as above!

Darby Flyer:

scottishcruiser:
I always found that the digi tacho was a great bit of kit if doing long distance driving without many stops (A to break to B) as it cancelled out carrying tacho cards, then having 28 days worth, having scracthed tachos etc etc, but if stuck in traffic or doing multi drops there no use as they dont stop cclocking up until the next full minute, IE:- Drive 5mins 2 secs it’ll actually go to the next full minute which is 6mins.

Darby Flyer:

scottishcruiser:
I always found that the digi tacho was a great bit of kit if doing long distance driving without many stops (A to break to B) as it cancelled out carrying tacho cards, then having 28 days worth, having scracthed tachos etc etc, but if stuck in traffic or doing multi drops there no use as they dont stop cclocking up until the next full minute, IE:- Drive 5mins 2 secs it’ll actually go to the next full minute which is 6mins.

exactly!

Here you go, I found the results of the trials:

Digital Tachographs — Advantages and Challenges

Summary

The introduction of the digital tachograph, available from 2004 and mandated for
newly-registered trucks from spring 2006, has provided advantages for both
drivers and operators; it has also posed challenges to some operators and
uncertainties that required clarification.
A VOSA/RHA trial demonstrated that in some operations, where a driver has
been using most of his allowed hours, there may be an impact, including on the
cost and the organisation of driver shifts when the regime of the digital
tachograph is compared to accepted custom and practice with analogues.
Criticisms of the efficiency of the device are justified in terms of the ‘rounding-up’
issue but the impact of that in practical terms can be largely dismissed, based on
current extensive evidence and enforcement practice.
The ‘15-minute’ discretionary concession worked out in Brussels in late 2007
makes little if any practical difference in the UK, where a case-by-case discretion
is already applied.
The practical impact of off-road driving being included in driver’s hours records
must be borne in mind. If there is evidence that queuing practice needs to be
tightened, the RHA can highlight this issue to members and customers.

Advantages

Record keeping can be greatly simplified. Waxed paper charts are replaced by a
digital smart card and it is easier to carry, store and produce records.
Generally speaking, the driver smart card is a more robust storage medium than
the previous charts.
Centre field entries have been eliminated due to the details being transferred
automatically between card and the vehicle unit upon card insertion and
withdrawal.
Data can be rapidly analysed and compliance reports generated by either
operator-hosted software or internet-based analysis. These have been
developed to allow individuals to view their own data remotely at a time that suits
them.
Compliance with both drivers’ hour’s rules and the Road Transport Directive on
working time can be checked more rapidly, with immediate availability of the
information. Data may be transmitted electronically; most charts continue to rely
on the postal service.
Record-keeping on the vehicle unit is available for the first time with the digital
tachograph, allowing verification of driver data, both by the operator and
enforcement agencies.
Digital tachograph services have developed since introduction. The latest
generation devices allow for remote card and vehicle unit downloading via either
GPRS or WLAN, ensuring accurate data is received by the operator, despite the
vehicle being away from base for protracted periods.

Challenges

Anecdotal evidence suggested that there was considerable variance between
digital and analogue tachographs, with the digital recording significantly more
driving time. Operators reported that vehicles were running in tandem on
journeys and substantially different driving times being recorded by the two
equipment types.
Unfortunately, the records had no scientific value as there were too many
variables involved. VOSA sought to establish scientific data and the challenge
was picked up by the RHA, which identified two haulier members who were
happy to establish a trial and to open their records to inspection.
VOSA commissioned a trial involving both analogue and digital recording
equipment being fitted to a truck at two haulage firms. The trial lasted for four
weeks.

The conclusions from the trial were;

  • The digital equipment was recording exactly as the EU legislation
    intended.
  • There was a variance in recorded driving time. This amounted in most
    cases to at most 10-to-15 minutes during a working day, although on
    some runs the difference was as high as 30 minutes. The longer periods
    of variance were found on journeys that involved periods of ‘stop / start’
    driving, with short stationary periods, or where the truck was queuing on a
    motorway. A key reason for the difference is not variances in the way
    driving time is recorded; more the ■■■■■■■■■■ impact of the way analogue
    charts are often ‘cautiously’ analysed, with small movements being
    ignored.
  • The impact on individual operations could be significant, where drivers
    were running close to their 90-hour fortnightly maximum, to the extent of
    losing one driver shift, or having to put a long-distance driver on local work
    for a reduced shift, where the work is available. This was especially true
    when the impact of the inclusion off-road driving in 561/2006 was factored
    into the driving record.
  • There was a recognition by the hauliers involved in the trial that the rules
    has been tightened; and a recognition that the industry could be
    considered to have been “getting away with” some additional driving in the
    past.

The VOSA trial, arranged in partnership with the RHA, generated data comparing
analogue and digital recording that was reliable and verifiable. In practice, it
threw up few if any surprises to VOSA but it did confirm what VOSA suspected to
be the case and strengthened confidence in understanding of the application and
impact of the digital tachograph in practice. VOSA has expressed its appreciation
and thanks to the RHA and to the members involved.
How the digital tachograph records
The digital tachograph assigns a calendar minute to ‘driving’ when vehicle
movement is detected in that minute. If the vehicle unit detects signals from the
motion sensor for more than five consecutive seconds, it will record ‘driving.’
Detection of impulses is discreet rather than ■■■■■■■■■■■ In other words, a vehicle
could move a number of times in a calendar minute, each one for five seconds or
less and the digital tachograph would not record ‘driving’.
On the other hand, programming rules result in a calendar minute that is
stationary, being recorded as ‘driving’ if the calendar minutes either side of the
stationary minute are recorded as ‘driving.’ At first glance this may appear to be
perverse. However, if we consider what the action of driving actually involves,
especially in the light of R. v MacDonagh [1974] Q.B. 448 where it was ruled that
‘driving’ was the activity of sitting behind the steering wheel in order to control the
movement of the vehicle, the storage rule makes sense in the vast majority of
cases. In other words, the court was stating that we have to break the mindset
that ‘driving’ means that the vehicle is moving.
By contrast, the analogue will actually record slightly more driving time than the
digital. It will, for example, mark movements of only a second or so. In practice,
such records will usually only be taken into account in ultra-detailed forensic
analysis.
There is little difference between the analogue and digital devices in terms of
switching to record ‘other work’ when the engine is running — for example at a
customer’s premises or in a traffic jam — where there is no movement for several
minutes.
Where a driver is going over his hours unexpectedly, for example due to an
exceptional hold-up on a motorway, he should make a note that an enforcement
officer can inspect at a future time. This relates to Article 12 of 561/2006, finding
a safe place to park, not to the digital tachograph.

The 15-minute tolerance

Enforcement guidance from Brussels suggests that it is possible for the
enforcement authorities of a Member State to apply a discretionary tolerance to
the driving period of 15 minutes. The guidance makes particular reference to
vehicles involved in multi-drop operations and the 4.5-hour ■■■■■■■■■■ driving
period, where the driver can demonstrate that he has been involved in such
activity. Further, it should be borne in mind that the EU guidance states that
occasional and not frequent breaches will be permitted and only where evidence
of multi-drop operation is determined.
VOSA already applied a discretionary tolerance to the analysis of all driving and
break / rest periods. It is felt that the current arrangements cater for the tolerance
discussed in the guidance. For this reason, the Brussels guidance note makes
little or no practical change to the enforcement position in the UK.
VOSA notes that a driver of a vehicle fitted with digital recording equipment has
the capability to check their current accumulated driving time; in reality there is
little or no excuse for them breaching the legislative limits. There was a problem
with the displays on early Stoneridge tachographs, which could show a variance
with the recorded driving time; that problem has been rectified on models from
late 2007.

Minimising recorded driving time

It is possible for drivers to minimise their driving time, especially when involved in
queuing. The main action is not to continually creep forward in slow moving
traffic. If they remain stationary and then cover the distance between their vehicle
and the one in front, the ‘driving’ record will be interrupted by periods of other
activity, usually ‘work’. Council Regulation 561/2006 defines driving as the ‘period
recorded automatically or semi-automatically by the equipment’. An enforcement
officer would sum only the periods shown as ‘driving’ and discount those periods
recorded as another activity. The RHA strongly recommends to members and
drivers that queuing behaviour on-site be adjusted accordingly.

courtesy RHA

It seems that with analogue, minor movements such as backing under a trailer from just infront of it, are discarded. With digi, if it crosses a calender minute change point it will record 2 minutes.
Manouevring for 1 minute 10 seconds, could clock 3 minutes.

Anybody care to try and work out how many minutes would be used up by following H & S recommended coupling procedure to the letter? i.e. stop infront of trailer, apply park brake, stop engine, take keys out, get out & look at heights, etc. etc.

However, by my understanding, driving the unit from its parking place, accross to the office, then maybe twice round the yard looking for the right trailer and then coupling to it, is not part of the road journey & could therefor legitimately be recorded as out of scope. Though i would think very few drivers, myself included, would bother to do this

we now have official proof, that digital tachographs are not fit for purpose.
if they are not fit for purpose. then they can’t be used to prosecute a driver in a British court.
it’s the reasonable doubt thing.
simples. :slight_smile:

I agree with the “Fit for purpose” argument.

I’m not saying they’re worthless. They have many, possibly more, good points over the analogue.

I’ve told my boss that I won’t “acknowledge” any infringements regarding driving time. Clearly, there’s no issue with duty time.

Driveroneuk, where did you find that article ? If it was online, could you post/PM a link please.

And does anyone know - actually know - anybody that has been prosecuted, sucessfully or not, in regard to driving time, based on evidence from a digi ?

the problem nowadays. is that there are the on the spot fines. this has its benefits. but lets face it, how many drivers would take the easy option and pay the fine, rather than take time off work and go to court?

so, it is very unlikely to see anyone in court for minor infringements. you would only see a court case for thing like tacho fraud.

but i’m not like that. i have even had a pint with an usher from fleetwood magistrates court. :laughing:

dambuster:
I agree with the “Fit for purpose” argument.

I’m not saying they’re worthless. They have many, possibly more, good points over the analogue.

I’ve told my boss that I won’t “acknowledge” any infringements regarding driving time. Clearly, there’s no issue with duty time.

Driveroneuk, where did you find that article ? If it was online, could you post/PM a link please.

And does anyone know - actually know - anybody that has been prosecuted, sucessfully or not, in regard to driving time, based on evidence from a digi ?

http://www.rha.uk.net/ContentFiles/digitach-analogue-VOSA[1].pdf

Cheers Matey.