Long story short, I’ve been dismissed for Gross Misconduct based on falsification of timesheets.
I was working for a large container firm and was originally based out of Manchester (where I live)
I was phoned a few weeks ago asking if I’d transfer to the Leeds depot and that I’d then be given a regular truck, which I agreed to.
After a couple of weeks of not having any pay slips, I got to thinking that I may still be a Manchester driver working out of Leeds, so I started booking my nights in Leeds as nights out.
There is also 15 mins on the end of quite a few shifts that I’ve booked after taking tacho out, this was me getting paperwork etc when I’m not planning on returning directly to the truck - going for tea, shower or ■■■■.
So, I got dragged in last night after my 13hr shift, asked if I wanted representation (no allegations made at this time), asked to sign to say that I didn’t want representation, then a recorded interview about the above cases + accusations of my attitude and lack of flexibility (even though I’ve bent over backwards for this firm since I’ve been there)
I believe that I should’ve been notified in advance that this interview was going to take place and a copy of the accusation so that I had a chance to check my records and see if there was any explanation for the discrepency and so that I’d have a chance to get representation - which would obviously be taken for this case.
Also, I was told on record that I’m not aloud to appeal due to being there less than 12mths.
waynedl:
Long story short, I’ve been dismissed for Gross Misconduct based on falsification of timesheets.
I was working for a large container firm and was originally based out of Manchester (where I live)
I was phoned a few weeks ago asking if I’d transfer to the Leeds depot and that I’d then be given a regular truck, which I agreed to.
After a couple of weeks of not having any pay slips, I got to thinking that I may still be a Manchester driver working out of Leeds, so I started booking my nights in Leeds as nights out.
There is also 15 mins on the end of quite a few shifts that I’ve booked after taking tacho out, this was me getting paperwork etc when I’m not planning on returning directly to the truck - going for tea, shower or [zb].
So, I got dragged in last night after my 13hr shift, asked if I wanted representation (no allegations made at this time), asked to sign to say that I didn’t want representation, then a recorded interview about the above cases + accusations of my attitude and lack of flexibility (even though I’ve bent over backwards for this firm since I’ve been there)
I believe that I should’ve been notified in advance that this interview was going to take place and a copy of the accusation so that I had a chance to check my records and see if there was any explanation for the discrepency and so that I’d have a chance to get representation - which would obviously be taken for this case.
Also, I was told on record that I’m not aloud to appeal due to being there less than 12mths.
waynedl:
Long story short, I’ve been dismissed for Gross Misconduct based on falsification of timesheets.
I was working for a large container firm and was originally based out of Manchester (where I live)
I was phoned a few weeks ago asking if I’d transfer to the Leeds depot and that I’d then be given a regular truck, which I agreed to.
After a couple of weeks of not having any pay slips, I got to thinking that I may still be a Manchester driver working out of Leeds, so I started booking my nights in Leeds as nights out.
There is also 15 mins on the end of quite a few shifts that I’ve booked after taking tacho out, this was me getting paperwork etc when I’m not planning on returning directly to the truck - going for tea, shower or [zb].
So, I got dragged in last night after my 13hr shift, asked if I wanted representation (no allegations made at this time), asked to sign to say that I didn’t want representation, then a recorded interview about the above cases + accusations of my attitude and lack of flexibility (even though I’ve bent over backwards for this firm since I’ve been there)
I believe that I should’ve been notified in advance that this interview was going to take place and a copy of the accusation so that I had a chance to check my records and see if there was any explanation for the discrepency and so that I’d have a chance to get representation - which would obviously be taken for this case.
Also, I was told on record that I’m not aloud to appeal due to being there less than 12mths.
Any help at all would be greatly appreciated
offer to pay money back
I wasn’t paid it. It’s just on my time sheet, they are checked before payments made. So I’ve not had any payments that I’m not entitled to, they’re just saying it’s falsifying time sheets - gross misconduct based on fraud, attempting to defraud the company out of money that I’m not entitled to
The problem here as I see it is drivers thinking to much. Instead of ‘thinking’ you were still a Manchester driver and booking Leeds as nights out why didn’t you just ask some one to clarify the situation. Most of the the pickles drivers get themselves into as I see it end up happening because instead of asking they think/assume/guess. Just ask, it’s very easy.
Please don’t take this as an attack on you, it’s just a general observation.
switchlogic:
The problem here as I see it is drivers thinking to much. Instead of ‘thinking’ you were still a Manchester driver and booking Leeds as nights out why didn’t you just ask some one to clarify the situation. Most of the the pickles drivers get themselves into as I see it end up happening because instead of asking they think/assume/guess. Just ask, it’s very easy.
Please don’t take this as an attack on you, it’s just a general observation.
No, I agree 100%, I made a mistake and should’ve phoned up and asked.
You know what it’s like in this game though, running around like headless chickens, never seeing anyone etc. Like I said, the 1st couple of weeks that I was ’ a Leeds driver ’ I never booked them down, but after 2 or 3 weeks of no wage slips there, and they were still going Manchester, you can see where the confusion came from.
I’m more interested in the procedure side, no notification of the interview, done at the end of a 13hr shift - after I’d booked off, asked to sign to say I didn’t want representation before the allegations were made and then told that I don’t have the right of appeal due to less than 12mths service.
Coincidentally, my truck was taken off fleet at the end of my shift yesterday.
I do see what you mean. I think part of them problem with many companies is lack of clear ways of communicating for issues outside day to day planning. I’m lucky in that I work for a company where the people who own it are very visible on a day to day basis, we have all their numbers on the truck phones and they happily give out their email to staff so it’s very easy to resolve problems.
The ‘procedures’ you speak of regarding written confirmation etc…
These are no longer procedures which companies muct follow to the letter of the law. There were re-issued a few years ago as a set of ACAS guidelines, and whilst a failure to adhere to these guidelinesmay give your case more weight at a tribunal, a failure to operate within the guidelines does not automatically place the company in a position of wrongdoing.
As you have been there less than 12 months the set of circumstances under which you are allowed to take your employer to a tribunal is very limited, and none appear to apply to you in this case. Sorry.
As for the timesheet falisification - at the times you were booking nights-out in leeds, were you sleeping in the truck or going home? If you went home then you are bang to rights, as claiming a night out in that situation is not only defrauding your employer, but HMRC as well!
FH16Globetrotter:
The ‘procedures’ you speak of regarding written confirmation etc…
These are no longer procedures which companies muct follow to the letter of the law. There were re-issued a few years ago as a set of ACAS guidelines, and whilst a failure to adhere to these guidelinesmay give your case more weight at a tribunal, a failure to operate within the guidelines does not automatically place the company in a position of wrongdoing.
As you have been there less than 12 months the set of circumstances under which you are allowed to take your employer to a tribunal is very limited, and none appear to apply to you in this case. Sorry.
As for the timesheet falisification - at the times you were booking nights-out in leeds, were you sleeping in the truck or going home? If you went home then you are bang to rights, as claiming a night out in that situation is not only defrauding your employer, but HMRC as well!
Sleeping in the truck mate due to lack of time off to go home, get fed, showered, bed, up and back to work. Just under 45 mins each way over the M62 at rush hour…
waynedl:
Sleeping in the truck mate due to lack of time off to go home, get fed, showered, bed, up and back to work. Just under 45 mins each way over the M62 at rush hour…
Does your employment contract state where you will be based, and does it have any clauses regarding temporary relocation to another base? Also, do they have a published disciplinary procedure which is referenced in your contract?
If your employer has failed to adhere to the terms of your employment contract, you could still take them to a tribunal. However, you would only be allowed to bring your case to the tribunal on the grounds of ‘Wrongful Dismissal’ (as opposed to unfair dismissal) as you have been employed for less than 12 months, and in that case the only compensation you would be awarded would be any loss in earnings you have suffered relative to the terms of your contract (i.e. if they normally have to give you 4 weeks notice, then you would get 4 weeks pay). The fact that they have classed it is gross-misconduct does muddy the waters slightly though, as in that case they are permitted to terminate your employment without notice.
To be honest though, it seems as if it was a convenient way of getting rid of you without having to pay the notice period, but proving that would be impossible.
FH16Globetrotter:
The ‘procedures’ you speak of regarding written confirmation etc…
These are no longer procedures which companies muct follow to the letter of the law. There were re-issued a few years ago as a set of ACAS guidelines, and whilst a failure to adhere to these guidelinesmay give your case more weight at a tribunal, a failure to operate within the guidelines does not automatically place the company in a position of wrongdoing.
As you have been there less than 12 months the set of circumstances under which you are allowed to take your employer to a tribunal is very limited, and none appear to apply to you in this case. Sorry.
As for the timesheet falisification - at the times you were booking nights-out in leeds, were you sleeping in the truck or going home? If you went home then you are bang to rights, as claiming a night out in that situation is not only defrauding your employer, but HMRC as well!
Sleeping in the truck mate due to lack of time off to go home, get fed, showered, bed, up and back to work. Just under 45 mins each way over the M62 at rush hour…
But if you were based out of Leeds as you state then the wagon is parked at its base and therefore no night out expense is claimable as you agreed to be based there. Quite why you thought that you could suddenly start claiming them simply based on who was issuing the pay slip is beyond me.
Whilst I have a small amount of sympathy for you regarding losing your job, you’ve really only got yourself to blame for this.
I’m sorry to say but I think youre screwed firstly you get 15 mins at the end of shift for paper work etc if you’ve been claiming time for washing eating and ■■■■■■■■ that’s all your time and booking it is wrong secondly claiming night out money in your home base is also wrong. I don’t think there is any need to tell you the accusations before hand.
you have to invited to a dsiplinary hearing even if they have you bang to rights no letter informing you then there banjoed they in affect refused you any sort of representation and no doubt not followed there own company rules so i would as said earlier acas and tribunal you get the et1 from the job centre that will get the ball rolling for you hope this helps
Mr B:
I’m sorry to say but I think youre screwed firstly you get 15 mins at the end of shift for paper work etc if you’ve been claiming time for washing eating and [zb] that’s all your time and booking it is wrong secondly claiming night out money in your home base is also wrong. I don’t think there is any need to tell you the accusations before hand.
I wasn’t claiming for washing / eating and ■■■■.
I just put 15 mins from when I took my tacho out to the finish time. This was because my time sheet stayed in the truck and the notes were in the office.
What I said was I didn’t go straight back to the truck, hence the tacho was taken out before I left the truck. But I went from truck to get notes, then do my other stuff.
Sometimes getting the notes only takes 5 mins, sometimes it takes 45 mins, it’s swings and roundabouts.
I would have thought that in nearly all cases, you would have to be suspended first, pending an enquiry, for which you would then be invited to attend a disciplinary hearing where the company would give you the results of it’s findings.
For to merely haul your ■■■ in, and then fire you, doesn’t seem to be the right approach. I’m sure the companies rules and regulations regarding dismissal would form part of your employment contract, for which you should have a copy. If they have failed to give you an employment contract since you started, then they are technically breaking the law.
It smells of a kangaroo court here and they wanted to get rid of you, for whatever reason, without any notice, however, it would seem on the face of it that you have screwed up by not asking the question when you were re-posted to Leeds, so in my opinion their decision seems a little harsh. You surely have the right to appeal and put your side of the story across to see if they can rescind the dismissal to something less severe.
shuttlespanker:
would this be a company with an ocean going name, one that has also just recently purchased a number of curtainsider trailers?
Given the Leeds and Manchester depot comments, it’s highly likely Rob. RCL and Frightliner don’t generally do night outs afaik.
exactly, but, Elite have depots in Leeds and Manchester
if it was for the company that i eluded to, lets just say, the depot mananger and his brother, the area manager, i wouldn’t ■■■■ on them if they were on fire
they will screw you over, and when it goes ■■■■ up, they will deny all knowledge of it
the area manager (P.H.) won’t even talk to me, because he knows full well what would happen
Looking at some of the sites on t’internet, they may well have broken the law regarding the handling of your case, but you need professional help on this one. I can’t post what I’ve seen as I’m not a lawyer, but there are set rules that they should adhere to, and if what you say is correct, then you may have a case against them for not following them.
Mr B:
I’m sorry to say but I think youre screwed firstly you get 15 mins at the end of shift for paper work etc if you’ve been claiming time for washing eating and [zb] that’s all your time and booking it is wrong secondly claiming night out money in your home base is also wrong. I don’t think there is any need to tell you the accusations before hand.
I wasn’t claiming for washing / eating and [zb].
I just put 15 mins from when I took my tacho out to the finish time. This was because my time sheet stayed in the truck and the notes were in the office.
What I said was I didn’t go straight back to the truck, hence the tacho was taken out before I left the truck. But I went from truck to get notes, then do my other stuff.
Sometimes getting the notes only takes 5 mins, sometimes it takes 45 mins, it’s swings and roundabouts.
Did you make manual entries on the tacho to account for the 15 minutes? It’s a small point but could count against you if you didn’t.
