Sand Fisher:
What seems utterly stupid to me is working a 15 hour day, you take say 14 hours off and it is considered a reduced daily rest. The law is crackers in that regard.
Are you saying that doing a 23 hour shift and then having 11 off should also be made into a legal regular daily rest
Ugh? Where do I say anything about a 23 hour shift? If you start at 0900 finish at 0000 ie 15 hours later but not start till 1400 the next day how on earth is that morally a reduced rest? You’ve had 14 hours off! Because of this stupid 15 in 24 (leaves 9) but you take more than that how is that a reduced rest. To me a reduced rest is when you book off at 1900 and start again at 0400. That’s a reduced rest.
Personally I’d outlaw the 9 hour turnaround unless it is away from base. Totally ridiculous when people have to travel to/from work, get something to eat etc.
GET MIDNIGHT TO MIDNIGHT ! Out of your mind !!!
It’s any 24hour period FFs [emoji35][emoji35]
Sand Fisher:
What seems utterly stupid to me is working a 15 hour day, you take say 14 hours off and it is considered a reduced daily rest. The law is crackers in that regard.
Are you saying that doing a 23 hour shift and then having 11 off should also be made into a legal regular daily rest
Ugh? Where do I say anything about a 23 hour shift? If you start at 0900 finish at 0000 ie 15 hours later but not start till 1400 the next day how on earth is that morally a reduced rest? You’ve had 14 hours off! Because of this stupid 15 in 24 (leaves 9) but you take more than that how is that a reduced rest. To me a reduced rest is when you book off at 1900 and start again at 0400. That’s a reduced rest.
Personally I’d outlaw the 9 hour turnaround unless it is away from base. Totally ridiculous when people have to travel to/from work, get something to eat etc.
It doesn’t matter what it means to you. It matters what is written in the rules.
Sand Fisher:
What seems utterly stupid to me is working a 15 hour day, you take say 14 hours off and it is considered a reduced daily rest. The law is crackers in that regard.
Are you saying that doing a 23 hour shift and then having 11 off should also be made into a legal regular daily rest
Ugh? Where do I say anything about a 23 hour shift? If you start at 0900 finish at 0000 ie 15 hours later but not start till 1400 the next day how on earth is that morally a reduced rest? You’ve had 14 hours off! Because of this stupid 15 in 24 (leaves 9) but you take more than that how is that a reduced rest. To me a reduced rest is when you book off at 1900 and start again at 0400. That’s a reduced rest.
Personally I’d outlaw the 9 hour turnaround unless it is away from base. Totally ridiculous when people have to travel to/from work, get something to eat etc.
GET MIDNIGHT TO MIDNIGHT ! Out of your mind !!!
It’s any 24hour period FFs [emoji35][emoji35]
I never ever considered it, where do I say its midnight to midnight?
Sand Fisher:
What seems utterly stupid to me is working a 15 hour day, you take say 14 hours off and it is considered a reduced daily rest. The law is crackers in that regard.
Are you saying that doing a 23 hour shift and then having 11 off should also be made into a legal regular daily rest
Ugh? Where do I say anything about a 23 hour shift? If you start at 0900 finish at 0000 ie 15 hours later but not start till 1400 the next day how on earth is that morally a reduced rest? You’ve had 14 hours off! Because of this stupid 15 in 24 (leaves 9) but you take more than that how is that a reduced rest. To me a reduced rest is when you book off at 1900 and start again at 0400. That’s a reduced rest.
Personally I’d outlaw the 9 hour turnaround unless it is away from base. Totally ridiculous when people have to travel to/from work, get something to eat etc.
It doesn’t matter what it means to you. It matters what is written in the rules.
That may be the case but it’s rubbish. Didn’t used to be like that. Stupid rule. What matters is how much rest you have had prior to your shift given an effective 15 hour maximum duty. 9 hours after a 15 is pretty tough …and that’s allowed.
tachograph:
On the last day of a working week the daily rest period has to be completed within the 24 hour period just like any other day.
The daily rest period is extended into a weekly rest period, so although the daily rest and weekly rest periods start at the same time it cannot be considered to be a weekly rest period until at-least 24 hours after the end of the working day.
Try having a 4th reduced daily rest period on the last day of the working week and you will get an infringement.
Thanks a logical explanation and it could make sense but not quite what it says in the Vosa guide. Hence the confusion.
P22 states "An actual working week starts at the end of a weekly rest period, and finishes when another weekly rest period is commenced, Not a weekly rest period starts 24 hours after the start of the last duty in the working week. In effect extending a daily rest into a weekly rest period, which is what you are saying. You may be right and if so the guide is totally misleading.
You need to understand that what you’re referring to is a guide not the regulations, the DVSA wrote the guide in order to simplify the regulations so don’t take the wording as law.
Article 8 of the actual regulations ((EC) 561/2006) states:
A driver shall take daily and weekly rest periods.
Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the
previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall
have taken a new daily rest period.
If the portion of the daily rest period which falls within that
24 hour period is at least nine hours but less than 11 hours,
then the daily rest period in question shall be regarded as a
reduced daily rest period.
A daily rest period may be extended to make a regular
weekly rest period or a reduced weekly rest period.
A driver may have at most three reduced daily rest
periods between any two weekly rest periods.
You’ll notice that there’s no mention of a working week in article 8, while the working week is generally considered to start when you start work after a weekly rest period and end when you finish work at the end of the last shift before a weekly rest period, neither the daily or weekly rest period should be considered as part of the working week, as far as this discussion is concerned the working week is completely irrelevant.
What’s relevant is when does the weekly rest period begin, in practical terms the daily rest period and the weekly rest period begin when you finish work at the end of the last shift, however I would say that in real terms the weekly rest period cannot be considered to have begun until the daily rest period is extended into a weekly rest period, and even then cannot be considered to be a weekly rest period until a rest period of at-least 24 hours has been taken.
tachograph:
On the last day of a working week the daily rest period has to be completed within the 24 hour period just like any other day.
The daily rest period is extended into a weekly rest period, so although the daily rest and weekly rest periods start at the same time it cannot be considered to be a weekly rest period until at-least 24 hours after the end of the working day.
Try having a 4th reduced daily rest period on the last day of the working week and you will get an infringement.
Thanks a logical explanation and it could make sense but not quite what it says in the Vosa guide. Hence the confusion.
P22 states "An actual working week starts at the end of a weekly rest period, and finishes when another weekly rest period is commenced, Not a weekly rest period starts 24 hours after the start of the last duty in the working week. In effect extending a daily rest into a weekly rest period, which is what you are saying. You may be right and if so the guide is totally misleading.
You need to understand that what you’re referring to is a guide not the regulations, the DVSA wrote the guide in order to simplify the regulations so don’t take the wording as law.
Article 8 of the actual regulations ((EC) 561/2006) states:
A driver shall take daily and weekly rest periods.
Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the
previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall
have taken a new daily rest period.
If the portion of the daily rest period which falls within that
24 hour period is at least nine hours but less than 11 hours,
then the daily rest period in question shall be regarded as a
reduced daily rest period.
A daily rest period may be extended to make a regular
weekly rest period or a reduced weekly rest period.
A driver may have at most three reduced daily rest
periods between any two weekly rest periods.
You’ll notice that there’s no mention of a working week in article 8, while the working week is generally considered to start when you start work after a weekly rest period and end when you finish work at the end of the last shift before a weekly rest period, neither the daily or weekly rest period should be considered as part of the working week, as far as this discussion is concerned the working week is completely irrelevant.
What’s relevant is when does the weekly rest period begin, in practical terms the daily rest period and the weekly rest period begin when you finish work at the end of the last shift, however I would say that in real terms the weekly rest period cannot be considered to have begun until the daily rest period is extended into a weekly rest period, and even then cannot be considered to be a weekly rest period until a rest period of at-least 24 hours has been taken.
Well thanks for finding them. No 3 is the key. I wonder if this has been tested in court?
Sand Fisher:
Stupid rule. What matters is how much rest you have had prior to your shift given an effective 15 hour maximum duty. 9 hours after a 15 is pretty tough …and that’s allowed.
9 hours rest is the minimum you must have, there’s nothing legally preventing you taking a longer rest period after a 15 but legally it will count as a reduced rest.
Sand Fisher:
working a 15 hour day, you take say 14 hours off and it is considered a reduced daily rest.
What is a daily rest ?
It’s how much rest you’ve had in a day.
How long is a day ?
24 hours from the start of your shift.
If you work 15 hours how many hours rest can you complete in that day ?
Well it’s 9 isn’t it sir.
The law is crackers in that regard.
One thing I find crackers is drivers complaining that they can’t work longer hours than the already ridiculous hours we’re currently allowed to do.
One thing I find crackers is drivers who can’t read. Since when has 14 hours REST equalled WORK.
FWIW I agree about the stupid hours but please READ posts properly first.
Perhaps the concept is a tad difficult for you to understand since you are confusing rest with the stupid EU law. If you left an office job at 1800 and didn’t start work again until 0800 how many hours rest have you had? Well it is 14 isn’t it. And that is the whole point of this idiotic concept. I would argue that a LGV driver having 14 hours rest in the non EU drivers concept of the word ‘rest’ is a lot more refreshed than someone who did an 11 hour duty followed by a 9 hour rest. It isn’t the law that I am disagreeing with about it is the basis behind the law is stupid.
Sand Fisher:
Well thanks for finding them. No 3 is the key. I wonder if this has been tested in court?
Off hand I can’t remember a court case to test this.
If you want to be the first be sure to let us know how you get on
Cheers Tachograph. I am not that rich!
So why is the guidance from Vosa so incorrect? Surely it doesn’t take a genius to use what you have posted as article 3 and explain that a weekly rest is in essence an extended daily rest and comes into effect as a weekly rest 24 hours after the start of the last duty prior to commencing a weekly rest, but that its duration is counted from the end of the shift immediately prior to commencing the weekly rest. That way there is no ambiguity. But as written that is not what the guidelines say. Quite specific that a weekly rest starts at the end of the last duty and runs until you start work again.
I actually posted the question in the first place to ensure I didn’t break the rules.
Sand Fisher:
One thing I find crackers is drivers who can’t read. Since when has 14 hours REST equalled WORK.
FWIW I agree about the stupid hours but please READ posts properly first.
Perhaps the concept is a tad difficult for you to understand since you are confusing rest with the stupid EU law. If you left an office job at 1800 and didn’t start work again until 0800 how many hours rest have you had? Well it is 14 isn’t it. And that is the whole point of this idiotic concept. I would argue that a LGV driver having 14 hours rest in the non EU drivers concept of the word ‘rest’ is a lot more refreshed than someone who did an 11 hour duty followed by a 9 hour rest. It isn’t the law that I am disagreeing with about it is the basis behind the law is stupid.
I can read fine thanks. No need to use all capitals either. I’ve got reading glasses but thanks anyway.
The only person finding anything difficult to understand is you. You don’t seem to be able to grasp the concept of a daily rest. A rest that falls into a 24 hour period. Or why it’s implemented.
It’s to stop unscrupulous bosses forcing drivers to work excessive hours. You have already agreed that our working hours limits are stupid. Well one of those limits is that we can only work for 15 hours on 3 occasions between weekly rests. This is mostly to prevent driver fatigue and even that is probably a bit too much. 15 hour days belong in the toilet IMO.
You could take a whole week off after doing four 15 hour shifts but if you fall asleep during hour 14 on your 4th shift what good would that be to you ?
It’s all academic anyway. The rules are the rules and they won’t be changing any time soon.
Sand Fisher:
One thing I find crackers is drivers who can’t read. Since when has 14 hours REST equalled WORK.
FWIW I agree about the stupid hours but please READ posts properly first.
Perhaps the concept is a tad difficult for you to understand since you are confusing rest with the stupid EU law. If you left an office job at 1800 and didn’t start work again until 0800 how many hours rest have you had? Well it is 14 isn’t it. And that is the whole point of this idiotic concept. I would argue that a LGV driver having 14 hours rest in the non EU drivers concept of the word ‘rest’ is a lot more refreshed than someone who did an 11 hour duty followed by a 9 hour rest. It isn’t the law that I am disagreeing with about it is the basis behind the law is stupid.
I can read fine thanks. No need to use all capitals either. I’ve got reading glasses but thanks anyway.
The only person finding anything difficult to understand is you. You don’t seem to be able to grasp the concept of a daily rest. A rest that falls into a 24 hour period. Or why it’s implemented.
It’s to stop unscrupulous bosses forcing drivers to work excessive hours. You have already agreed that our working hours limits are stupid. Well one of those limits is that we can only work for 15 hours on 3 occasions between weekly rests. This is mostly to prevent driver fatigue and even that is probably a bit too much. 15 hour days belong in the toilet IMO.
You could take a whole week off after doing four 15 hour shifts but if you fall asleep during hour 14 on your 4th shift what good would that be to you ?
It’s all academic anyway. The rules are the rules and they won’t be changing any time soon.
No I get it but you are wrong. Because you have not included the more serious issue of short daily rests!! Not a contrived 9 hours in 24 but in reality a driver was resting for 15 or 16 hours! A nine hour turnaround is a shocker when taken at a base, on the road probably not so much of an issue. If you have a two week rest (away on annual leave) it is immaterial that your last shift was 15 hours long. That is what you don’t understand. That is what I am saying is daft.
I totally agree with you a 15 hour shift is a sod but I find a 9 hour turnaround more of a pig and you can do that if you’ve worked up to 15 hours. The point that is stupid is you can have a 23 hour daily rest following a 15 hour shift but for tacho rule purposes it is deemed only 9 hours. That is stupid. The law is an ■■■ in that regard. Someone who has been off work for darn near a day (24 hours) is other things considered likely to be more refreshed than someone who has been away from their job just 9 hours.
It is nothing to do with unscrupulous employers. It wasn’t like that in the past, it is just EU rubbish.
What you don’t understand is that the total length of the rest is not the issue here. The issue is the length of the shift. You cannot start a daily rest until you have completed your shift yeah and the regs limit how long that shift can be by stipulating that the daily rest must fit into the 24 hour period.
Honestly, if you cannot understand this after it’s been explained so many times in so many ways then I give up.
Terry T:
What you don’t understand is that the total length of the rest is not the issue here. The issue is the length of the shift. You cannot start a daily rest until you have completed your shift yeah and the regs limit how long that shift can be by stipulating that the daily rest must fit into the 24 hour period.
Honestly, if you cannot understand this after it’s been explained so many times in so many ways then I give up.
Hi Terry, we seem to be debating at cross purposes here. I know and understand the regs re-the 24 hour rule. What I was saying was something different.
Since we posted a few curve balls have arisen.
Daily rest (under single manned conditions) has to both start and finish within the 24 hour period within the commencement of the working period. The rule is that in that 24 hour period rest is to be taken to ensure that it must separate the daily working periods.
There is no rule which requires the next 24 hour period to start when the previous one ends. Thus when a driver has had a longer period of rest than that required by the regulations, the next 24 hour cycle period will start when the operator decides, and the driver commences a new daily work period.
And in response to the OP this from the DVSA which takes us back to square one. Indeed it suggests most on here have got it wrong if DVSA are correct. TBH I don’t know what to believe!
Your enquiry has been passed to me for a response as I’m a DVSA’s policy and legislation advisor for drivers hours rules. At the end of your last shift before taking weekly rest, it is permitted to extend a daily rest period into a weekly rest period and so there is no requirement to take a daily rest period before then taking a weekly rest period. DVSA will only assess that rest period based on the weekly rest requirements so the daily rest period within it does not take precedence and will not be separately assessed.
I hope that assists.
Regards
Susan Traynor | Policy and Regulations Development Advisor | Policy Directorate
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | Grange Road, Houston Industrial Estate, Livingston, EH54 5DE
Phone: 01506 445200
Remember the issue being debated here is, if you have had 3 reduced daily rests during your working week on the last day only can you work more than 13 hours because you are immediately going into a weekly rather than daily rest period?
On a similar note. I have used 3 x15 hours shifts this week. Started at 05.00 today after 11 off. Have been in Tesco reading for 4 hours on rest. Can I now work until 20.00 tonight ?
Sid the Kid:
On a similar note. I have used 3 x15 hours shifts this week. Started at 05.00 today after 11 off. Have been in Tesco reading for 4 hours on rest. Can I now work until 20.00 tonight ?
Yes.
Technically the time your tachograph was on rest you should have been able to dispose of the time freely but who’s going to know that you probably couldn’t
I had contacted DVSA and at first they said you could do a 15 hour day on the last day of your working week because a working week is between two weekly rest periods. This advice came back in writing.
Then a week later they said no you can’t.
Then following further discussions they have said no you can’t but we don’t think that’s right. We are taking this to Brussels to discuss because it seems illogical when your working week finishes you are still being judged as if it were continuing to a working day thereafter.
Hey ho. At least I have posed one for the pen pushers.
I had contacted DVSA and at first they said you could do a 15 hour day on the last day of your working week because a working week is between two weekly rest periods. This advice came back in writing.
Then a week later they said no you can’t.
Then following further discussions they have said no you can’t but we don’t think that’s right. We are taking this to Brussels to discuss because it seems illogical when your working week finishes you are still being judged as if it were continuing to a working day thereafter.
Hey ho. At least I have posed one for the pen pushers.
I can see the cowboys jumping on this and trying to get 4 15’s out of drivers and finishing the week on a 15…brilliant! If the bureaucrats can’t decide what chance has the average driver? I’m astonished frankly that this has come up.
