All canalside diesel is red, and it all goes into one tank. At purchase you make a written declaration of what proportion you intend to use for propulsion, and what proportion for domestic (heating water, charging batteries). HMRC expect boaters to declare 60/40, most boaters declare 0/100. Full duty is then charged on the propulsion element.
If this system stops and all diesel is charged at the full rate, I imagine canalside road garages will see a significant increase in red diesel sold into 20l drums.
OK. So HMRC were expecting all boaters to play ball and not take the Mickey.
If as you say most were evading tax on the fuel used for propulsion, I don’t really wonder about the loophole being closed.
I can see conversion from one tank to two is expensive to do properly, but surely there is no reason it couldn’t be done on new builds or renovations.
Red from cans? If a lot start that won’t there be a few bankside “dippings”? Customs won’t need to invest millions in a high speed cutter to chase you down. [emoji5]
On road vehicles running red illegally they can be confiscated. Does same apply with other modes of transport? Kind of concentrates the mind, gambling tax evaded against your boat?
The UK Government has never wanted even the 60/40 split system, but it was forced on them by the eu in the first place, there tending to be nowhere near as much leisure use on canals in mainland Europe. HMRC do not enforce even the current system because it would cost far more to administer than it would raise so it’s difficult to see that changing, and as many boats are used infrequently, particularly those in marinas with mains hook-ups, it would take decades for many boats’ fuel tanks to be clear of traces of rebated fuel.
Boats shouldn’t have to use DERV anyway, the clue is in the name.
As you say, in the real world, nothing is likely to happen quickly.
Since this has been sliding along since 1995 (?) and the UK’s derogation expired in 2008, it has already been outrun by glaciers.
And your use of the word DERV smells of red-herrings to me.
Franglais:
And your use of the word DERV smells of red-herrings to me.
Feel free to explain exactly why.Which part of ‘road fuel duty and VAT’ don’t you understand.A bit like the failure to understand the definition of ‘domestic’ when applied to hours regs.
WhiteTruckMan:
We’ve been a net contributor to EU coffers for ages. That means any schemes you see with signs and flags saying was funded by the EU were actually paid for by us. What they’ve been doing is bribing us with our own money.
According to the remainer lying propaganda net doesn’t mean overall.
Franglais:
As you say, in the real world, nothing is likely to happen quickly.
Since this has been sliding along since 1995 (?) and the UK’s derogation expired in 2008, it has already been outrun by glaciers.
And your use of the word DERV smells of red-herrings to me.
In a nutshell, what happened was this.
The eu decided that pleasure boats throughout the eu should be compelled to use DERV, largely because waterways in mainland Europe are mainly used by commercial craft (although commercial craft can still run on red diesel). The UK Government objected to this because UK canals are totally different to European mainland canals, being nearly entirely used by pleasure craft, and more of a tourist attraction, which obviously brings in a lot of income and employment to canalside businesses, pubs, restaurants etc.
As a compromise the UK then brought in the system in which diesel used for heating, lighting etc was not taxed at the road vehicle rate, exactly as happens to folk who live in houses who use heating fuel.
The eu then took the UK to the European Court of Justice (in a case which cost tens of millions of pounds) and won and so the UK is about to have legislation which we didn’t want forced upon us against our will by an administration which either does not understand or does not care about UK waterways or its users.
Boaters on my Winter mooring are already getting IBCs in order to continue using red diesel which will be supplied by road tankers. This will be disastrous for the few fuel boats which still trade and are the very last commercial traffic on UK canals, but we won’t be dictated to by an organisation we voted to get rid of, and we stick two fingers up to the eu in traditional Agincourt fashion.
Harry Monk:
In a nutshell, what happened was this.
The eu decided that pleasure boats throughout the eu should be compelled to use DERV, largely because waterways in mainland Europe are mainly used by commercial craft (although commercial craft can still run on red diesel). The UK Government objected to this because UK canals are totally different to European mainland canals, being nearly entirely used by pleasure craft, and more of a tourist attraction, which obviously brings in a lot of income and employment to canalside businesses, pubs, restaurants etc.
As a compromise the UK then brought in the system in which diesel used for heating, lighting etc was not taxed at the road vehicle rate, exactly as happens to folk who live in houses who use heating fuel.
The eu then took the UK to the European Court of Justice (in a case which cost tens of millions of pounds) and won and so the UK is about to have legislation which we didn’t want forced upon us against our will by an administration which either does not understand or does not care about UK waterways or its users.
Boaters on my Winter mooring are already getting IBCs in order to continue using red diesel which will be supplied by road tankers. This will be disastrous for the few fuel boats which still trade and are the very last commercial traffic on UK canals, but we won’t be dictated to by an organisation we voted to get rid of, and we stick two fingers up to the eu in traditional Agincourt fashion.
The EU hasn’t actually made any case in law there that boats anywhere should have to use road fuel duty paid,as opposed to non road use rebated,fuel.The continentals are just plain stupid and/or easily conned by their establishment dictators ( nothing new there ).
As for the idea that we can ( could ) use non road use/rebated fuel for non boating use that’s even more bleedin stupid although too stupid to actually be a con in that case.
Maybe a little google search on how the EU has funded canal restoration in the UK may have been prudent before you said the EU had shafted boat owners…
■■■■ foreigners sending money over here so we can repair the canals, so we can use narrow boats etc etc
Funny how some blokes give all their wages to their Mrs and then think they are absolutely wonderful when they give them a bit of pocket money back. Haha
3.3 The government intends that boat owners whose primary, or only residence, is their boat should continue to be allowed to purchase and use red diesel. These residential boats will generally be at fixed moorings or will move occasionally just a very short distance along the tow path to another permanent mooring. In order to continue to purchase red diesel residential boat owners should satisfy their RDCO supplier that their craft is permanently moored by providing documentation such as:
Houseboat Licence
Residential Mooring Licence
Council Tax bill in respect of the mooring, or
Invoices, or bills.
This maintains the current practice as outlined in Excise Notice 5542.
3.4 Houseboats with no motor and no fuel tank for propulsion will continue to be able to use red diesel.
3.3 The government intends that boat owners whose primary, or only residence, is their boat should continue to be allowed to purchase and use red diesel. These residential boats will generally be at fixed moorings or will move occasionally just a very short distance along the tow path to another permanent mooring. In order to continue to purchase red diesel residential boat owners should satisfy their RDCO supplier that their craft is permanently moored by providing documentation such as:
Houseboat Licence
Residential Mooring Licence
Council Tax bill in respect of the mooring, or
Invoices, or bills.
This maintains the current practice as outlined in Excise Notice 5542.
3.4 Houseboats with no motor and no fuel tank for propulsion will continue to be able to use red diesel.
Which doesn’t actually explain as to exactly where in law does it state that road fuel duty/VAT should apply to boats which are obviously never driven on the roads ?.Bearing in mind that like many others Harry seems to use his boat to tour around the country as he chooses.
While it’s obvious that the issue is that many boat users have understandably and justifiably been flouting what is clearly an illegal EU directive,dressed up as UK law,by using red diesel for propulsion and which this latest imposition is obviously intended to stop.
Franglais:
And your use of the word DERV smells of red-herrings to me.
Feel free to explain exactly why.Which part of ‘road fuel duty and VAT’ don’t you understand.A bit like the failure to understand the definition of ‘domestic’ when applied to hours regs.
See the little winking smiley?
RED herring…
But all they need to do is re-name DERV as, maybe, TAF? TAxed Fuel. Job done at stroke of a… keyboard.
Edit. Yes even red is already taxed so maybe, TAFF? for TAxes Fuel (Fully)
Franglais:
And your use of the word DERV smells of red-herrings to me.
Feel free to explain exactly why.Which part of ‘road fuel duty and VAT’ don’t you understand.A bit like the failure to understand the definition of ‘domestic’ when applied to hours regs.
See the little winking smiley?
RED herring…
But all they need to do is re-name DERV as, maybe, TAF? TAxed Fuel. Job done at stroke of a… keyboard.
Edit. Yes even red is already taxed so maybe, TAFF? for TAxes Fuel (Fully)
Typical Euro idea on the law.You’re effectively saying that you’ve been thieving money from people on a false premise so let’s just now change the title of the tax which supposedly makes it all legal in retrospect.
The fact is white diesel doesn’t denote ‘taxed fuel’ it denotes fuel subject to ROAD fuel duty and VAT and that’s what people are being charged for and you know it.While if you want to change the law in that regard then it needs to be done by parliament according to government manifesto so we all get to vote on it.Bearing in mind that you’ve previously said that the EU isn’t a Federal state and that the Brit government makes the rules which apply here.In which case,until/unless the taxation regime and fuel taxation titling is changed by elected government it’s DERV or its red and boats therefore by definition use red.
On that note commercial boats can use red but private boats have to use white but it’s ok to hit both commercial and private road transport with the same discriminatory fuel taxation.The EU tossers couldn’t make it up.
Having said that as I said going electric and legally using red diesel to charge the batteries with a stand alone generator and LPG fuelled spark ignition engines for larger faster boats is the best solution to put two fingers up to your Euro bs.
There are some strange rulings regarding red and white diesel; tractors attending vintage events/road runs etc must use white fuel, yet on the farm they can use red, as vintage rallies are now classified as public places. That used to catch a few owners out, having their tanks dipped when entering the show, but most are well aware of the ruling now.
windrush:
There are some strange rulings regarding red and white diesel; tractors attending vintage events/road runs etc must use white fuel, yet on the farm they can use red, as vintage rallies are now classified as public places. That used to catch a few owners out, having their tanks dipped when entering the show, but most are well aware of the ruling now.
This has not gone through yet though,and boaters are being asked to comment on it.I have told them that once red is removed our extremely large twin tanks will be targetted by ■■■■■ and thieves…I just bought myself a boat and being honest it costs hardly anything per mile i think it uses a litre an hour.I pay on a 60/40 split.
It is great fun.
The Government pays for services like the NHS, Police and defence from tax revenues. Leisure canal boating is an optional, recreational activity. Diesel engines are bad for the environment. Convergence with European environmental and fiscal policies makes life easier and benefits us all.
Optimum:
The Government pays for services like the NHS, Police and defence from tax revenues. Leisure canal boating is an optional, recreational activity. Diesel engines are bad for the environment. Convergence with European environmental and fiscal policies makes life easier and benefits us all.
All true.
But it’s not just EU pollution regs is it? We are signatories to the Paris Accord, and taxation is one of the levers national governments have to influence use of fuels. Pleasure boating may not be the biggest polluter, but where does one draw the line about what isn’t worth while pursuing?
And if Beetlejuice burns one litre per hour the extra taxes won’t break the bank.
) use non road use/rebated fuel for non boating use that’s even more bleedin stupid although too stupid to actually be a con in that case.
