in cab cameras

[david_h]

albion:
Hello David

I run a small haulage company. We don’t have inward facing cameras and no intention of having them either. From casual in the tearoom type chats, it’s the older drivers that don’t like inward more than they young ones, though I’d say it’s a matter of degrees, the young ones don’t want them either, just they are less vehement about it.

As for driver shortage, the numbers say there is in terms of new drivers replacing those retiring/giving up, and there is anecdotal evidence that some employers struggle to recruit. However, as long as there is a pool of drivers from Poland etc willing to come and drive, then I don’t see that there is a proper shortage. If there were, then you wouldn’t see wages at £9.00 an hour for a Class 1 driver in Manchester, newbies wouldn’t be on the newbie board moaning they can’t get a job. Of course that might change with Brexit, but then again it might not, who knows!

Hello Albion - I read you, but that poll is among young people already employed in the industry, not the millions of young people who point blank refuse to join the industry. I’ve had this discussion before.

I hope you accept this skit in the harmless manor by which its sent. Allow me to recall how the conversation went lol.

Someone says ‘look, that young person is driving with telematics and an inward facing camera’

Answer ‘and how many more young people are doing the same?’

Someone says ‘well not many’

Answer ‘but there are millions of young people that could take up driving. Why don’t they want to do it?’

Someone says ‘a whole host of reasons like nights away, low pay, poor treatment, long hours, overbearing employers, surveillance cameras pointing at them, poor diet on the road, my girlfriend wants me at home, target driven performance through telematics, heavy fines, miserable co-workers, poor management etc.’

Answer ‘so do inward facing cameras and telematics put young recruits off then?’

Someone says ‘yes, they are a contributing factor along with many others.

Answer ‘so young people that are not in the industry are put off by inward facing cameras and telematics?’

Someone ‘yes, big time. The factors that put them off vary by degrees though. However, it’s only the young drivers working in the industry that we actually see who is and who isn’t prepared to work with inward facing cameras and telematics. These drivers only account for a tiny fraction of young people that could, under more favourable conditions, possibly drive for a living.’

Answer ‘so let me get it straight – there are millions of young people that could drive a lorry for a living but only a fraction choose to do so?’

Someone ‘Yes.’

Answer ‘And of that fraction of young drivers, some of them refuse to drive with an inward facing camera?’

Someone ‘Yes.’

Answer ‘so there are millions of young people that refuse to join the industry for all sorts or reasons including inward facing cameras and telematics plus the young drivers in the industry who also currently refuse to drive with inward facing cameras and telematics. How many is that then?’

Someone ‘Millions.’

Answer ‘How many young drivers don’t mind inward facing cameras and telematics?’

Someone ‘not many at all. They’re so small in numbers that they are a tiny minority among young people as a whole. Young people don’t join the industry for a variety of things including inward facing cameras and telematics.’

Wages. This can of worms. Basically, here’s one explanation. The demographic age of the majority of drivers is about 40 years old. If the drivers partner works and the kids have left home then most drivers of this age would like more money but they can justify the stagnation of wages because their own lifestyle and decreasing responsibilities gives then the margins to do so. It’s this huge block of 40 years and above drivers that I say keep the wages low. They say ‘oh yea, its terrible but my house is paid for and my car is too. I have a private pension and my missis is a manager at ASDA and my son lives in France so we have cheap holidays. My Dad died and left me a lot of money blah blah if you get my drift lol.’

Young drivers will probably rent.

[dork_lard]

I get asked quite a lot on how to get into driving & with the younger ones it seems to be the initial cost of training that puts them off. £2k+ is a LOT of money to raise when you’ve only been earning a few years in a minimum wage McJob !

Of all the folk I’ve chatted with about getting into driving I cannot recall 1 who even mentioned the high surveillance factor.

Lets face it, most folk coming into driving will be coming from a background of low pay / long hours type work, the ‘brighter’ ones won’t be looking in this direction no matter what the pay & conditions were.

[albion]

David H:

albion:
Hello David

I run a small haulage company. We don’t have inward facing cameras and no intention of having them either. From casual in the tearoom type chats, it’s the older drivers that don’t like inward more than they young ones, though I’d say it’s a matter of degrees, the young ones don’t want them either, just they are less vehement about it.

As for driver shortage, the numbers say there is in terms of new drivers replacing those retiring/giving up, and there is anecdotal evidence that some employers struggle to recruit. However, as long as there is a pool of drivers from Poland etc willing to come and drive, then I don’t see that there is a proper shortage. If there were, then you wouldn’t see wages at £9.00 an hour for a Class 1 driver in Manchester, newbies wouldn’t be on the newbie board moaning they can’t get a job. Of course that might change with Brexit, but then again it might not, who knows!

Hello Albion - I read you, but that poll is among young people already employed in the industry, not the millions of young people who point blank refuse to join the industry. I’ve had this discussion before.

I hope you accept this skit in the harmless manor by which its sent. Allow me to recall how the conversation went lol.

Someone says ‘look, that young person is driving with telematics and an inward facing camera’

Answer ‘and how many more young people are doing the same?’

Someone says ‘well not many’

Answer ‘but there are millions of young people that could take up driving. Why don’t they want to do it?’

Someone says ‘a whole host of reasons like nights away, low pay, poor treatment, long hours, overbearing employers, surveillance cameras pointing at them, poor diet on the road, my girlfriend wants me at home, target driven performance through telematics, heavy fines, miserable co-workers, poor management etc.’

Answer ‘so do inward facing cameras and telematics put young recruits off then?’

Someone says ‘yes, they are a contributing factor along with many others.

Answer ‘so young people that are not in the industry are put off by inward facing cameras and telematics?’

Someone ‘yes, big time. The factors that put them off vary by degrees though. However, it’s only the young drivers working in the industry that we actually see who is and who isn’t prepared to work with inward facing cameras and telematics. These drivers only account for a tiny fraction of young people that could, under more favourable conditions, possibly drive for a living.’

Answer ‘so let me get it straight – there are millions of young people that could drive a lorry for a living but only a fraction choose to do so?’

Someone ‘Yes.’

Answer ‘And of that fraction of young drivers, some of them refuse to drive with an inward facing camera?’

Someone ‘Yes.’

Answer ‘so there are millions of young people that refuse to join the industry for all sorts or reasons including inward facing cameras and telematics plus the young drivers in the industry who also currently refuse to drive with inward facing cameras and telematics. How many is that then?’

Someone ‘Millions.’

Answer ‘How many young drivers don’t mind inward facing cameras and telematics?’

Someone ‘not many at all. They’re so small in numbers that they are a tiny minority among young people as a whole. Young people don’t join the industry for a variety of things including inward facing cameras and telematics.’

Wages. This can of worms. Basically, here’s one explanation. The demographic age of the majority of drivers is about 40 years old. If the drivers partner works and the kids have left home then most drivers of this age would like more money but they can justify the stagnation of wages because their own lifestyle and decreasing responsibilities gives then the margins to do so. It’s this huge block of 40 years and above drivers that I say keep the wages low. They say ‘oh yea, its terrible but my house is paid for and my car is too. I have a private pension and my missis is a manager at ASDA and my son lives in France so we have cheap holidays. My Dad died and left me a lot of money blah blah if you get my drift lol.’

Young drivers will probably rent.

I can always take a polite skit . My comments were shall we say, a very small sample of who does and doesn’t like inward facing cameras in Albion Trucking, certainly not meant to be extrapolated to all young drivers.

As for wages, that is part of it, it’s multiple reasons. I can add in that at one point there were smaller firms and generally we were more nimble in our approach to making money than the big companies; now everything is tightened down by bean counters and run by metrics ( my bete noir). It’s a running joke between nsmith and I that we have different approaches - he’s King of the spreadsheets, whereas I stick to the old maxim of wages + fuel should come to 50% of your charge. However, nsmith is running more along the lines of the Wincantons of the world - certainly takes the fun out of the game!

Dork Lard, yes the cost is off-putting, but then again most professions( argument ensues as to if this is a profession or not), require some sort of sacrifice before earning money.

I’ve said before, go to uni, get a rubbish degree, leave with 27 k debt and work for under 30k. On the other hand get a C+E for 3k and within two years you’ll be earning under 30 k, possibly a lot more. Obviously a good degree should see you earning significantly more over the years, but some of the degrees that are out there aren’t worth a carrot never mind 27k.

[eagerbeaver]

Dork Lard:
I get asked quite a lot on how to get into driving & with the younger ones it seems to be the initial cost of training that puts them off. £2k+ is a LOT of money to raise when you’ve only been earning a few years in a minimum wage McJob !

Of all the folk I’ve chatted with about getting into driving I cannot recall 1 who even mentioned the high surveillance factor.

Lets face it, most folk coming into driving will be coming from a background of low pay / long hours type work, the ‘brighter’ ones won’t be looking in this direction no matter what the pay & conditions were.

Good post. Also, the vast majority of us on here would not want any of our family and/or friends doing this job for all the previously stated reasons, so that would be another segment of younger drivers not interested.
I’ve mentioned on here in the past that my own father was a wagon driver, but there is no way on earth that I want my kids doing this job.

As for in cab camera’s specifically, my recent experience doing a few Hermes trunks shows these cameras to be a complete farce. Someone cuts in on you and you end up a bit firm on the brake pedal. Following day you are ’ interviewed ’ on the incident and advised how to improve your driving

This job will only (in the main) attract folk who for a variety of reasons cannot currently do any better. You simply only need to borrow some cash (one trainer on here recommends 0% credit card borrowing), and do a fortnights worth of lessons and hey presto!
You now only have to play on your phone and/or go to sleep in a classroom for 35 hrs and you can start getting £25k.

Constant monitoring can only be bad for the driver concerned.

[david_h]

muckles:

David H:
The FTA or RHA or both stated that the industry image of long hours, low pay and poor terms and conditions put young people off. Long hours, low pay and poor terms and conditions are basically the job as older more experienced drivers know it to be. The industry knows that driving for a living isn’t attractive, so do todays drivers and tomorrows potential drivers.

no mention of telematics and surveillance in that,

So who do you suggest should sort it out if not the industry?
Although certain things are out if their control, many of the problems are mostly of their making, maybe the truth is the senior management of the logistics industry isn’t capable of solving the problems or because the goods are getting delivered, shelves aren’t empty and service stations have fuel and shareholders are getting their dividends, then they’re not under pressure to change, as there isn’t a unified pressure from drivers to change things.

Hi again Muckles – I think you’ll be lucky to find any exact and targeted research that specifically and categorically states the precise amount that telematics and inward facing cameras are putting young people off driving. Nobody would expect you to find any such research because the subject is an opinion based on evidence.

In the same vein there is also no specific research on how painful it is to push a needle into your own eyeball. We know enough about needles and enough about eyeballs to deduce or guess or calculate that pushing a needle into your own eyeball would be ■■■■ painful. We don’t need to physically prove it lol. So, what we have regarding a needle and an eyeball is also an opinion based on existing evidence. Millions or young people won’t take up driving, and to varying degrees its due to a number of factors including telematics and inward facing cameras.

As for who cares about the industry? The truck manufacturers have a lot to worry about I guess. As for managers and transport company executives, they don’t get paid enough to bust their head over it. A depot manager will probably live in a semi-detached or small detached on a housing estate. They might have a uni degree. Mid- range car. Wife will have to work. State educated kids. Sainsbury’s/Tesco shopper. They won’t have the power to change much about how they organize their work as this is done from head office. They certainly won’t spend their free time mulling over the state of the transport industry because they know how hard it is to replace a worn out photocopier let alone raise money to build a network of brand new truckstops, each one with its own resident organist.

I agree with you in that as far as the general public are concerned as long as the shelves are full etc then what’s the problem, The reality is that the transport industry will never get to the point where it will, for whatever reason, bring the UK to its knees and allow drivers to dictate how they will work in the future. Keeping the transport industry away from a judgement day like that is a continually evolving process. Unfortunately, the evolving process includes solutions like the DCPC, splitting the LGV test in two, EU workers, working with poor roadside facilities, driver surveillance, reduced international transport opportunities, customers refusing drivers use of the toilet etc all have an impact on potential recruits and existing drivers. I guess its down to the individual to decide when enough is enough and call time on it all.

Most new recruits take the transport industry for what it is at the time they join it. Its only older drivers that feel they have something to reclaim.

[rob_k]

David H:
Most new recruits take the transport industry for what it is at the time they join it. Its only older drivers that feel they have something to reclaim.

Hurray! It’s only taken 3 pages but we get there in the end. The younger generation don’t care about surveillance because they’ve grown up in an era where it’s already been in place - that’s the difference. It’s the older generation that moan about it because such intrusive levels of surveillance and constant monitoring never existed when they started in the industry.

Your ‘pins in eyes’ example just proves that your “evidence” youngsters don’t want to join the industry because of the surveillance and in-cab cameras has no foundation whatsoever and is merely your opinion. Opinion is fine and everyone is entitled to one, but when you start posting it as a fact in commercial publications without any source to back it up, don’t be surprised when people pull you up on it!

[robroy]

Bottom line on this crap to sum it all up is this…

Nothing wrong with outward facing cameras.

Despite what they tell you inward ones are there to catch you and incriminate you, whether you are stupid enough to watch tv when driving or something, or more realisically where it will affect most of us, having a ■■■■ long yawn minutes before you are involved in an rta…your fault or not, because you can sure as hell bet they will pin it on you in that scenario.
Not to mention a downright liberty and disrespect towards your professionalism (if you have any that is.

I don’t give a flying ■■■■ if the streets of the UK are awash with cameras, that does not justify putting a one in my cab.

Imo, the only ones who will disagree with my second point are the apathetic, where the injustice is lost on them, and the downright pathetic who will take what ever is dished out to them without question.

[david_h]

Rob K:

David H:
Most new recruits take the transport industry for what it is at the time they join it. Its only older drivers that feel they have something to reclaim.

The younger generation don’t care about surveillance because they’ve grown up in an era where it’s already been in place -

Its like dealing with my mother. Of course they care. They may have grown up with surveillence but they still choose to stay away from jobs, like driving, where its constant and overbearing. The figures speak for themselves. Take those pins out of your eyes and look how many young people in this country are queuing up to drive trucks. I’m done with this now. Write your own article lol here’s a slate…

Calm down Rob. Put the lump hammer away and chill baby…

[rob_k]

David H:

Rob K:

David H:
Most new recruits take the transport industry for what it is at the time they join it. Its only older drivers that feel they have something to reclaim.

The younger generation don’t care about surveillance because they’ve grown up in an era where it’s already been in place -

Its like dealing with my mother. Of course they care. They may have grown up with surveillence but they still choose to stay away from jobs, like driving, where its constant and overbearing. The figures speak for themselves. Take those pins out of your eyes and look how many young people in this country are queuing up to drive trucks.

What figures? You’ve yet to provide any that can be backed up with actual evidence/proof! The figures “speaking for themselves” are the ones you’ve entirely made up based on your own personal opinion.

There are a whole number of reasons why the industry is not attractive to youngsters and I think most people would agree that the initial outlay and the hours you’re required to do for semi-decent earnings, coupled with not being able to tell your OH and kids when you’ll be home are the key reasons. Concerns over in-cab cameras would be way, way down the list, in my opinion.

[tommymanc]

albion:
If there were, then you wouldn’t see wages at £9.00 an hour for a Class 1 driver in Manchester!

Who the ■■■■ is advertising this?

Using this Take home pay calculator UK, I can work out 9ph as 23.4k a year on a 50 hour week

just looking on indeed, class 1 taking home 28k a year in manchester. Even class 2 being advertised asd 9.5 ph

EDIT, 28k is only 10.77ph I should have checked my maths before typing. its not that big a difference.

[juddian]

tommymanc:

albion:
If there were, then you wouldn’t see wages at £9.00 an hour for a Class 1 driver in Manchester!

Who the [zb] is advertising this?

Using this Take home pay calculator UK, I can work out 9ph as 17.5k a year

just looking on indeed, class 1 taking home 28k a year in manchester. Even class 2 being advertised asd 9.5 ph

Probably like many ■■■■ poor paid jobs, maybe they have done some back of ■■■ packet calcs, including assuming the potential recruits have children so yon taxpayer subsidises/tops up.

[eagerbeaver]

tommymanc:

albion:
If there were, then you wouldn’t see wages at £9.00 an hour for a Class 1 driver in Manchester!

Who the [zb] is advertising this?

Using this Take home pay calculator UK, I can work out 9ph as 23.4k a year on a 50 hour week

just looking on indeed, class 1 taking home 28k a year in manchester. Even class 2 being advertised asd 9.5 ph

EDIT, 28k is only 10.77ph I should have checked my maths before typing. its not that big a difference.

David Bratts is less than £9 ph according to indeed. BTS Carrington £9 per hour. IJ McGill Trafford Park works out at £9 per hour. SESE logistics Carrington £9 per hour. AKW works out at around £9 per hour.

The list is endless Tommy…

[albion]

Done my job for. me EB, I think it was Grasmere Motors that someone put a post up on here a few months back, they were paying 9.00 an hour, 25p less than I pay van drivers.

[eagerbeaver]

albion:
Done my job for. me EB, I think it was Grasmere Motors that someone put a post up on here a few months back, they were paying 9.00 an hour, 25p less than I pay van drivers.

No problem A

Considering the Queen was peering over your back fence last week, it’s the least I could do. (Now you are a big shot Mod… )

[muckles]

David H:
Nobody would expect you to find any such research because the subject is an opinion based on evidence.

What evidence?

Millions or young people won’t take up driving, and to varying degrees its due to a number of factors including telematics and inward facing cameras.

Agreed there are many factors, they’ve been discussed here many times, I’m even willing to believe that telematics and inward cameras might put a few people off, although I would suggest that them and the micro management that goes with it is a bigger factor in retention when the reality of the job bites, than some newbie, all dewy eyed about the industry after watching repeats of Stobart trucks and trailers.

As for who cares about the industry? As for managers and transport company executives, they don’t get paid enough to bust their head over it.

I’m under no illusion as to how powerless and low paid junior and middle managers are, or what they’re paid, having been a junior office Waller in another industry. Or how little those running small and mid-sized companies can do to change the industry, as I’ve also worked on the office side of one of them, I said senior management, however maybe I should have said directors of the large logistics operators.

I agree with you in that as far as the general public are concerned as long as the shelves are full etc then what’s the problem, The reality is that the transport industry will never get to the point where it will, for whatever reason, bring the UK to its knees.

Of course it won’t, if it gets close to that the big players will be off to see the goverment and explain that empty shelves leads to disgruntled voters, so they need to be allowed to bring in cheap labour from somewhere, or some other solution of their choice

Most new recruits take the transport industry for what it is at the time they join it. Its only older drivers that feel they have something to reclaim.

Which basically what everybody else had said, it’s the older drivers who hanker after the freedom of yesteryear, the new drivers know no different and accept it or realise the life they lead before was better and leave the industry.

Me personally I’d only consider going back to regular UK haulage if there was no other option, I do get a case of rose tinted spectacles now and then, but a quick stint of agency work soon sorts that out.

[dork_lard]

You cannot pinpoint a demographic grouping for a UK LGV driver, we’re a VERY broad spectrum & I’d challenge anyone to pick out the LGV driver in a crowd anywhere.

Yet we do seem to share certain traits.

One of the main reasons I’m sat in a cab, & it’s something that I’ve noticed in most of the fellow drivers I get along with, is that we want to be left alone to do our own thing. We want to drive out those gates & be rid of the multiple avenues of corporate BS untill we drive back through them. This is why we hate H&S, DVSA, HA, pointless managers with pointless clipboards looking for someone to justify their pointless existence, teenage planners & hipster agency dudes with pointy shoes . . . et al & all of their petty rules.

Whilst I know of a few drivers who are prepared to tolerate inward facing camera’s, I don’t know anyone who actually embraces them.

Which makes me, as an LGV driver by career choice, extremely suspiscious that some folk on TNUK think they’re such a good thing that they can argue in their favour?

[ezydriver]

eagerbeaver:
David Bratts is less than £9 ph according to indeed.

That is sad. I worked nights for Bratts in 2005 and was paid £100 per shift, and averaged about 10 hours per shift.

[rottweiler22]

I’m in the under-25 demographic, and strongly agree with David H’s posts. If I’m just getting into the industry, and it’s like this now, how bad will it be in 20 years? Why get into an industry that treats you like crap now, and gets worse every day?

These are the reasons why, to me, a young person in the right mind would not take to lorry driving as a career. And also perhaps why drivers of any age are leaving:

• Long hours: at least 50 per week, and over 60 hours per week when tramping. Now more and more firms expect you to work regular weekends too. It’s hard to have a social life when you’re away all week, or up in the early hours. And we all know that a young person lives for the weekend.

• Poor public opinion and esteem of lorry drivers: I don’t care what people say, it doesn’t impress girls at all. And most customers seem to hate you.

• Disengaged and unrealistic management: Firms expect everything to be delivered yesterday, and put too much pressure on people hitting impossible targets, leading to stress. An “every second counts attitude” that pushes you over the edge.

• Poor facilities for trampers: four nights per week in a smelly lay-by, or overcrowded, overpriced truck stop is no way to live. P*****g in a Lenor bottle whilst your mates are at home in their nice warm beds with their girlfriends.

• Overzealous law enforcement: The DVSA waiting in sliproads ready to relieve you of your wages for working minutes over your time. Employers expecting 14:59 shift durations, and the DVSA ready to pounce if you go over.

I haven’t even mentioned the final point yet, and the job already sounds horrendously bad.

• Finally, overzealous micro-management: trackers, cab-phones, and telematics. Harsh braking, acceleration, coasting, and engine idling all measured and analysed to save pennies per shift. The scores put on a league table, with your name in red if you’re not performing. And now cameras. 60 hours per week of all this above, now with a camera pointed at you. Not in your general direction, but at YOU. It’s prime purpose is to observe YOU. Not a cash register, or hotspot, but you, the driver.

I can put up with all the crap above, and I’ll not even moan about wages. I’ll put up with it, providing I can at least just get on with my job. But cameras cross the line. Cameras, to me are the straw that breaks the camel’s back. It’s the final liberty that an employer can take. It’s the employer’s way of telling you how much of a low-life scumbag they think that you, as a driver, are. I’m not giving up my life, youth, health and sanity for someone who thinks that of me. That I need a camera pointed at me to make sure I do my job. You can sod the job. All of the above for a whisker above minimum wage…

I’ll get a normal job, where I’m in my own bed every night. Where I clock on and off at the same time every day. Where I can go to the pub with my friends. Where I can have concrete plans for the weekend. Where my input is valued, and my position respected. If I make a mistake, I go to the managers office. Not prison. The list goes on…

I honestly hope that these managers who installed these cameras are sat at their desk in 5 years time with every truck in their yard stood. Scratching their heads and wondering why on Earth nobody wants to drive their trucks. A true job description would be something like:

“You work 60 hours a week, the public will treat you like crap, and so will the people you deliver to. Four nights per week you sleep in the truck, and you will live a barely human existence. We will constantly call you to check up on you, and complain if you can’t hit one of our impossible slot times. We will plan you for 15 hours per day, but if you go one minute over then you pay the fine. We will track your every move, and your fuel consumption will be put in a league table on the wall, for humiliation purposes. A camera also watches your every move, and you never know when we’re watching, so drive and act to absolute perfection. We may also have a giggle at your expense, but you won’t know if we are or not. £9 per hour.”

Appealing isn’t it?

[commonrail]

I took a job,and didn’t realize my cab had interfacing cameras until my first day on the job.
I immediately disabled it.
Nobody said owt to me…what they gonna do?
■■■■ all.
There’s a driver shortage

[juddian]

Rottweiler22:

• Poor public opinion and esteem of lorry drivers: I don’t care what people say, it doesn’t impress girls at all. And most customers seem to hate you.

Appealing isn’t it?

Indeed, your post does paint a damning picture of the industry, however all is not like that, the secret is to getting away from hire and reward and finding a job where you are delivering your own goods, preferably in a vehicle operated by the manufacturer/supplier, yes these jobs are rare but they are out there and young chaps are sorely wanted because the majority of drivers there will be in the older age bracket (for several reasons) and these companies know they need young blood to bring on.

However this is where it goes wrong, and i have watched this where i am over a few years now, too many of the new drivers simply don’t take enough care, they want to fly about and get done before they start, and on our tanker operation this just doesn’t bloody work because damage is seriously expensive, and too many of all age groups can’t for some reason appreciate when they’ve landed on what should be a dead mans shoes job, so once they have their feet under the table they start to take the ■■■■, start milking the full sick pay, cause damage and ■■■■ off home without sorting it or even reporting it, sometimes snotty with customers (we are not haulage we are part of customer service where i work and last time i looked the customer paid all of our wages , and come up with all the excuses not to cover the second run their were planned.
We’re salaried and our overall hours are very reasonable (well short for haulage), but now again when the crap hits the fan and all industries have peak demand periods, well you have to be prepared to do your share, and this is where the new type of driver (of all ages) lets the game down, the don’t want give and take they only want to take

Customers on specialist type work are not in the same category as often found in general, where surly security clerks and forkies who often have an overinflated opinion of themselves (and it must be said that good ones have to deal with some surly unpleasant lorry licence holders, it isn’t all one way), nine times out of ten i deal with storemen or supervisors who are in charge of the intakes tanks and silos, and the interaction is usually friendly and with a bit of banter now and again.

Funny how soon some drivers they forget what their previous jobs were like, when they’ve gone from 60+ hour weeks to 30/43 hour weeks for often better pay.

There’s a reason good jobs are good jobs is not just because they are unionised (though that helps because a good works union also exerts a certain amount of encouragement/discipline to look after the job, it’s better to be asked by a union steward to curb idiotic behaviour than it gets to company disciplinary procedure, plus good union drivers tend to appreciate the job and are often the most reliable staff), it’s because people who have the jobs look after them, because anyone with an ounce of savvy knows that if enough people take the ■■■■ and ruin the operation, some high ranking director will sooner or later pull the plug and hand the bloody lot over to the DHL Wincanton Hoyer of the world or perish the thought bloody Stobart, and another good job bites the dust and becomes hire and reward hell.

By the way, be very glad that working for a living, therefore working class by definition, does not impress certain of the apparent females out there, you would do well to steer well clear of any female who is attracted to basically the wallet.
Trust me on this issue, western modern females are not a patch on their mothers and grandmothers generations, if you want to find a gem you could do worse than look east or south young man, and i don’t mean Ipswich or Portsmouth, you will never look back, Latin blood is a good bet though i know chaps with Asian and Oriental partners who are happy with their lot and being working class did not deter those fine ladies, i’m not talking about internet take aways here by the way.