in cab cameras

muckles:

David H:

Also where is your research among young people to find out why they’re not interested in truck driving as a job?

If young people don’t want to drive trucks because of the telematics, why do I see so many young East European drivers across Europe, all driving trucks that are being tracked and probably with at least external facing cameras?

Hello Muckles, as far as research on young people not taking up driving goes - take ups for apprenticeships for example are already 40% down after only one year.

motortransport.co.uk/blog/2018/ … ship-levy/

Transport apprenticeships are generally ‘flatpak’ apprenticeships with pre-drilled holes and screws included etc designed to get another bum on a seat. Young apprentices tend to do shift work. They don’t want the layby and full English lifestyle. There job includes driving but they don’t grow to become ‘truckers’ where driving a lorry becomes a full-time commitment. Young drivers that leave the industry don’t leave a great chunk of their lives behind with it. In short, the few young people who make it past 25 make up 2% of the current driving workforce (chart in article below).

aricia.ltd.uk/Temp/ThereIsNo … 120116.pdf

As far as young Eastern European drivers go – their home country doesn’t have the opportunities available to them as today’s young UK national. To a young Eastern European a job driving a lorry is as appealing as it was to a young UK national 25-30 years ago. Saying that even the Eastern European countries are experiencing a driver shortage.

bbj.hu/economy/govt-program-aim … age_149206

Its difficult to pin down the opinion of young UK drivers. Most of them don’t care enough to bother discussing and arguing about what they think about the road transport industry. They clock in, work and clock out again forgetting about lorries until they sit in the next one. Most of the people who regularly post on this forum hold a wider interest in the industry than just driving. It usually is or has been a lifestyle. This isn’t the case for most, but not all young drivers.

The-Snowman:
Its actually frightening how quickly and easily some people just accept things like this without a murmur and actually defend it

^^^ Absobloodylutely!

The-Snowman:
If ever proof is needed that the establishments aim of having mindless sheep following orders while believing they still live in a free country is coming to fruition “if you arent doing anything wrong what does it matter?” and “Theres cctv on every street and in buildings so one in the cab isnt a big deal” is it.
Its actually frightening how quickly and easily some people just accept things like this without a murmur and actually defend it

I love these knobs who bend over and say ‘‘Well if you’re doing nothing wrong…etc etc’’ :unamused: :smiling_imp:

They are all that is wrong about this ■■■■ job now.
The rest of us not only have to endure them, but worse take the consequences of their pathetic ■■■■ attitude.

Unfortunately these days they appear to be in the majority.

I haven’t seen these cameras in use in France (I sit to be corrected) but I think the drivers would have the bosses against the wall if it ever happened .
We are professionals who are expected to know our job,do an economic day’s work, so as to keep our firm’s in business and not be watched over . We expect to go go to a Cafe/ Routier with the boss and to be treated as respected equals . Maybe that’s a problem in the UK . Lack of respect/trust?

Juddian:
None of us give a toss how many cameras are fitted outside, its the one looking at the driver constantly with no let up that’s the issue.

+1

David H:

muckles:

David H:

Also where is your research among young people to find out why they’re not interested in truck driving as a job?

If young people don’t want to drive trucks because of the telematics, why do I see so many young East European drivers across Europe, all driving trucks that are being tracked and probably with at least external facing cameras?

Hello Muckles, as far as research on young people not taking up driving goes - take ups for apprenticeships for example are already 40% down after only one year.

motortransport.co.uk/blog/2018/ … ship-levy/

Transport apprenticeships are generally ‘flatpak’ apprenticeships with pre-drilled holes and screws included etc designed to get another bum on a seat. Young apprentices tend to do shift work. They don’t want the layby and full English lifestyle. There job includes driving but they don’t grow to become ‘truckers’ where driving a lorry becomes a full-time commitment. Young drivers that leave the industry don’t leave a great chunk of their lives behind with it. In short, the few young people who make it past 25 make up 2% of the current driving workforce (chart in article below).

aricia.ltd.uk/Temp/ThereIsNo … 120116.pdf

As far as young Eastern European drivers go – their home country doesn’t have the opportunities available to them as today’s young UK national. To a young Eastern European a job driving a lorry is as appealing as it was to a young UK national 25-30 years ago. Saying that even the Eastern European countries are experiencing a driver shortage.

bbj.hu/economy/govt-program-aim … age_149206

Its difficult to pin down the opinion of young UK drivers. Most of them don’t care enough to bother discussing and arguing about what they think about the road transport industry. They clock in, work and clock out again forgetting about lorries until they sit in the next one. Most of the people who regularly post on this forum hold a wider interest in the industry than just driving. It usually is or has been a lifestyle. This isn’t the case for most, but not all young drivers.

Your links, good though they are, didn’t really answer my question, they just confirm what we all know, that young people aren’t interested as aren’t many other people, in fact you yourself admit it’s difficult to pin down the reason. So to say it’s because of telematics and surveillance is purely an opinion and not based on research conducted by you or anybody else, if the links you posted are anything to go by.

The transport industry has its head stuck up its arse, beleiving that gimmicks and publicity stunts will attract the new drivers, while ignoring the problems of driver retention. If it’s actually worked on solving its driver retention problem, it might find the solution also makes the industry more attractive to new entrants.

Not hard to credit young people with wanting a life and going home at 5 and driving a computer rather than a Scania (I believe other makes are built. ).
Nothing attractive about driving trucks anymore .Just loads of legislation, hassle and long hours.
We have the same problems in France - Older drivers retiring (62 on a very good pension)and very little in the way of young people coming into the industry , Although there are lots of ladies doing it.Driving that is .

Increase pay and rewards, that’s one way of retaining drivers… Oh, and better TM’s!
My TM is alright and our pay is good, we retain a lot of drivers but find it hard to recruit drivers. These 2 years experience jobs are fighting for an ever decreasing pool of drivers

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

muckles:

David H:

muckles:

David H:

Your links, good though they are, didn’t really answer my question, they just confirm what we all know, that young people aren’t interested as aren’t many other people, in fact you yourself admit it’s difficult to pin down the reason. So to say it’s because of telematics and surveillance is purely an opinion and not based on research conducted by you or anybody else, if the links you posted are anything to go by.

The transport industry has its head stuck up its arse, beleiving that gimmicks and publicity stunts will attract the new drivers, while ignoring the problems of driver retention. If it’s actually worked on solving its driver retention problem, it might find the solution also makes the industry more attractive to new entrants.

When I wrote the article for Transport Operator there were two things going on. Firstly, the cost of installing telematics to fleets was cheap enough to convince owners they would save money by installing them. Secondly, the transport industry was and continues to fail to attract a significant number of school leavers and young people under 25.

The FTA or RHA or both stated that the industry image of long hours, low pay and poor terms and conditions put young people off. Long hours, low pay and poor terms and conditions are basically the job as older more experienced drivers know it to be. The industry knows that driving for a living isn’t attractive, so do todays drivers and tomorrows potential drivers.

Telematics is just one, as I’ve stated before, just one reason why young people don’t want to drive. I stand by it because there’s no absolute single reason why young people don’t want to drive, but many reasons and combinations of reasons etc. Todays telematics could develop into an unmanageable data crunching farce that saves nothing or into an overbearing big brother for all we know. Considering the inability of the driving workforce to unify and prevent anything that’s thrown at them let alone telematics, the future looks bleak in this area. Its just as hard to prove telematics actively encourages young drivers. There is enough psychological research which points to any invasion of privacy, in or out of a truck is off putting. Training a camera on someone for hours on end is not just off putting but enough to prevent people from wanting to participate in anything that requires such close surveillance.

As for research, there is no comprehensive research being conducted on the driver shortage or young people not wanting to take up driving roles except small polls or reports based on employment trends etc. None of the universities with a transport department are conducting any research either. Research on this scale would require funding and no-one is putting up any money. The reason why drivers have declined is almost a history project.

The reason why modern day young people don’t want to drive is obvious to anyone who isn’t somehow still attached to a long-lost era when the job was better than it is today. Older drivers have something in the past to compare today with. To joe Average a driving job carries a stigma. Furthermore, to Joe Average it’s unlikely to improve whereas development in most other occupations and vocations has improved. If the transport industry were to conduct some large comprehensive study on young people and driving and publish the results, it would only worsen the industry’s existing case.

Strangely enough though, if it wasn’t for the current driver shortage the transport industry is doing pretty well on the whole. The driver shortage is a real live issue but even under today’s conditions the terms of service that transport and logistics companies provide for their customers with, it isn’t bad enough for their customers to lose money due to a few lost shifts, extra agency drivers, increased damage, turnover or operational screw ups like incorrect trailer being sent etc.

However, this may alter after September 2019 when the next DCPC deadline expires. But its not the number of drivers that drop out of the industry so much as the area where they leave. Transport has moved from the traditional employment areas of the countryside to suburban metropolitan areas. The transport industry competes for jobs with all manner of other industries. The transport industry has no idea of the projected driver shortfall after September 2019 or how the industry intends to make up the shortfall.

There is another challenge to driver loss and retention. There are areas that have fallen out of favour with the transport industry that contain drivers with current valid licences. These drivers don’t find it cost and time effective to travel to new places for shift work. For the sake of a travel allowance etc they may be tempted. This sort of compensation is starting to be offered by some transport companies. In other words, transport companies offering shift work are beginning to exhaust the supply of drivers within cost effective car driving distance of the depot. For a lot of drivers and especially young drivers, tramping is viewed as a moth eaten no go area.

Some transport companies make little or no attempt to retain drivers because currently enough drivers do stay that need no incentive, special treatment or any form of attention. They adopt a throwing glitter at glue policy that says ‘if you don’t like it lump it because we only want drivers that don’t care how they’re treated or why because this saves us valuable time and money.’

Which ever way you look at it the road transport industry is incapable of increasing standards such as wages, driver welfare and industry status across the board. Often the industry doesn’t have any control over the factors that contribute to its poor image. Therefore hoping that the industry will improve things is expecting the industry to shovel smoke. What it would take for young people to U-turn about driving a truck for a living would entail them being left alone to perform a make-over of the current industry, which would no doubt produce something that older drivers wouldn’t want to work in or recognise.

David H:
The driver shortage is a real live issue

Sorry David, but that false statement has just lost you any credibility you may have had with your argument(s). I think you’ve been spending too much time listening to the BS peddled by the RHA and agencies and now you’ve started to believe it yourself. How many more times does it need spelling out for people that there is no driver shortage? If there was one then drivers’ phones would be constantly ringing with the agencies on the other end asking the driver to name his/her price because Tesco needs a load of baked beans there yesterday. Does this actually happen? No it does not, ergo there is no driver shortage as they can manage their logistical issues just fine with the drivers they’ve got on their usual rates. Like I’ve said before : there is only a shortage of mugs that willing to work for buttons. If they put the rates up to £20 an hour from a tenner their “driver shortage” issues would be fixed overnight as all those of us in semi-retirement would dust off our tacho cards and go make some easy money.

Their problems are entirely of their own making. Too busy competiting with each other in the race to the bottom over the blue chip contracts and then once they’ve got them they’re unable to service them because apparently it comes as a big surprise to them that no driver wants to drive for £7.80/hr.

Hello David

I run a small haulage company. We don’t have inward facing cameras and no intention of having them either. From casual in the tearoom type chats, it’s the older drivers that don’t like inward more than they young ones, though I’d say it’s a matter of degrees, the young ones don’t want them either, just they are less vehement about it.

As for driver shortage, the numbers say there is in terms of new drivers replacing those retiring/giving up, and there is anecdotal evidence that some employers struggle to recruit. However, as long as there is a pool of drivers from Poland etc willing to come and drive, then I don’t see that there is a proper shortage. If there were, then you wouldn’t see wages at £9.00 an hour for a Class 1 driver in Manchester, newbies wouldn’t be on the newbie board moaning they can’t get a job. Of course that might change with Brexit, but then again it might not, who knows!

I’m off this week, on my last day at work my planner half jokingly asked if I’d reconsider my holidays as they were 17 drivers short for Monday! That’s 17 loads they couldn’t cover. We do not have cameras, imagine how many more loads they’d struggle to cover if they did.

the maoster:
I’m off this week, on my last day at work my planner half jokingly asked if I’d reconsider my holidays as they were 17 drivers short for Monday! That’s 17 loads they couldn’t cover. We do not have cameras, imagine how many more loads they’d struggle to cover if they did.

But if you told them you could provide them with the 17 drivers they were short but they all wanted paying minimum £15/hr I can guarantee you that they’d suddenly no longer have 17 loads to cover and the drivers wouldn’t be required.

Rob K:

the maoster:
I’m off this week, on my last day at work my planner half jokingly asked if I’d reconsider my holidays as they were 17 drivers short for Monday! That’s 17 loads they couldn’t cover. We do not have cameras, imagine how many more loads they’d struggle to cover if they did.

But if you told them you could provide them with the 17 drivers they were short but they all wanted paying minimum £15/hr I can guarantee you that they’d suddenly no longer have 17 loads to cover and the drivers wouldn’t be required.

Not so sure Rob tbh, the last time that we were screwed for drivers they were paying agency drivers from as far afield as Birmingham and Manchester £20 per hour for all hours worked plus hotel accommodation. To say the company wasn’t impressed is an understatement. It was shortly after this debacle that they decided that direct recruitment was probably a better route than relying on a 90% agency driver workforce.

the maoster:

Rob K:

the maoster:
It was shortly after this debacle that they decided that direct recruitment was probably a better route than relying on a 90% agency driver workforce.

Can I be the first to say, no sh** Sherlock!

the maoster:

Rob K:

the maoster:
I’m off this week, on my last day at work my planner half jokingly asked if I’d reconsider my holidays as they were 17 drivers short for Monday! That’s 17 loads they couldn’t cover. We do not have cameras, imagine how many more loads they’d struggle to cover if they did.

But if you told them you could provide them with the 17 drivers they were short but they all wanted paying minimum £15/hr I can guarantee you that they’d suddenly no longer have 17 loads to cover and the drivers wouldn’t be required.

Not so sure Rob tbh, the last time that we were screwed for drivers they were paying agency drivers from as far afield as Birmingham and Manchester £20 per hour for all hours worked plus hotel accommodation. To say the company wasn’t impressed is an understatement. It was shortly after this debacle that they decided that direct recruitment was probably a better route than relying on a 90% agency driver workforce.

Yeah, a recruitment drive and maybe and extra <50p on the hourly rate is really going to solve their problems! Nothing will change and they’ll still be using 90% agency staff years from now. It’s the same story at nearly every haulage company that runs more than a dozen trucks.

albion:

the maoster:

Rob K:

the maoster:
It was shortly after this debacle that they decided that direct recruitment was probably a better route than relying on a 90% agency driver workforce.

Can I be the first to say, no sh** Sherlock!

You’re a smart cookie Albion, what is blatantly obvious to you, I and most of the TN massiv is totally lost on fast track graduates desperate to conform to and embrace the latest KPI’s.

the maoster:
You’re a smart cookie Albion, what is blatantly obvious to you, I and most of the TN massiv is totally lost on fast track graduates desperate to conform to and embrace the latest KPI’s.

Aaaaah, graduates and KPIs :imp:

David H:
The FTA or RHA or both stated that the industry image of long hours, low pay and poor terms and conditions put young people off. Long hours, low pay and poor terms and conditions are basically the job as older more experienced drivers know it to be. The industry knows that driving for a living isn’t attractive, so do todays drivers and tomorrows potential drivers.

no mention of telematics and surveillance in that, but I’m surprised that the industries main trade bodies actually understand, when they come up with publicity stunt after publicity stunt, to try and tell people what a great job it is. Surely they should be talking to their members and saying look guys, telling people it’s a great job isn’t working, try actually making it at least a job with a reasonable working life balance and a wage for a 40 hours week that somebody could live on instead of expecting them to do max legal hours just to make a living.

Telematics is just one, as I’ve stated before, just one reason why young people don’t want to drive. I stand by it because there’s no absolute single reason why young people don’t want to drive, but many reasons and combinations of reasons etc. Its just as hard to prove telematics actively encourages young drivers. There is enough psychological research which points to any invasion of privacy, in or out of a truck is off putting. Training a camera on someone for hours on end is not just off putting but enough to prevent people from wanting to participate in anything that requires such close surveillance.

Yes there are many reasons, but you’ve still proved no evidence that telematics and survielence are putting new drivers off.

And while there might be research on invasion of privacy, what exactly makes an invasion of privacy is a subjective thing, one persons invasion of privacy is another’s sense of security, the same as what some believe is banter other believe is bullying and some women believe being looked at in the street by a man is actually ■■■■■■ harassment, while many of my female freinds, more mature and thick skinned are flattered is they get a second look in the street.

As for research, there is no comprehensive research being conducted on the driver shortage or young people not wanting to take up driving roles.

Exactly

Which ever way you look at it the road transport industry is incapable of increasing standards such as wages, driver welfare and industry status across the board. Often the industry doesn’t have any control over the factors that contribute to its poor image.

So who do you suggest should sort it out if not the industry?
Although certain things are out if their control, many of the problems are mostly of their making, maybe the truth is the senior management of the logistics industry isn’t capable of solving the problems or because the goods are getting delivered, shelves aren’t empty and service stations have fuel and shareholders are getting their dividends, then they’re not under pressure to change, as there isn’t a unified pressure from drivers to change things.

Rob K:

David H:
The driver shortage is a real live issue

Sorry David, but that false statement has just lost you any credibility you may have had with your argument(s). I think you’ve been spending too much time listening to the BS peddled by the RHA and agencies and now you’ve started to believe it yourself.

That’s pretty unnecessary. I’m not even entertaining it. You’ll be telling me next that you can sell fog.