Drop and run rules

Hello.
I’ve joined as I cannot find even a sniff of info on the web or forums for what I thought was a simple scenario.
Pick a rigid up from Manchester, take it to Bath (3+hours) then return home via train and taxi.

Apart from maybe 30min of liasing when at the final destination it is literally home time with no other work involved…
The train journey home was cheap seats so took from leaving site at 830am until arriving at the depot at 15:00 (grim)
How do I record this journey.?
Obviously not driving!
But not doing work either

Obvious is to go on rest but my timesheet will show paid until I debrief at the depot so do I go POA and if so does that mean everything after leaving bath isn’t counted against my working hours??

My second question is:
For 2 quiet days I drove a small non tacho van on multi drop.
When recording this activity can I generalise i.e. book a block of driving, break and working without detailing each stop start etc because that just isn’t practical then add it to my working time and is it sufficient to record this in a diary without any printouts ?

Thanks in advance
fred

Dripfedfred33:
Hello.
I’ve joined as I cannot find even a sniff of info on the web or forums for what I thought was a simple scenario.
Pick a rigid up from Manchester, take it to Bath (3+hours) then return home via train and taxi.

Apart from maybe 30min of liasing when at the final destination it is literally home time with no other work involved…
The train journey home was cheap seats so took from leaving site at 830am until arriving at the depot at 15:00 (grim)
How do I record this journey.?
Obviously not driving!
But not doing work either

Obvious is to go on rest but my timesheet will show paid until I debrief at the depot so do I go POA and if so does that mean everything after leaving bath isn’t counted against my working hours??

My second question is:
For 2 quiet days I drove a small non tacho van on multi drop.
When recording this activity can I generalise i.e. book a block of driving, break and working without detailing each stop start etc because that just isn’t practical then add it to my working time and is it sufficient to record this in a diary without any printouts ?

Thanks in advance
fred

When travelling as a passenger as part of your working day you should record that as duty.
It cant [u]all[/u] be break as you need to get tickets etc and book off at depot, but lots of it might be. (Sitting playing on phone etc) It cant normally be part of daily rest though.
Driving a light van is not (under EU rules) driving.
You can record those days as work and break only.
.
Records must be on the back of a tacho roll or tacho disc if not entered onto your tacho card.

Link
gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … vers-hours
Drivers are sometimes required to travel to a goods vehicle they are required to drive, or from a vehicle they have driven.

Where a vehicle which is in scope of the EU rules is neither at the driver’s home nor at the employer’s operational centre where the driver is normally based, but is at a separate location, time spent travelling to or from that location to take charge of the vehicle, regardless of the mode of transport, cannot be counted as a rest or break, unless the driver is on a ferry or train and has access to a sleeper cabin (if interrupting a regular weekly rest period), or a sleeper cabin, bunk or couchette (if interrupting a regular daily rest period or a reduced weekly rest period). Even if the driver is not paid or makes the decision themselves to travel to or from home/base the travel time cannot be counted as rest or break.

For example: If a driver had to travel for 1 hour by car, on public transport or as a passenger, to pick up a vehicle from a location that was not their home or normal operating base then this time would count as other work. Similarly, if they had to travel back by car, on public transport or as a passenger, from a location that was not their normal operating base, this would count as other work.

When I used to get trains to meet up with coaches and take them on we’d show all travelling as POA (you’re at work but not doing any work, and the time is known in advance ie via a timetable).

To give an example, we’d book on at 0630, get a train at 0645 (Station was opposite depot) so that would be 15 mins other work, the train took an hour to get to Birmingham so that’s an hour POA, then we’d walk to meeting point etc and that woukd then all be other work. Going home via the train it was other work until you got on a train, then POA, then around 15mins or so other work walking back to depot, booking off etc.

None of that POA counts towards your WTD.

Ref point two I’ll back out of because I don’t know. I know what I would do though but I couldn’t say whether it’s right or wrong

Keep it simple, it’s not driving, it’s not rest. Show it as other work. you’re sure of to know when daily rest needs to be taken.

toonsy:
When I used to get trains to meet up with coaches and take them on we’d show all travelling as POA (you’re at work but not doing any work, and the time is known in advance ie via a timetable).

To give an example, we’d book on at 0630, get a train at 0645 (Station was opposite depot) so that would be 15 mins other work, the train took an hour to get to Birmingham so that’s an hour POA, then we’d walk to meeting point etc and that woukd then all be other work. Going home via the train it was other work until you got on a train, then POA, then around 15mins or so other work walking back to depot, booking off etc.

None of that POA counts towards your WTD.

Ref point two I’ll back out of because I don’t know. I know what I would do though but I couldn’t say whether it’s right or wrong

The link I posted clearly states that it is “other work”.
If you booked it as POA, then you were doing it wrong. Since it is according to the .gov site “other work” then it does count towards WTD.

I dont doubt many would view it as you did. It certainly makes sense to do so, and I would agree that is sensible, but the guidance is clear. The rules dont follow “common sense”.

ED tp Add
Section 1.9 Travelling Time

Dripfedfred33:
I’ve joined as I cannot find even a sniff of info on the web or forums for what I thought was a simple scenario.
Pick a rigid up from Manchester, take it to Bath (3+hours) then return home via train and taxi.

Apart from maybe 30min of liasing when at the final destination it is literally home time with no other work involved…
The train journey home was cheap seats so took from leaving site at 830am until arriving at the depot at 15:00 (grim)
How do I record this journey.?
Obviously not driving!
But not doing work either

Obvious is to go on rest but my timesheet will show paid until I debrief at the depot so do I go POA and if so does that mean everything after leaving bath isn’t counted against my working hours??

Travelling by train to or from a vehicle that comes in-scope of EU regulations can be recorded as Other Work or POA, there are no other options unless you have access to a bunk/couchette on the train which obviously you don’t

Dripfedfred33:
My second question is:
For 2 quiet days I drove a small non tacho van on multi drop.
When recording this activity can I generalise i.e. book a block of driving, break and working without detailing each stop start etc because that just isn’t practical then add it to my working time and is it sufficient to record this in a diary without any printouts ?

This work should be recorded either on drivers log sheets or manually written on printouts or charts.
For EU regulations driving a small van is counted as other work, so you can just record all your driving time together with any other work you do, you don’t need to record each segment of driving separately.
If this work is for the same employer that you drive in-scope of EU regulations for you will need to keep a record of your breaks.

For clarity, the EU Guidance note on travelling time says that travelling time can be recorded as other work or POA as long as no work is being done, so assuming that the DVSA are still operating in accordance with the EU guidance notes travelling time can be counted as other work or POA.

tachograph:
For clarity, the EU Guidance note on travelling time says that travelling time can be recorded as other work or POA as long as no work is being done, so assuming that the DVSA are still operating in accordance with the EU guidance notes travelling time can be counted as other work or POA.

From the link above:

“For example: If a driver had to travel for 1 hour by car, on public transport or as a passenger, to pick up a vehicle from a location that was not their home or normal operating base then this time would count as other work. Similarly, if they had to travel back by car, on public transport or as a passenger, from a location that was not their normal operating base, this would count as other work.”

Guidance .gov site to-day.
1.9 Travelling Time

gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … vers-hours

Franglais:

tachograph:
For clarity, the EU Guidance note on travelling time says that travelling time can be recorded as other work or POA as long as no work is being done, so assuming that the DVSA are still operating in accordance with the EU guidance notes travelling time can be counted as other work or POA.

From the link above:

“For example: If a driver had to travel for 1 hour by car, on public transport or as a passenger, to pick up a vehicle from a location that was not their home or normal operating base then this time would count as other work. Similarly, if they had to travel back by car, on public transport or as a passenger, from a location that was not their normal operating base, this would count as other work.”

Guidance .gov site to-day.
1.9 Travelling Time

gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … vers-hours

The guidance in franglais link is what I use, other work when travelling by van to or from the vehicle I will be using, I do this on most days as due to the nature of my job the vehicle is nearly always elsewhere than in the yard.

Franglais:

tachograph:
For clarity, the EU Guidance note on travelling time says that travelling time can be recorded as other work or POA as long as no work is being done, so assuming that the DVSA are still operating in accordance with the EU guidance notes travelling time can be counted as other work or POA.

From the link above:

“For example: If a driver had to travel for 1 hour by car, on public transport or as a passenger, to pick up a vehicle from a location that was not their home or normal operating base then this time would count as other work. Similarly, if they had to travel back by car, on public transport or as a passenger, from a location that was not their normal operating base, this would count as other work.”

Guidance .gov site to-day.
1.9 Travelling Time

gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … vers-hours

From 1.9

They should record this activity as other work or availability, depending on whether they undertake additional work, such as navigating, while a passenger.

Yes that refers to "has completed their maximum driving time (9 or 10 hours) "
But that is impossible legally, you can’t drive up to 9 hrs and then immediately stop where you are on a live lane of a motorway for example.
It states it cannot be rest or break. It only mentions other work in an example referring to an hour’s travel. The op was travelling for 7 hrs and I don’t think he was navigating for the train driver.

stu675:

Franglais:

tachograph:
For clarity, the EU Guidance note on travelling time says that travelling time can be recorded as other work or POA as long as no work is being done, so assuming that the DVSA are still operating in accordance with the EU guidance notes travelling time can be counted as other work or POA.

From the link above:

“For example: If a driver had to travel for 1 hour by car, on public transport or as a passenger, to pick up a vehicle from a location that was not their home or normal operating base then this time would count as other work. Similarly, if they had to travel back by car, on public transport or as a passenger, from a location that was not their normal operating base, this would count as other work.”

Guidance .gov site to-day.
1.9 Travelling Time

gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … vers-hours

From 1.9

They should record this activity as other work or availability, depending on whether they undertake additional work, such as navigating, while a passenger.

Yes that refers to "has completed their maximum driving time (9 or 10 hours) "
But that is impossible legally, you can’t drive up to 9 hrs and then immediately stop where you are on a live lane of a motorway for example.
It states it cannot be rest or break. It only mentions other work in an example referring to an hour’s travel. The op was travelling for 7 hrs and I don’t think he was navigating for the train driver.

So the site says on the given example of a train passenger it should be recorded as duty.
It also says that when a passenger in a vehicle as duty or possibly POA.

Franglais:

stu675:

Franglais:

tachograph:
For clarity, the EU Guidance note on travelling time says that travelling time can be recorded as other work or POA as long as no work is being done, so assuming that the DVSA are still operating in accordance with the EU guidance notes travelling time can be counted as other work or POA.

From the link above:

“For example: If a driver had to travel for 1 hour by car, on public transport or as a passenger, to pick up a vehicle from a location that was not their home or normal operating base then this time would count as other work. Similarly, if they had to travel back by car, on public transport or as a passenger, from a location that was not their normal operating base, this would count as other work.”

Guidance .gov site to-day.
1.9 Travelling Time

gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … vers-hours

From 1.9

They should record this activity as other work or availability, depending on whether they undertake additional work, such as navigating, while a passenger.

Yes that refers to "has completed their maximum driving time (9 or 10 hours) "
But that is impossible legally, you can’t drive up to 9 hrs and then immediately stop where you are on a live lane of a motorway for example.
It states it cannot be rest or break. It only mentions other work in an example referring to an hour’s travel. The op was travelling for 7 hrs and I don’t think he was navigating for the train driver.

So the site says on the given example of a train passenger it should be recorded as duty.
It also says that when a passenger in a vehicle as duty or possibly POA.

I think the important thing is it states
“cannot be counted as a rest or break”
IF it Must be recorded as other work, then it would clearly state that.
It does not state other work anywhere, other than in examples.

Franglais:

tachograph:
For clarity, the EU Guidance note on travelling time says that travelling time can be recorded as other work or POA as long as no work is being done, so assuming that the DVSA are still operating in accordance with the EU guidance notes travelling time can be counted as other work or POA.

From the link above:

“For example: If a driver had to travel for 1 hour by car, on public transport or as a passenger, to pick up a vehicle from a location that was not their home or normal operating base then this time would count as other work. Similarly, if they had to travel back by car, on public transport or as a passenger, from a location that was not their normal operating base, this would count as other work.”

Guidance .gov site to-day.
1.9 Travelling Time

gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … vers-hours

transport.ec.europa.eu/system/f … e_2_en.pdf

tachograph:

Franglais:

tachograph:
For clarity, the EU Guidance note on travelling time says that travelling time can be recorded as other work or POA as long as no work is being done, so assuming that the DVSA are still operating in accordance with the EU guidance notes travelling time can be counted as other work or POA.

From the link above:

“For example: If a driver had to travel for 1 hour by car, on public transport or as a passenger, to pick up a vehicle from a location that was not their home or normal operating base then this time would count as other work. Similarly, if they had to travel back by car, on public transport or as a passenger, from a location that was not their normal operating base, this would count as other work.”

Guidance .gov site to-day.
1.9 Travelling Time

gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … vers-hours

transport.ec.europa.eu/system/f … e_2_en.pdf

Thanks for the link

tachograph:

Franglais:

tachograph:
For clarity, the EU Guidance note on travelling time says that travelling time can be recorded as other work or POA as long as no work is being done, so assuming that the DVSA are still operating in accordance with the EU guidance notes travelling time can be counted as other work or POA.

From the link above:

“For example: If a driver had to travel for 1 hour by car, on public transport or as a passenger, to pick up a vehicle from a location that was not their home or normal operating base then this time would count as other work. Similarly, if they had to travel back by car, on public transport or as a passenger, from a location that was not their normal operating base, this would count as other work.”

Guidance .gov site to-day.
1.9 Travelling Time

gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … vers-hours

transport.ec.europa.eu/system/f … e_2_en.pdf

‘availability’ or ‘other work’ depending on the Member State’s national legislation…so the UK being our member state franglais link regarding recording as other work is correct?? Interestingly if you click on the link now it says not available, are they reading trucknet

Seems to me that under “common sense rules*” since when double manned you are booked as POA and the first 45 mins count as a driving break, then being on a train should be OK as POA, and being able to wander around, use toilet, maybe get a sandwich and coffee, etc…but…*Common sense rules" are a fiction!

shullbit:
[■■ Interestingly if you click on the link now it says not available, are they reading trucknet

The link in post 2 works, I think the later link might have been too detailed and never worked?

Wow.
And I thought I was the only person confused by this scenario.
Toonsie first comment seems the most logical…where everything up to and departing the train would be other work and the train would be POA.
POA makes sense on a train or coach as I have an absolute and proveable start and finish time for which I’m available but cannot work, or rest (no couchette).
I don’t see how other work applies as if I’m watching TV with my feet up and possibly with a beer as I’m clearly not doing anything work related.

If driving a small van counts as other work does that mean if I drive a hire car back from drop off that is also other work rather than driving?

Thanks for all your input.

I’m going to ask another Q in another post re weekly rests which may also divide opinions.