Looks like Hydrogen will get a smell in after all with HGV’s in mind. “Energy giant BP has announced plans to co-locate a new 500MW green hydrogen facility with its blue hydrogen facility, proposed for Teesside.”
“BP said in a statement that the planned growth in production at the green hydrogen plant will “match production and demand”, as sectors including road transport, marine and heating increase the use of hydrogen in the coming years. The company expects businesses operating heavy goods vehicles (HGVs) to be among the first customers and recently signed a partnership with Daimler Trucks to develop a network of up to 25 UK-based truck refuelling stations this decade.” edie.net/news/8/BP-plans-50 … ant-in-UK/
They’ll need to make the wholesale switch from compression ignition to spark ignition first to make the idea work.
In addition to the cost.It takes more electric energy to split the hydrogen from water than the resulting fuel contains.Starting at 26p per kwh.
Also with the hydrogen option open why the big rush towards EV’s instead of hydrogen fuelled ICE.
Bearing in mind a comittment to the latter wouldn’t have caused the new an nearly new car market crash that’s happening now because of justified market resistance to EV’s and worries about existing ICE vehicle future product support and with it residual values.
Carryfast:
They’ll need to make the wholesale switch from compression ignition to spark ignition first to make the idea work.
In addition to the cost.It takes more electric energy to split the hydrogen from water than the resulting fuel contains.Starting at 26p per kwh.
Also with the hydrogen option open why the big rush towards EV’s instead of hydrogen fuelled ICE.
Bearing in mind a comittment to the latter wouldn’t have caused the new an nearly new car market crash that’s happening now because of justified market resistance to EV’s and worries about existing ICE vehicle future product support and with it residual values.
The Japanese car manufacturers have shown a lot of resistance for the transition to electric cars apart from Nissan & to a degree Toyota but both ran out of steam early on after the Nissan Gen 1 Leaf, Mitsubishi PHEV Outlander & the Toyota hybrid Prius started to lose ground against other BEV manufacturers, Subaru, Mazda have been nowhere to be seen until recently with joint ventures to pool resources. They are really worried at losing ICE manufacture because there’s a perfect storm brewing in Japan! The Japanese population is aged & they have hundreds of thousands employed in the car industry there, If they stopped making ICE vehicles the majority of the workers employed by the car industry would be made redundant as they don’t need that vast number of workers for electric vehicles.
There wouldn’t be enough workers paying into the pension pot to pay for the aged population at present. Some of them have left it way to late to get a lithium battery supply sorted out let alone the chip shortage problem that’s going to last at least another year. I dare say this is going to happen to every country that manufactures ICE vehicles.
lancpudn:
The Japanese car manufacturers have shown a lot of resistance for the transition to electric cars apart from Nissan & to a degree Toyota but both ran out of steam early on after the Nissan Gen 1 Leaf, Mitsubishi PHEV Outlander & the Toyota hybrid Prius started to lose ground against other BEV manufacturers, Subaru, Mazda have been nowhere to be seen until recently with joint ventures to pool resources. They are really worried at losing ICE manufacture because there’s a perfect storm brewing in Japan! The Japanese population is aged & they have hundreds of thousands employed in the car industry there, If they stopped making ICE vehicles the majority of the workers employed by the car industry would be made redundant as they don’t need that vast number of workers for electric vehicles.
There wouldn’t be enough workers paying into the pension pot to pay for the aged population at present. Some of them have left it way to late to get a lithium battery supply sorted out let alone the chip shortage problem that’s going to last at least another year. I dare say this is going to happen to every country that manufactures ICE vehicles.
EV makes no sense v Hydrogen ICE.
It’s just creating dependence on rarer more expensive lithium to add to dependence on nuclear with the lose lose of inferior technology.
It’s more likely to be the issue of nuclear v fossil fuel which is the deal breaker for Japan for deep seated reasons and the Fukushima disaster being the final straw.
With hydrogen fuelled ICE they can obviously at least make the extra nuclear generation issue to produce it, someone else’s problem and remove dependence on Lithium and give themselves a commercial advantage by wrong footing the EV manufacturers who’ve hopefully bet on the wrong horse.
EV’s lost the battle v ICE over 100 years ago and it’s not over yet.
Hydrogen fuelled ICE is the better alternative than Lithium.Bearing in mind that 2030/5 doesn’t actually ban hydrogen fuelled ICE.So Tesla etc and Shell and Octopus v the Japanese car industry hopefully allied with BP.Game on my guess is that BMW and Merc at least will go with the Japs rather than fight Tesla on its own turf.
As for consumer market forces it’s a no brainer with the new/near new car market crash already proving it.
Especially at the high end which needs and sells on the basis of multi cylinder ICE bragging rights for the cash.
While even mid range still has similar issues of customer resistance.The customer who buys a 6 or 8 cylinder ICE isn’t going to be impressed by any EV on offer in that price sector.Don’t under estimate just how much economic damage this is all already causing to the automotive industry.
youtube.com/watch?v=CxwJH7MYdAU
As for commercials the payload v battery weight issue also won’t help the EV side.
Although it’s ironic that either way they’ll replace the lesser, more like if any, green house CO2, with the proper greenhouse water vapour both from power stations and/or hydrogen exhausts.
cleantechnica.com/2021/12/20/sh … of-energy/
Came across this interesting site cleantechnica.com/ with the above article regarding the cost of Hydrogen
lancpudn:
Carryfast:
They’ll need to make the wholesale switch from compression ignition to spark ignition first to make the idea work.
In addition to the cost.It takes more electric energy to split the hydrogen from water than the resulting fuel contains.Starting at 26p per kwh.
Also with the hydrogen option open why the big rush towards EV’s instead of hydrogen fuelled ICE.
Bearing in mind a comittment to the latter wouldn’t have caused the new an nearly new car market crash that’s happening now because of justified market resistance to EV’s and worries about existing ICE vehicle future product support and with it residual values.
The Japanese car manufacturers have shown a lot of resistance for the transition to electric cars apart from Nissan & to a degree Toyota but both ran out of steam early on after the Nissan Gen 1 Leaf, Mitsubishi PHEV Outlander & the Toyota hybrid Prius started to lose ground against other BEV manufacturers, Subaru, Mazda have been nowhere to be seen until recently with joint ventures to pool resources. They are really worried at losing ICE manufacture because there’s a perfect storm brewing in Japan! The Japanese population is aged & they have hundreds of thousands employed in the car industry there, If they stopped making ICE vehicles the majority of the workers employed by the car industry would be made redundant as they don’t need that vast number of workers for electric vehicles.
There wouldn’t be enough workers paying into the pension pot to pay for the aged population at present. Some of them have left it way to late to get a lithium battery supply sorted out let alone the chip shortage problem that’s going to last at least another year. I dare say this is going to happen to every country that manufactures ICE vehicles.
Mercedes have had to remove some of the electronic gizmos on new cars for the forseeable due to the chip shortage.
Tyneside
Carryfast:
lancpudn:
The Japanese car manufacturers have shown a lot of resistance for the transition to electric cars apart from Nissan & to a degree Toyota but both ran out of steam early on after the Nissan Gen 1 Leaf, Mitsubishi PHEV Outlander & the Toyota hybrid Prius started to lose ground against other BEV manufacturers, Subaru, Mazda have been nowhere to be seen until recently with joint ventures to pool resources. They are really worried at losing ICE manufacture because there’s a perfect storm brewing in Japan! The Japanese population is aged & they have hundreds of thousands employed in the car industry there, If they stopped making ICE vehicles the majority of the workers employed by the car industry would be made redundant as they don’t need that vast number of workers for electric vehicles.
There wouldn’t be enough workers paying into the pension pot to pay for the aged population at present. Some of them have left it way to late to get a lithium battery supply sorted out let alone the chip shortage problem that’s going to last at least another year. I dare say this is going to happen to every country that manufactures ICE vehicles.
EV makes no sense v Hydrogen ICE.
It’s just creating dependence on rarer more expensive lithium to add to dependence on nuclear with the lose lose of inferior technology.
It’s more likely to be the issue of nuclear v fossil fuel which is the deal breaker for Japan for deep seated reasons and the Fukushima disaster being the final straw.
With hydrogen fuelled ICE they can obviously at least make the extra nuclear generation issue to produce it, someone else’s problem and remove dependence on Lithium and give themselves a commercial advantage by wrong footing the EV manufacturers who’ve hopefully bet on the wrong horse.
EV’s lost the battle v ICE over 100 years ago and it’s not over yet.
Hydrogen fuelled ICE is the better alternative than Lithium.Bearing in mind that 2030/5 doesn’t actually ban hydrogen fuelled ICE.So Tesla etc and Shell and Octopus v the Japanese car industry hopefully allied with BP.Game on my guess is that BMW and Merc at least will go with the Japs rather than fight Tesla on its own turf.
As for consumer market forces it’s a no brainer with the new/near new car market crash already proving it.
Especially at the high end which needs and sells on the basis of multi cylinder ICE bragging rights for the cash.
While even mid range still has similar issues of customer resistance.The customer who buys a 6 or 8 cylinder ICE isn’t going to be impressed by any EV on offer in that price sector.Don’t under estimate just how much economic damage this is all already causing to the automotive industry.
youtube.com/watch?v=CxwJH7MYdAU
As for commercials the payload v battery weight issue also won’t help the EV side.
Although it’s ironic that either way they’ll replace the lesser, more like if any, green house CO2, with the proper greenhouse water vapour both from power stations and/or hydrogen exhausts.
Toyota has finally caved in after dragging it’s feet to go full electric for years and announced 16 upcoming battery models. Where are they going to get a meaningful battery supply at this stage of the game? insideevs.com/news/555020/toyot … naysayers/
Sodium batteries?
They arent equal to lithium at the moment, maybe never will be its true, but they could be a cheaper, cleaner alternative?
wired.com/story/sodium-batt … ctric-car/
lancpudn:
Toyota has finally caved in after dragging it’s feet to go full electric for years and announced 16 upcoming battery models. Where are they going to get a meaningful battery supply at this stage of the game? insideevs.com/news/555020/toyot … naysayers/
It’s a moot point because no one is going to be able to economically sustain dependence on lithium regardles let alone a 26p per kwh + charging regime + taxes.The demand for Lithium is already outrunning supply and battery costs are already reflecting that.
Toyota are just another manufacturer making a short term panic reaction based on a flawed technology that they know fell at the first hurdle from the dawn of the motor car.
Carryfast:
based on a flawed technology
Is there perfect technology anywhere?
No?
Then ALL technology is flawed.
Im pretty sure youve got a personal favourite bit of tech, but hey-ho, so have we all.
And I won`t argue that black is white to impose my personal view onto others.
cleantechnica.com/2022/01/11/fr … ric-buses/
Specifically, the city calculates it would cost them 95 cents per kilometer for the hydrogen fueled buses versus 15 cents per kilometer for battery-powered buses. In addition, the cost of the fuel cell-powered buses was between €150,000 and €200,000 more than the cost of battery-powered buses.
OwenMoney:
French City Cancels Hydrogen Bus Contract, Opts For Electric Buses - CleanTechnica
Specifically, the city calculates it would cost them 95 cents per kilometer for the hydrogen fueled buses versus 15 cents per kilometer for battery-powered buses. In addition, the cost of the fuel cell-powered buses was between €150,000 and €200,000 more than the cost of battery-powered buses.
It doesn’t have to be fuel cell it can also be Hydrogen fuelled ICE.Which is then just a case of converting diesel engines to spark ignition.While lithium demand is already out running supply with lithium prices increasing to match.While electric costs around 20p per kwh and a bus uses more than 1.5 kwh per km, that’s without any heating on, regardless bearing in mind having to haul the weight of the batteries around.
15c per km they’re avin a larf.Especially with reports that hydrogen will be available at the equivalent cost of diesel by 2023.
Carryfast:
OwenMoney:
French City Cancels Hydrogen Bus Contract, Opts For Electric Buses - CleanTechnica
Specifically, the city calculates it would cost them 95 cents per kilometer for the hydrogen fueled buses versus 15 cents per kilometer for battery-powered buses. In addition, the cost of the fuel cell-powered buses was between €150,000 and €200,000 more than the cost of battery-powered buses.
It doesn’t have to be fuel cell it can also be Hydrogen fuelled ICE.Which is then just a case of converting diesel engines to spark ignition.While lithium demand is already out running supply with lithium prices increasing to match.While electric costs around 20p per kwh and a bus uses more than 1.5 kwh per km, that’s without any heating on, regardless bearing in mind having to haul the weight of the batteries around.
15c per km they’re avin a larf.Especially with reports that hydrogen will be available at the equivalent cost of diesel by 2023.
Well, sort of…
Apart from possibly changing the pistons, valves and seats, head gaskets, oil system, and of course totally changing the fuel system, and remembering that pure hydrogen is very difficult to handle at low temps, and will leech out of “solid” vessels…
…Apart from that…easy !
Franglais:
Carryfast:
It doesn’t have to be fuel cell it can also be Hydrogen fuelled ICE.Which is then just a case of converting diesel engines to spark ignition.While lithium demand is already out running supply with lithium prices increasing to match.While electric costs around 20p per kwh and a bus uses more than 1.5 kwh per km, that’s without any heating on, regardless bearing in mind having to haul the weight of the batteries around.
15c per km they’re avin a larf.Especially with reports that hydrogen will be available at the equivalent cost of diesel by 2023.
Well, sort of…
Apart from possibly changing the pistons, valves and seats, head gaskets, oil system, and of course totally changing the fuel system, and remembering that pure hydrogen is very difficult to handle at low temps, and will leech out of “solid” vessels…
…Apart from that…easy !
Meanwhile back in the real world as opposed to that of the ICE hating luddites ( or lithium and EV sellers ).The truth is there’s no law against Hydrogen fuelled ICE cars after 2030 and no self respecting premium car buyer wants to trade the V8 or V12 ICE for a hoover on wheels for their money.Hopefully BP and any sensible car manufacturer will be able to pull it off.
youtube.com/watch?v=HY5KpBhfCpo
youtube.com/watch?v=CxwJH7MYdAU
Montpellier have decided against 51 new hydrogen cell electric buses and gone for battery ones.
Much cheaper to buy, cheaper infrastructure, greener, and more energy efficient overall.
revolution-energetique.com/ … lectrique/
They said hydrogen was a promising technology, but not at the moment.
Franglais:
Montpellier have decided against 51 new hydrogen cell electric buses and gone for battery ones.
Much cheaper to buy, cheaper infrastructure, greener, and more energy efficient overall.
revolution-energetique.com/ … lectrique/
They said hydrogen was a promising technology, but not at the moment.
There’s nothing ‘efficient’ about having to mine and buy and haul tonnes of lithium in the form of batteries around.
Who says it has to be fuel cell technology.
It’s supposed to be all about zero fossil fuel use so why does ‘energy efficiency’ matter anyway.
Although the claim of more energy efficiency is doubtful anyway bearing in mind transmission around the grid and charging losses.
I’d rather bet the farm on BP’s plan combined with existing ICE technology than EV technology.
The fact is there is no appetite out there for EV’s nor switching over to an all electric domestic energy supply.
Which still leaves the question of reliance on dangerous expensive nuclear energy regardless depending on hydrogen production options.
Common sense says that staying with fossil fuel is the lesser evil than nuclear and biomass and the CO2 issue has been laughably over hyped.