Scania Vabis LV type

[barreiros]

The green cab is most certainly a Hoogeven cab. Also circumstantial, but many strangs of evidence lead to it. Carrosserie Hoegeeven was a subsidiary of Motorkracht, the main importer for Magirus in Holland, but not just Magirus, also International and others. Motorkracht was alo responsible for exporting Magirus to Belgium, not Ulm, Germany. Motorkracht got the parts from Ulm and then build the vehicles from those parts. But they also made their own parts, the Belgium models, for instance, had plastic doors.
Keeping all that in mind, have a look at this Magirus:

Lot is in Belgium, so it probably has been imported by Motorkracht. You couldn’t get a cab like that in Germany anyway, so it’s most likely built in Hoogeven.

Evidence B:

That logo on the door is for GTW (Gelderse Tramwegen), a general public tranport company that ran also a lot of buses. Most GTW vehicles were Magirus and half of their buses had Hoogeven bodies… It would make sense, if they wanted a Scania and it would be available via Motorkracht, they would source it there.

Evidence C:

This is clearly a motor show, and also it is in Germany. It reads something with “in Stunden” on the rear cab, but also the 16,0t Stickers are clearly German. Which means these Dutch Scanias with Magirus parts have been officially imported to Germany by someone. In can only think of Motorkracht.

Another show, the sticker in the window says “Lack” I think, so it might be in Germany again. Next to it sits a Magirus. So the Magirus connection is definately there. It wasn’t just someone buying glass from Magirus, there is a real connection. The obvious Dutch Magirus connection is Motorkracht. Motorkracht was the owner of Carrosserie Hoogeven, and would use their services, if they were to export any Scanias to Germany.

[barreiros]

[zb]
anorak:

ERF-Continental:

…The location is the coachbuilder Medema
in Appingedam …

Are you sure? These vehicles have Medema cabs, according to the websites I found them on:

They look nothing like the LV that Michel uploaded. Is there any evidence that Medema was responsible for that cab type?

The location of that initial photo is not Medema in Appingedam, it is Hoekstra in Winterswijk.

That cab is also by Hoekstra, so that makes sense all around.

And this Scania cab is also not from Medema but Bulthuis.

You can see the Bulthuis Triangel just under the mirror.
But you don’t have to believe me, here’s one on the Bulthuis bridge.

[zb_anorak]

I’m glad the Bulthuis cabs are confirmed as such.

The Magirus connection still contains some questions. The green cab may be more than a mock-up, given that there are bits of wiring loom hanging down. I would guess, nevertheless, that it may be a prototype Hoogeveen cab, given that it has an L75 nose grafted on, while the “production” vehicles had their more elegant grille. I half recall reading somewhere that Hoogeveen-assembled Magirus’ also had fibreglass doors, but that will require some confirmation.

[barreiros]

The green cab is an unfinished restoration project belonging to a collector. The nose may or may not be original. Without context or additional info, the green cab is basically useless for clues.

You also have to understand the low production numbers. If they ever did a mock-up, it ended up on a rolling chassis being sold. Each and every cab was a handbuilt prototype and cost the equivalent of a middle class sedan. I doubt there were more than a dozen of those “Hoogeveen”-Scanias, if not less than that.

[zb_anorak]

barreiros:
The green cab is an unfinished restoration project belonging to a collector. The nose may or may not be original. Without context or additional info, the green cab is basically useless for clues…

It’s clearly a coachbuilt job- you can see the wooden frame. Apart from the nose, its exterior appearance does not differ significantly from the other similar cabs. It appears that they were building cabs- using Magirus panels- on their own jigs. I wonder why they did not simply attach a complete Magirus cab to the Beers frame (with the floorpan cut out)?

[barreiros]

The frame is probably metal, what would fit the timing better, and for wood it looks a little too flimsy.

Metal:

Wood:

[erf-continental]

barreiros:

[zb]
anorak:

ERF-Continental:

…The location is the coachbuilder Medema
in Appingedam …

Apologies for me jumping to conclusion with a ‘restricted/small’ piece of a picture leading to Medema iso Hoekstra.

I very much agree on the very very low level of truth and facts in general as it is human that visitors and posters focus
on what they (think to) know in their particular field of interest and experiences. I more than often highlighthened this
in other threads (ERF EUROPEAN e.g.) with as a result everything was doubted and/or neglected, time will tell however.

Keep up the good work on LV…less has been written and it is indeed a matter of reading, comparing, checking and a very
good sense of judgement, some day all pieces end up into the right place.

[erf-ngc-european]

ERF-Continental:

barreiros:

[zb]
anorak:

ERF-Continental:
http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=126810scanLV75arnhem.jpg

…The location is the coachbuilder Medema
in Appingedam …

Apologies for me jumping to conclusion with a ‘restricted/small’ piece of a picture leading to Medema iso Hoekstra.

I very much agree on the very very low level of truth and facts in general as it is human that visitors and posters focus
on what they (think to) know in their particular field of interest and experiences. I more than often highlighthened this
in other threads (ERF EUROPEAN e.g.) with as a result everything was doubted and/or neglected, time will tell however.

Keep up the good work on LV…less has been written and it is indeed a matter of reading, comparing, checking and a very
good sense of judgement, some day all pieces end up into the right place.

Complete rubbish: all your good stuff was gratefully accepted and all your dubious or unsubstantiated stuff was doubted - same as everyone else! Oh, and you, natuurlijk, did the same for other posters. It doesn’t help, of course when economy with the truth and blatant subterfuge are in the mix . Robert

[zb_anorak]

FZS here we go again.

If you don’t agree with a post, put the alternative view forward, with a clear explanation. If you have information, post it. If you have a question, ask it. If you have an idea/theory or speculation, note it as such. If you just want to moan, ■■■■ off.

[erf-ngc-european]

[zb]
anorak:
FZS here we go again.

If you don’t agree with a post, put the alternative view forward, with a clear explanation. If you have information, post it. If you have a question, ask it. If you have an idea/theory or speculation, note it as such. If you just want to moan, [zb] off.

+1

Robert

[lb76]

These were sitting in Rush Green a good few years back,Ex.Frans Buitelaar Boston

[barreiros]

LB76:
These were sitting in Rush Green a good few years back,Ex.Frans Buitelaar Boston

They’re probably completely disintegrated by now. Both are Van Eck cabs. Here’s one when it still looked a little fresher:

Van Eck cabs are another good example how different their designs could be:

You can clearly see the Van Eck logo on the doors of the first two. The red one puzzled me for a while, but’s it’s also Van Eck, as can be seen here:

[zb_anorak]

barreiros:
…
I’m not really sure what you are saying here or how it relates to anything I wrote before. All the Disselkoen pictures on this page show lorries by the make AS. No Scanias, no Verheuls. Best forget about the name Verheul alltogether in this thread is what I was trying to say. Unless anybody got any shread of evidence, please not mention the name Verheul again, it will help the thread and the fact-finding. Because there are no facts leading to Verheul.

This is on the van Buerden website:

You posted this, amongst other van Buerden cabs on S-V:

There is clearly a link, or a lead to Verheul, there, surely? The cabs differ considerably from the other vB ones you identified. If van Buerden built both cabs, it looks as if they used some parts of the Verheul cab on the S-V too. Were the two firms located close to each other?

[barreiros]

Why is there a link? I don’t understand it! It is a Van Beurden cab on a Verheul chassis. It has a Van Beurden cab because the owner preferred a cab by a nearby coachbuilder instead of a standard cab. The owner didn’t want a Verheul cab. That is the opposite of a link!

Here is a standard Verheul cab:

The front-end probably came with the chassis and the rest is completely different to that Van Beurden cab. So I really don’t see why we are talking about the manufacturer of the chassis in the Scania thread.

[zb_anorak]

barreiros:
Why is there a link? I don’t understand it! It is a Van Beurden cab on a Verheul chassis. It has a Van Beurden cab because the owner preferred a cab by a nearby coachbuilder instead of a standard cab. The owner didn’t want a Verheul cab. That is the opposite of a link!

Here is a standard Verheul cab:0 The front-end probably came with the chassis and the rest is completely different to that Van Beurden cab. So I really don’t see why we are talking about the manufacturer of the chassis in the Scania thread.

Agreed-the cab on the Verheul chassis, assuming it is a van Buerden cab, is different to the “in house” Verheul cab, which is the photo you have just shown.

The link to the LV story is that the LVS tanker has the same (assumed van Buerden) cab as the Verheul curtainsider. My question is, by what mechanism of business did the Verheul parts find their way onto the S-V lorry? I don’t expect a definitive answer to that question- it is just a point of interest, curiosity. Like all of the other questions posed on here, it may yield another piece to the jigsaw. For example, we may discover that van Buerden had links with Verheul which mirrored their involvement with König. There may be an entirely different explanation, which itself is illuminating in some way. We may find nothing at all. There might be nothing at all. The important thing is we present the questions for all heads to be scratched.

[barreiros]

WHAT VERHEUL PARTS?

“Involvement with König”? What were they, lovers?

You oversimplify everything reasonable, but come up with these wild theories based on nuttin. It’s a waste of my time.

I really don’t need the internet to talk to a wall. Good luck with your quest.

[erf-ngc-european]

barreiros:
WHAT VERHEUL PARTS?

“Involvement with König”? What were they, lovers?

You oversimplify everything reasonable, but come up with these wild theories based on nuttin. It’s a waste of my time.

I really don’t need the internet to talk to a wall. Good luck with your quest.

With respect, Barreiros, I cannot remember ‘Anorak’ ever over-simplifying things on this forum. As for his theories; they are not ‘wild’ until you prove them otherwise. And as for your time: that commodity is not at his disposal to waste - it is entirely at your own disposal. You are not talking to a wall. Many of us have open enough minds on here to consider all theories.

Robert

[erf-continental]

barreiros:
WHAT VERHEUL PARTS?

“Involvement with König”? What were they, lovers?

You oversimplify everything reasonable, but come up with these wild theories based on nuttin. It’s a waste of my time.

I really don’t need the internet to talk to a wall. Good luck with your quest.

I fully agree and respect your patience before you came to this decision! History repeats itselfs here.

[zb_anorak]

barreiros:
WHAT VERHEUL PARTS?

On the Jawico LVS:
Windscreens 99%
Wheelarches 60%
Doors or doorframes 75%

Probabilities estimated by me. If you doubt my judgment, please consider that, given the time and a bit of money, I could draw and/or make all of those parts, and deliver a complete new LV to your door. It’s been my job since there were still LVs in service. Even if I am not quite on the ball, you must admit that the similarities between the Verheul and the Jawico LVS’ cabs is worthy of note, given that all other van Buerden cabs on S-V chassis were of a completely different design from the B post forward.

barreiros:
“Involvement with König”? What were they, lovers?

You alerted us to the parts-sharing between the two firms.

barreiros:
You oversimplify everything reasonable, but come up with these wild theories based on nuttin. It’s a waste of my time.

What theories? I draw attention to details where appropriate. The alternative argument is always well received.

barreiros:
I really don’t need the internet to talk to a wall. Good luck with your quest.

Thank you.

[barreiros]

[zb]
anorak:

barreiros:
“Involvement with König”? What were they, lovers?

You alerted us to the parts-sharing between the two firms.

I did not. I pointed out that the design cues were similar and that their shops weren’t far apart. Jumping to the conclusion of parts-sharing is over-simplifying. And so is jumping to the conclusion that two makers must be related because some of their parts are 60% similar.

[zb]
anorak:

barreiros:
WHAT VERHEUL PARTS?

If you doubt my judgment, please consider that, given the time and a bit of money, I could draw and/or make all of those parts, and deliver a complete new LV to your door. It’s been my job since there were still LVs in service.

Kudos if true, but excuse me, aren’t you completely making my point with that statement? If you could do it now, what would stop the builders back then? They didn’t need to know each other. Ergo, similar looking parts don’t mean squat, they could have been produced by anyone, even you.
Also, you should know then, that cutting glass to shape isn’t that complicated, even panoramic glass. Obtaining wide panoramic real glass was the problem, because few manufacturers had the possibility to produce such large pieces. But cutting a two-piece windshield to fit, every minor coachbuilder should have been able to do that.

[zb]
anorak:
Probabilities estimated by me. If you doubt my judgment, …

I do doubt your judgement. And by that I also mean the relevance of what you are judging. I think it has been well established that some if not most builders used a certain amount of “generic” parts, windscreens for example. And in this example I don’t even see that they are the same. Maybe, but probably not. Not that it really matters anyway, because they might be generic.
But also the percentage, with the doors I see no similarities at all, 20% at most.
If I’d go by similarities of 20%, or even 75%, we could have a blast in this thread. I’ve got thousands of theories. And I’m not saying they are irrelevant. I’m saying they shouldn’t be all laid out here and ever-repeated. Because 99% of them will be humbug. I don’t believe flooding this thread with humbug will help anything or anyone. I, for one, am already really annoyed by it.

I’m not going into a ■■■■■■■ match, but it’s actually my job to copy designs. I’m a technical model builder, which means reconstructing external projects in a different scale most of the time. The quality of my work depends on my ability to mimic and reproduce detail, shape and form.
As a hobby, I got into replicating vehicles at small scale. You can find some of my work on my Flickr-page, please judge for yourself. The lorry cabs fit on a large coin. Most of the vehicles shown there I have never seen in real life and have been built having only photos at hand.
My page had already been linked in this thread some years earlier, as I had collected some photos of LV’s up on Flickr. So as you can see, I’m not completely green to this topic. But it’s only in the last two or three years that I had researched Dutch coachbuilding in general. It helped a lot to identify some LV cabs, but it also helped to identify a lot of false info.
With that perspective I am confident to tell you to drop the name Verheul here. They just weren’t in the business of cabmaking as you think. Verheul bought up Kromhout and then made some 96 lorries. Most of those had an inhouse built cab, of course. Other than than, nothing else than buses, wagons, passenger vehicles. If you show me one shred of evidence for a Verheul cab mounted on any other lorry than a Verheul, then we can keep talking. But if not, you’re just pulling things out of thin air. 75% in door similarities my a… that just won’t lead anywhere. It won’t. It just won’t.