Eu referendum whats your vote

fodenway:
Well said Gazzer. There’s a piece in today’s Metro newspaper about Cameron’s decision to offer a referendum as a vote-winner and to get the Lib Dems onside after he failed to get any of his “promised” reforms from the EU. Being so out of touch with the electorate, he was shocked when the vote went the way it did. Depending on your point of view, he then either did the honourable thing by resigning, or, realising he had just thrown a great dollop of smelly brown stuff at the fan, cleared off to take up a few lucrative directorships (and an £800,000 kiss-and-tell deal) and left someone else to clear up his mess.

Coo, never known the words Cameron and honourable to be used in the same paragraph before.

He cleared off with his tail between his legs because he assumed us yokels could be frightened into doing as we were told, his departure no doubt encouraged by the owners of the country, who then arranged for the most compliant of droids to be shoe horned in as PM to sabotage the mess he had unwillingly created…sadly the rest of the Tory party went along with this little wheeze and (if they do succeed in betraying Brexit) when they are reduced to ‘once known as the Tory party’ after the next general election, they have the benefit of time to contemplate how they, all of them combined, are responsible for all that has happened, and for what the replacement of the tory party is likely to be, hopefully a genuine Conservative party.

Juddian, I don’t think the demise of the Tory party would be anything like the end of the world for most of their lords and ministers, there’s always some multinational conglomerate waiting to offer them a non-executive directorship or three, a couple of day’s work a month for a nice fat fee. And I’ve just heard today that BAe Systems are to sell off 55% of their Land Armoured Vehicles division to their German competitor Rheinmetall, effectively giving them control. Can anybody guess how that will work out? Answers on a postcard please to the Ministry of Defence…

Franglais: Your car purchase analogy isn’t quite right.

You’re buying your Rolls Canardly Dismal Blutec W12 6.0l.
Dealer A: Excellent workmanship, so reliable that we will refund you the dosh week by week BUT you are on your own when it comes to Warranty from day one on the 29th of March 2019.
Dealer B: Well it is what it is but if you keep paying R&M (£350,000 per week) we’ll warrant it for 5 years no probs.

No one “lied” about the £350,000 per week saving, it was a “for example” reallocation of the money towards the NHS on the big red bus.

My understanding of Mother Theresa’s deal is we will pay £39billion in dues to the EU PLUS all the monthly contributions until we actually leave. No one seems to bring that last bit up, just the £39bln!

Any poor Brexiteers left on here who can’t afford to leave the UK in the next few months, or is it just SUN & Daily Mail followers left out in the cold?

There was a difference between the claims, propaganda, or whatever one wants to call it, of the two sides in the referendum. The remain arguments put by the government were paid for by you and me … the taxpayer.

Spardo:

Buzzer:
Amber Rudd reckons up to 40 MP’s will resign if they are barred from stopping a no deal Brexit, good thing too I have always said there are far to many of there kind. We ought to have a system where there is only one MP per county, it would be a lot cheaper and perhaps they would agree with each other a lot more, Buzzer.

You’re right, there are too many of them, but your solution would be even less democratic than the present setup.

Unless you are happy with tiny Rutland having the same representation as Yorkshire, for example. :unamused:

By your logic Yorkshire could then use the combined US and Canadian electorates in the undeclared de Jure superstate of Atlantia to trump the vote and mandate of the whole of the UK.That’ll fix it.Let me guess you’ll then go for the Chinese and Indian vote in the undeclared de Jure superstate of Eurasia to trump that.

While the MP for Grantham seemed to have no problem in smashing the Yorkshire mining industry and its workforce among others.

Remind us of the meaning of digressive proportionality within the EU electoral system and the powers of the Commissioners and the President.You know the EU that remainer Thatcher campaigned for.

Franglais:

gazzer:
Spardo: An unfortunate term “propaganda” on my behalf, because here in Spain it means advertising!

The “Facts” were equally available to BOTH sides in any way they chose to promote them, or not if it suited, even IF they were scant or just plainly not well thought through.

At the end of each TV quiz is a disclaimer: " correct at time of recording". That is the plain truth of the referendum, “All info correct at the time of voting”. I use “correct” in the catholic sense as in according to each side. You (Royal you) the voter voted on the info available at the time.
Ask anyone what they remember about the referendum campaign “propaganda” and it will be the big red bus! I bet no one can remember ANY speech by Cameron!

There we are:
The big bus
With the big lie.

You’re IMHO correct that ‘leave’ ran a better campaign than ‘remain’.
Consider buying a new car, both seem to have good and bad points, but one salesman is much better at his job that t’other.
So you buy his company’s car.
The fact he was a better salesman doesn’t mean you’ve bought the best car does it?
Maybe yes, may be no.

If you bought it partly because he promised a 350m quid refund, maybe you might get annoyed when you found out that he was merely a dreamer?

Having grown up around the car trade I know that I ain’t going to buy a motor from a total con artist like Heath who tells me it’s a 6 cylinder Zodiac when it’s clearly a 4 cylinder Consul.

As opposed to the dealer who says why bother with the Consul when I can do the Zodiac for a decent discount which you can then spend on whatever you choose to spend it on.

Obviously including as much of the saving as you wish to spend on clearing however much that happens to be on clearing the mortgage.Now tell me how you’re going to write all that on the side of a bleedin bus. :unamused:

fodenway:
I’ve just heard today that BAe Systems are to sell off 55% of their Land Armoured Vehicles division to their German competitor Rheinmetall, effectively giving them control. Can anybody guess how that will work out? Answers on a postcard please to the Ministry of Defence…

To be fair who really cares if they want to volunteer for the EU Federal army as a sitting duck in a cheap and nasty Euro AFV.When even the now out of production Challenger MBT would be more than enough of a death trap for me leading the charge into Russia under German orders and the illegal insignia of the non state of the EU.

gazzer:
Franglais: Your car purchase analogy isn’t quite right.

You’re buying your Rolls Canardly Dismal Blutec W12 6.0l.
Dealer A: Excellent workmanship, so reliable that we will refund you the dosh week by week BUT you are on your own when it comes to Warranty from day one on the 29th of March 2019.
Dealer B: Well it is what it is but if you keep paying R&M (£350,000 per week) we’ll warrant it for 5 years no probs.

No one “lied” about the £350,000 per week saving, it was a “for example” reallocation of the money towards the NHS on the big red bus.

My understanding of Mother Theresa’s deal is we will pay £39billion in dues to the EU PLUS all the monthly contributions until we actually leave. No one seems to bring that last bit up, just the £39bln!

A car dealer has this Rolls-Can’ardly on his forecourt. In the windscreen is a sticker saying you can have it for £350m weekly payments. You haggle him down to ten shillings a week.

But you later regret your purchase, so take it back. Are you saying you’re now £350m better off? I would say “you’ve taken back control” of ten bob.

We NEVER paid the EU £350m a week.
AFTER the vote Farage (different leave campaign) said it was a mistake, Duncan-Smith (who was photographed with it as a backdrop) dissociated himself. Boris Johnson was publicly rebuked by the ONS for “clear misuse of public statistics”.
I think that qualifies as a “lie”.

Loads of independent analysis debunk that figure.

Edit. OK, 248m a week not ten bob. [emoji5]
Still a lot of money, but not the big red lie mentioned.

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gazzer:
There has been a lot of “We didn’t know what we know now” bandied about.

Forgive me: Both sides had all the propaganda available to publicise and put into the public domain prior to the Referendum of 2016.
To me, the Remain side was less enthusiastic and arrogantly confident that they would be the “winners” in the vote. Hence why they were less prominent on the TV and out in the public’s faces compared to the Brexiteers.

Excuse me: If you don’t do your homework you don’t expect to get the vote…unless you are confidently arrogant.

YOU, the Remainers, LOST. Stop looking for loopholes and sympathy voters to get you over it!

Are you suggesting that all the coverage was unbiased then? Surely no one beieves all the newspapers are unbiased? And many newspapers have a big online presence, look at all the links all over TNUK. Look at a picture of a truck stuck under a bridge and it’ll feed you an opinion piece, disguised as fact, about summat else.
Sky News is also controlled by someone with strong views.

Many seem to knock the BBC for bias on scant evidence, yet willingly swallow the stories of privately owned outlets without criticism.
And that’s even after an editor tells you they are supporting a particular stance!

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I was a few quid short on my weekly EU budget contributions…£350K as opposed to £350mil!

Everyone was presented, on TV, on which ever channel they chose to watch to be influenced. Nobody is stuck with 1 channel to watch. If you don’t like what SKY were promoting you turned over to watch GMB, etc etc. You keep turning over (reading your daily paper) until you find what you do like because it agrees with your ideas.

It works exactly the same prior to a General Election. The nature of democracy where everyone is entitled to a view and have it supported, even Tommy Robinson or even The Monster Raving Loony Party. LOL, if they still existed they could be in with a chance if this Brexit goes ■■■■ up and the C’s are disgraced!

gazzer:
I was a few quid short on my weekly EU budget contributions…£350K as opposed to £350mil!

Everyone was presented, on TV, on which ever channel they chose to watch to be influenced. Nobody is stuck with 1 channel to watch. If you don’t like what SKY were promoting you turned over to watch GMB, etc etc. You keep turning over (reading your daily paper) until you find what you do like because it agrees with your ideas.

It works exactly the same prior to a General Election. The nature of democracy where everyone is entitled to a view and have it supported, even Tommy Robinson or even The Monster Raving Loony Party. LOL, if they still existed they could be in with a chance if this Brexit goes ■■■■ up and the C’s are disgraced!

Nice to see you participating on here Gazzer, there are some fearful opinions on here of late, most of us at the end of the day are probably too old to worry too much about Brexit but one thing for sure is that if it does go ■■■■ up and we don’t leave the Cons are done for and lord knows what will happen if JC gets in, still think they would do far better with some one else leading them but I like it as it is as I don’t want a Labour government, that would be worse than staying in the EU, Buzzer.

Buzzer:
I don’t want a Labour government, that would be worse than staying in the EU, Buzzer.

Ironically it’s that type of blind loyalty to the Con party which is why we are in this mess and it’s also why we won’t be leaving the EU any time soon.IE we’ve already seen that type of logic in action with Heath,Thatcher,Major,Cameron and now May. :unamused:

As for Labour names like Benn/Shore/Heffer and now Hoey trump anything which the Conservative rabble have ever put up against the EU.With at best the laughable wavering of people like Gove and dodgy motivation of BoJo.

Franglais:

gazzer:
Franglais: Your car purchase analogy isn’t quite right.

You’re buying your Rolls Canardly Dismal Blutec W12 6.0l.
Dealer A: Excellent workmanship, so reliable that we will refund you the dosh week by week BUT you are on your own when it comes to Warranty from day one on the 29th of March 2019.
Dealer B: Well it is what it is but if you keep paying R&M (£350,000 per week) we’ll warrant it for 5 years no probs.

No one “lied” about the £350,000 per week saving, it was a “for example” reallocation of the money towards the NHS on the big red bus.

My understanding of Mother Theresa’s deal is we will pay £39billion in dues to the EU PLUS all the monthly contributions until we actually leave. No one seems to bring that last bit up, just the £39bln!

A car dealer has this Rolls-Can’ardly on his forecourt. In the windscreen is a sticker saying you can have it for £350m weekly payments. You haggle him down to ten shillings a week.

But you later regret your purchase, so take it back. Are you saying you’re now £350m better off? I would say “you’ve taken back control” of ten bob.

We NEVER paid the EU £350m a week.

Edit. OK, 248m a week not ten bob. [emoji5]
Still a lot of money, but not the big red lie mentioned.

Only the blind fanaticism of the EU Fedralists could equate even 248 m with the difference between 350 m v ten bob.That’s even if the 248 m figure can be trusted v the 350 m which obviously doesn’t include the net trade deficit.Also bearing in mind that all figures are net what is the relevance of any bs ‘rebate’.

So we were sold a Rolls which turned out to be a Mondeo anyway.Which was bought fraudulently by a Son using stolen bank details in the name of his Father also bearing in mind that the price of the car included handing over the deeds to the Father’s house as part of the payment.So it’s been returned as an illegal contract means no contract.Also bearing in mind that even if it had been a legal sale the conditions of sale stated that the thing could be returned at any time with no binding commitment on the ‘buyer’ to keep it.

gazzer:
I was a few quid short on my weekly EU budget contributions…£350K as opposed to £350mil!

Everyone was presented, on TV, on which ever channel they chose to watch to be influenced. Nobody is stuck with 1 channel to watch. If you don’t like what SKY were promoting you turned over to watch GMB, etc etc. You keep turning over (reading your daily paper) until you find what you do like because it agrees with your ideas.

It works exactly the same prior to a General Election. The nature of democracy where everyone is entitled to a view and have it supported, even Tommy Robinson or even The Monster Raving Loony Party. LOL, if they still existed they could be in with a chance if this Brexit goes ■■■■ up and the C’s are disgraced!

I’ll give you a longer answer to dispute later[emoji5]
But for the momont I’ll agree: Screaming Lord Sutch would be a welcome breath of sanity right now!

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The Brexit plague without a cure!!!.

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gazzer:
I was a few quid short on my weekly EU budget contributions…£350K as opposed to £350mil!

Everyone was presented, on TV, on which ever channel they chose to watch to be influenced. Nobody is stuck with 1 channel to watch. If you don’t like what SKY were promoting you turned over to watch GMB, etc etc. You keep turning over (reading your daily paper) until you find what you do like because it agrees with your ideas.

It works exactly the same prior to a General Election. The nature of democracy where everyone is entitled to a view and have it supported, even Tommy Robinson or even The Monster Raving Loony Party. LOL, if they still existed they could be in with a chance if this Brexit goes ■■■■ up and the C’s are disgraced!

A few decades ago the medical world changes a bit: it used to be the consultant surgeon and his team would visit your bed, and say “sign here, it’s a consent form for your operation”. Now we talk about ‘informed consent’. The good and bad points of a procedure should be explained to us in as neutral a way as possible*.
Surely a better way? Nothing to stop you asking the Dr “what would you do?”, of course if you want to.

“We choose who we are influenced by”?
So do we do that knowingly?
We watch the footie on the box, then the news comes on. Maybe it’s not a neutral news caster. Maybe it’s someone saying “the Brexit talks should be easy” thus repeating from the news desk, as fact, what is only one side of the argument. Doesn’t continual drip feed of stuff like that influence us ? And is that really through choice? I know we’re free to turn off, but we don’t.

“We choose to read what we already agree with”?
The ‘Echo Chamber’ effect then.
We have a tendency to one point of view, so read papers etc that reflect that, our leaning is then normalised and we move further in that direction.
On other media we read an article saying X so we are fed more links to X and ■■, later ■■■. Many are moved either further towards extreme X as others are moved towards extreme Y.
We take part in forums, but can easily block those whose views we disagree with.
(Some jokes in there…)
Maybe you’re correct in what is happening, except maybe you are under estimating the insidious nature of the way we are UNKNOWINGLY influenced, rather than it being a conscience choice?

“We’re entitled to a view, which we should find supported”?
Surely our choices should be based on facts, not reinforcement of our prejudices?
Our votes should be made on accurate information, not on a party agreeing with our opinion that “two plus two makes five”!

Another thought about buying cars.
A salesman convinces you that his Rolls Can’Ardly is a gem. You are Clarkson praising it on a video. You pay a deposit on it.
Before it’s delivered you realise the video was a paid for advert. You read about the mpg figures for the R-C that the salesman omitted.
You realise that maybe your existing Mondeo** is actually a better vehicle to go shopping and commuting with?
And then you look at insurance. An R-C will cost shed loads, although the salesman told you barefaced lies about that.
I reckon you may wanna change your mind about buying the Roller?

*‘neutral’ and ‘unbiased’ are difficult to achieve of course!
**no one is on my ‘ignore’ list.

Edit for many typos

Franglais your car comparison does not add up in my eyes, anyone who buys a Rolls knows what it costs especially the running expenses and to boot if he can buy a Rolls in the first place the money does not come into it as he probably wealth to enable such a purchase, on the other hand the man who buys the ford for example does so as he knows what it can do at a reasonable cost and wont break the bank. At the end of the day you cut your cloth accordingly you buy what is practical for you and that which you can afford, Buzzer

Buzzer:
Franglais your car comparison does not add up in my eyes, anyone who buys a Rolls knows what it costs especially the running expenses and to boot if he can buy a Rolls in the first place the money does not come into it as he probably wealth to enable such a purchase, on the other hand the man who buys the ford for example does so as he knows what it can do at a reasonable cost and wont break the bank. At the end of the day you cut your cloth accordingly you buy what is practical for you and that which you can afford, Buzzer

True Buzzer, but as you said, everyone knows the comparison of a Roller with a Ford, but in this instance, Brexit, nobody did know the full sp when they were asked to vote. So a change of mind is not a betrayal, just that, a change of mind when much more is known about the deal.

My comparison would be with General Elections. You vote for one party partly because of what they promise and then they don’t keep their promises. So, unless you are one of those who votes with blind faith each time, or ‘because my Dad did’, you have the chance to change your mind next time. Nobody disagrees with that.

When I first mentioned this, many many pages ago, CF accused me of wanting a referendum every 5 years. Of course that is nonsense, but it is one of the reasons why I don’t agree with this way of doing things and, true to my belief, don’t want another one this time.

Hi all, but even with the stupid child like bickering it still doesn’t change the fact that the UK voted to leave just because our M P s can’t get there act together is neither here nor there, what is the answer to just keep voting till the remainder’s get the vote that they want,sorry don’t work .Just because the going get’s tough you don’t just give up. :smiley: