This is squarely aimed at all you ■■■■■■■ Remoaners ! We had a referendum in 2016 which asked the simple , straight forward, question " Do you want to leave the EU or do you want to remain in the EU". 17:4 million UK voters chose LEAVE !! We weren’t presented with a ■■■■■■■ toilet roll length of what if this or that outcome !! In 1975 we weren’t given any options either just a straight “in or out” ( I voted to stay out !) so why all this agg about “we didn’t vote for this or that” we voted to bail out so lets just get on with it on the 29th of March period !! You ■■■■■■■ Remoaners make my ■■■■■■■ teeth itch you really do !! Or do you hope that the EU idea of voting is keep going until they ( the EU) get the answer they want !! If the ■■■■■■■ Remoaners care to keep an eye on the learned comments regarding the Euro they will notice that the general opinion is that it will implode and fetch the whole stinking edifice down in a heap !! Cheers “Arch Leaver” Bewick.
Quote Whispering Smith:
“That is the worrying thing CAV - Brexit has always been the baby of the more Violent tendencies & sympathies - you only have to read many of the posts on this thread or the Right-wing press: Sun, Mail etc…”
I don’t see it that way at all. It just suits the remainers to besmirch the leave voters in that manner, after all they have been doing it as a tactic virtually since the result was announced with their constant ‘knuckle dragger’ insults.
This is the danger of a second referendum, should it then repeat the result: ie leave, then the remainers will still keep harping on but the violent tendencies will still seize the opportunity to create mayhem. This is why a second referendum is so dangerous. whichever way it might go the result will still be same - because the politicians betrayed the people by renaging on instructions they were given, but neither liked nor concurred, they decide to have another attempt to get the answer they want.
They do so at their peril. If they cannot come to an agreement with the EU then they must let the original default option of No Deal prevail. They were elected by the people of the country; they were not elected by big business.
Oh, the remainers say, we must listen to big business they might pull out of the UK - yes they might, but their track record over the last 40 years IN the EU hasn’t stopped them pulling out in that time, nor will it stop them in the future if they do get their way; if they see the opportunity to make another shekel by doing so they will be off.
whisperingsmith:
> cav551:
> I hope I am wrong but as I have all along, I still predict massive violence if the electorate are betrayed by the politicians.That is the worrying thing CAV - Brexit has always been the baby of the more Violent tendencies & sympathies - you only have to read many of the posts on this thread or the Right-wing press: Sun, Mail etc…
Hopefully - whatever the outcome the Majority in Britain will come together for the common good & keep the violent minority at bay
Now the Euro Federalists ( call them what they really are nothing to do with left v right ) want to re write history by suggesting that Benn’s and Shore’s supporters were the violent tendency of the Labour Party. 
As for coming together history shows that there can be no coming together of the ideological difference between Nationalist v Federalist more often than not having to be settled by force.The problem in this case being that the Head of State and her forces are on the Federalists’ side not that of the Nationalists.Which is why Heath wasn’t arrested on the orders of the Queen for treason choosing instead to grant Royal Assent to the European Communities Act.It’s also why the forces haven’t acted,regarding the wannabee undeclared De Jure superstate of the EU,illegally trying to hijack the established National protocols,which apply between the legitimate internationally recognised de Facto states of Eire and UK.Also claiming the Irish side of that border as its own and illegally trying to dissolve those protocols as part of that.
As for the Mail isn’t that since recently just another pro EU Federalist propaganda outlet ?.
I notice that both JLR and Ford have chosen the cover of Brexit to announce major restructuring , very convenient, when as far as JLR are concerned it is as a result of a slow down in sales in China ( nowt to do with Brexit) and the kick in the “goolies” Diesel engines have received ! again nothing to do with Brexit ! But hey ! they ( Ford & JLR) will use any opportunity to cover up their mismanagement so it’s just another opportunity to cover their arses ! IMHO Ford deserve all the bad luck they are getting, as they have deserted the UK but still expect to sell '000’s of vehicles here ! and just to-night they are more-or-less flagging up the intended closure of their S. Wales engine plant ! Cheers Bewick.
Oh dear, it all went wrong for John Humphries when he thought that those who became eligible to vote since the referendum would obviously be remainers. He had to resort to silencing certain ‘off message’ speakers.
Bewick:
This is squarely aimed at all you [zb] Remoaners ! We had a referendum in 2016 which asked the simple , straight forward, question " Do you want to leave the EU or do you want to remain in the EU". 17:4 million UK voters chose LEAVE !! We weren’t presented with a [zb] toilet roll length of what if this or that outcome !! In 1975 we weren’t given any options either just a straight “in or out” ( I voted to stay out !) so why all this agg about “we didn’t vote for this or that” we voted to bail out so lets just get on with it on the 29th of March period !! You [zb] Remoaners make my [zb] teeth itch you really do !! Or do you hope that the EU idea of voting is keep going until they ( the EU) get the answer they want !! If the [zb] Remoaners care to keep an eye on the learned comments regarding the Euro they will notice that the general opinion is that it will implode and fetch the whole stinking edifice down in a heap !! Cheers “Arch Leaver” Bewick.
What we ‘actually’ had was a non binding opinion poll that obviously suddenly and conveniently would have been regarded as binding if Remain had rigged the poll well enough as in 1975.As for the idea of being able to vote an established recognised Nation State out of existence and into the illegitimate non country of the EU.It seems strange how there wasn’t a referendum to allow the German Federation to impose the larger Federation of the 3rd Reich on Europe in 1939 thereby saving us all the bother of going to war.Bearing in mind that Federalism supposedly = peace and prosperity so how much more peaceful and prosperous it supposedly would have been in the case of the by definition peaceful and prosperous German Federation building the larger obviously even more peaceful and prosperous 3rd Reich European Federation.
Bewick:
I notice that both JLR and Ford have chosen the cover of Brexit to announce major restructuring , very convenient, when as far as JLR are concerned it is as a result of a slow down in sales in China ( nowt to do with Brexit) and the kick in the “goolies” Diesel engines have received ! again nothing to do with Brexit ! But hey ! they ( Ford & JLR) will use any opportunity to cover up their mismanagement so it’s just another opportunity to cover their arses ! IMHO Ford deserve all the bad luck they are getting, as they have deserted the UK but still expect to sell '000’s of vehicles here ! and just to-night they are more-or-less flagging up the intended closure of their S. Wales engine plant ! Cheers Bewick.
What a surprise the American establishment doesn’t like secession.Who would have thought it.
As for JLR it seems strange why they’d choose to ignore rival BMW and Mercedes sales in the UK v its own and Jaguar has petrol options in its line up.So what’s the problem hit the Germans with import taxes to the advantage of domestic Jaguar sales and if anyone wants to buy a petrol Jag what’s stopping them ?.China bs.
Juddian:
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/01/11/theresa-mays-brexit-deal-is-a-trap/
bring on ‘No Deal’ i say.
This rubbish about Ford and JLR. Ford announced a year ago they were going to close half of the engine plant at bridge end and there is a guy called Radcliffe that want’s to take it on to build a version of the old land rover defender if he can’t do a deal there he will do it in Germany but he rely want’s to do it in Bridge End. They did not mention that on the new’s did they. Just more scare mongering. 
(viva la revolution) Also forgot to say he is also a Brexit supporter that’s why he is pushing to get it built in Bridge End.
whisperingsmith:
> cav551:
> I hope I am wrong but as I have all along, I still predict massive violence if the electorate are betrayed by the politicians.That is the worrying thing CAV - Brexit has always been the baby of the more Violent tendencies & sympathies - you only have to read many of the posts on this thread or the Right-wing press: Sun, Mail etc…
Hopefully - whatever the outcome the Majority in Britain will come together for the common good & keep the violent minority at bay
Indeed, Whispering, but there is a glimmer of hope in that the majority of the Brexshiteer moaners (why do they call us remoaners, just look through this thread and see who’s doing all the real moaning?) are all old fogies still living in the Empire who would be hard put to chuck a pebble at a copper, much less a brick. I’m in the same boat these days but I have no desire to chuck anything at anybody, but it is the young who will form the large majority who can see their future being poured down the drain, who will hold sway.
I have accepted the flawed referendum, just don’t agree with it. No cause to take up arms for.
The loony old right will soon fade away as all oldies, loony right and otherwise, do. 
Be interesting to see who gets to pay for everything when us old loony right/left/indifferent finally clock off.
So far socialism, of which the EU is a prime example of all that is wrong with the cult (hasn’t resulted in the violent deaths of as many innocents as previous regimes of the USSR China and Germany and other socialist utopias, but give it time) that exists to attain power by spending money other people have earned.
We’ll see how kindly the current noisy generations desperate to hand over their country take to having their salaries and wealth taken in ever greater measures via taxation of one form or another when they’ve had a lifetime of 60 hour weeks of hard graft under their belts, when they find they have no say no vote and no influence over the appointments of decision makers apparatchiks and rulers, and when they suddenly find if they object to what is being done to them (or their country when the penny finally drops that it’s morphed into Mogadishu) that they are up before an unaccountable foreign court on hate speech crime charges.
Very varied views on here of late, reading last couple of days that German industry is going into a depression hoorah ! maybe they wont be so confident in the future as there economy was one of the strongest in Europe. Not much confidence in the Euro either of late and a lot of money being taken out of Euro banks and put else ware, the fear is that the EU will self destruct in the next four years anyway with the Brexit thing helping its demise along.
Every one and his dog are waiting the outcome of TM’s vote and if she fails what next, there seems to be a band of MP’s that don’t want a no deal scenario at any cost and will try and extend the leaving date past the March the 29th deadline, where has our democracy gone ?
Just hope I live long enough to see the end to this corrupt organisation that is the EU, cant imagine how much it costs to run but I think we would all be staggered if that figure was actually published for us simpletons to peruse, here’s hoping for a clean break and lets get on, Buzzer.
Juddian:
Be interesting to see who gets to pay for everything when us old loony right/left/indifferent finally clock off.So far socialism, of which the EU is a prime example of all that is wrong with the cult (hasn’t resulted in the violent deaths of as many innocents as previous regimes of the USSR China and Germany and other socialist utopias, but give it time) that exists to attain power by spending money other people have earned.
We’ll see how kindly the current noisy generations desperate to hand over their country take to having their salaries and wealth taken in ever greater measures via taxation of one form or another when they’ve had a lifetime of 60 hour weeks of hard graft under their belts, when they find they have no say no vote and no influence over the appointments of decision makers apparatchiks and rulers, and when they suddenly find if they object to what is being done to them (or their country when the penny finally drops that it’s morphed into Mogadishu) that they are up before an unaccountable foreign court on hate speech crime charges.
Very succinctly put Juddian. Thank you for bringing the argument back to the only issue which matters. Forget trading arrangements, forget the economy, forget the wishes of big business, forget all of these and everything else except the one vital issue:
Who is running the country? the British people via their parliament or another external organisation telling that parliament what to do and charging its people for the privilege?
All other issues pale into insignificance if the country and its people do not have control over its policy and legal decisions.
Ford have announced mass redundancies at its Bridgend Engine Plant. Some people and institutions are quick to blame Brexit, (the uncertainty of which doubtless plays a part) whilst disregarding several other circumstances. In 2015, production of engines for Volvo was moved to Volvo’s own plants in Sweden and China. The contract to build engines for Jaguar Land Rover was always scheduled to end next year when JLR begins to produce its own engines at Wolverhampton, bringing the combined production at Bridgend down from 750,000 units per year to 250,000. Despite a £15 million investment from the Welsh government, the company cannot maintain the current workforce on such a reduced workload. JLR’s “problems” in the UK stem more from their over-reliance on the now-demonized diesel engines, (90% of output) and a massive fall of 60% in their largest market, China. Another factor is the recent increase in capacity at their Chinese and Brazilian plants, plus the new factory in Slovakia - all of which, I suspect, pay their employees rather less in real terms than their British counterparts.
Buzzer:
Very varied views on here of late, reading last couple of days that German industry is going into a depression hoorah ! maybe they wont be so confident in the future as there economy was one of the strongest in Europe. .
It’s ok your ■■■■ crowing at the imminent demise of Germany, Buzzer, but the one thing the world does not need is a re-run of the collapse and depression in that country in the 1920s and '30s. We all know where that led.
cav551:
Who is running the country? the British people via their parliament or another external organisation telling that parliament what to do and charging its people for the privilege?
Well it seems that that is just what your fellow leaver, Ramone, desires. That the British Parliament should not decide anything that Brexiteers don’t like.
Spardo:
Buzzer:
Very varied views on here of late, reading last couple of days that German industry is going into a depression hoorah ! maybe they wont be so confident in the future as there economy was one of the strongest in Europe. .It’s ok your ■■■■ crowing at the imminent demise of Germany, Buzzer, but the one thing the world does not need is a re-run of the collapse and depression in that country in the 1920s and '30s. We all know where that led.
cav551:
Who is running the country? the British people via their parliament or another external organisation telling that parliament what to do and charging its people for the privilege?Well it seems that that is just what your fellow leaver, Ramone, desires. That the British Parliament should not decide anything that Brexiteers don’t like.
Would you prefer “Europeans” to run OUR country or us ? … at least we can vote out our rabble ffs
Spardo:
Buzzer:
Very varied views on here of late, reading last couple of days that German industry is going into a depression hoorah ! maybe they wont be so confident in the future as there economy was one of the strongest in Europe. .It’s ok your ■■■■ crowing at the imminent demise of Germany, Buzzer, but the one thing the world does not need is a re-run of the collapse and depression in that country in the 1920s and '30s. We all know where that led.
cav551:
Who is running the country? the British people via their parliament or another external organisation telling that parliament what to do and charging its people for the privilege?Well it seems that that is just what your fellow leaver, Ramone, desires. That the British Parliament should not decide anything that Brexiteers don’t like.
I can’t speak for Ramone, but that is a disingenuous remark. 
The Brexiteers are not worried about parliament making decisions they don’t like, they are worried about it potentially ignoring the result of a referendum and an election which in this instance instructed parliament to leave the EU. They are angered by the remain majority in that parliament who clearly intend to ensure that the UK stays in the EU, thereby defying and hence betraying the will of their masters. That is treasonous so they would do well to remember that.
ramone:
Would you prefer “Europeans” to run OUR country or us ? … at least we can vote out our rabble ffs
But you can’t, at least you can’t be sure of getting rid of the majority that doesn’t agree with you. As I said, if you believe in your parliamentary democracy, you have to go along with the ones you vote to legislate for you.
I know you will say Parliament voted to hold the referendum, but now the majority have realised that to give a carte blanche guarantee that it would be binding (which is against all custom and practice in the British way) was a foolish thing to do, in view of the now obvious fact that they didn’t realise exactly what the result would entail, and have now changed their minds.
The whole point of a democracy is that people can change their minds, otherwise there is no point to it because there would be no point in ever having elections at all.
Cue CF, who will now say that I am advocating an end to elections. For the record, no, I am not, in fact quite the opposite, I am advocating that in the current system (which I think is seriously flawed, but that is another matter) you vote for the representatives you want, and if you don’t like the way it turns out, you change your mind and vote differently in 5 year’s time.
Spardo:
ramone:
Would you prefer “Europeans” to run OUR country or us ? … at least we can vote out our rabble ffsBut you can’t, at least you can’t be sure of getting rid of the majority that doesn’t agree with you. As I said, if you believe in your parliamentary democracy, you have to go along with the ones you vote to legislate for you.
I know you will say Parliament voted to hold the referendum, but now the majority have realised that to give a carte blanche guarantee that it would be binding (which is against all custom and practice in the British way) was a foolish thing to do, in view of the now obvious fact that they didn’t realise exactly what the result would entail, and have now changed their minds.
The whole point of a democracy is that people can change their minds, otherwise there is no point to it because there would be no point in ever having elections at all.
Cue CF, who will now say that I am advocating an end to elections. For the record, no, I am not, in fact quite the opposite, I am advocating that in the current system (which I think is seriously flawed, but that is another matter) you vote for the representatives you want, and if you don’t like the way it turns out, you change your mind and vote differently in 5 year’s time.
Err… You can’t have it both ways -
Don’t like the result of the referendum? then hold another one before the result of the first one is fully implemented, when it appears you might get your way on the rather dubious presumption that sufficient voters have changed their mind.
Don’t like the result so expect that your wishes as above will happen? but then tell those who do like the original result that they will have to wait five years for an election if they don’t like the outcome of your referendum.
That’s heads I win, tails you lose. That’s your democracy is it? Oh forgive me for a second I forgot, that is the whole basis of the current remain argument.
Take this second referendum argument to its logical conclusion and we have a case for having a referendum or four on whether we like a government’s latest budget or not.