steamydaz:
Unless it’s changed from 25 years ago yes you can drive a unit on a class 2. Would you believe you were able to drive a unit on a car licence if it didn’t have a 5th wheel fitted because it was under 7.5 tonne! Hope you get sorted.
That contains the contradiction in the idea that it was ‘always’ the case that driving a tractive unit component of an ‘artic’ without the trailer makes it a rigid.
The old HGV categories were based on vehicle design and construction not just use.Under that rule there was no category for a rigid with a trailer only rigids regardless of wether they were pulling any ( drawbar ) trailer or not.Or there were vehicles ‘designed and constructed’ as artics.In which case for the purposes of licencing it was considered an artic wether it was a unit running solo or not,
Whereas the C+E is a literal category in that it only becomes a rigid ‘+ a trailer’ when it’s actually pulling a trailer coupled to it and with no actual seperate category for artics.
Which explains why a tractor unit ‘could’ only be driven with an artic licence wether it was under or over 7.5t so long as it remained ‘designed and constructed’ as the tractor component of an artic outfit.Which obviously removing or putting the fifth wheel out of use removed thereby making it a rigid not ‘designed and constructed’ as an artic.
IE the logical conclusion of driving a sub 7.5 t unit on a car licence would actually have translated in law as driving up to a 32/38t gross weight artic on a car licence ‘unless’ the fifth wheel was disabled beyond use.
While driving an over 7.5t tractor on a class 3 or 2 would have translated as driving ‘an artic’ on a rigid licence without same.
I have had a class I license since 1991 with 102 restriction meaning I could drive a wag and drag but not an artic. However I could of driven my wag and drag to the driving test without L plates then done the test in the wag and drag with L plates and come out with a class 1 artic licence. Is it any wonder people get confused?
These are the same people who have changed PSV to PCV HGV to LGV and then on the licence called them C D C+E and D+E but not changed a single road sign?
alder:
I have had a class I license since 1991 with 102 restriction meaning I could drive a wag and drag but not an artic. However I could of driven my wag and drag to the driving test without L plates then done the test in the wag and drag with L plates and come out with a class 1 artic licence. Is it any wonder people get confused?
These are the same people who have changed PSV to PCV HGV to LGV and then on the licence called them C D C+E and D+E but not changed a single road sign?
I passed class three in 1985 and now have the same 102 restriction, but to get a full C+E I would need to pass a C+E test in a full articulated unit. At 50 years old i I am finally getting around to it courtisy of the company lol.
alder:
I have had a class I license since 1991 with 102 restriction meaning I could drive a wag and drag but not an artic. However I could of driven my wag and drag to the driving test without L plates then done the test in the wag and drag with L plates and come out with a class 1 artic licence. Is it any wonder people get confused?
These are the same people who have changed PSV to PCV HGV to LGV and then on the licence called them C D C+E and D+E but not changed a single road sign?
I passed class three in 1985 and now have the same 102 restriction, but to get a full C+E I would need to pass a C+E test in a full articulated unit. At 50 years old i I am finally getting around to it courtisy of the company lol.
Yep same here Class 3 in the army 1977 since 1991 it was converted (same for you I think) to class 2 or class 1 with a 102 restriction. You can do your test in a wag and drag as I said but I wanted to do the training in an artic and the test in the same vehicle, so I took two weeks out in 2013 did my CPC and then class 1 to go onto artics. Only did 3 days training Mon Tues and Thurs and passed my test on the Friday morning. It was a doddle, go for it mate
alder:
I have had a class I license since 1991 with 102 restriction meaning I could drive a wag and drag but not an artic. However I could of driven my wag and drag to the driving test without L plates then done the test in the wag and drag with L plates and come out with a class 1 artic licence. Is it any wonder people get confused?
These are the same people who have changed PSV to PCV HGV to LGV and then on the licence called them C D C+E and D+E but not changed a single road sign?
Going back many years when the HGV licence was introduced there were eight groups, 1 1A 2 2A 3 3A 4 4A. The A denoting automatic transmission. Regarding the PSV this comprised of licences for double deckers and single deckers and again manual or auto transmission. I am not sure whether the length was a relevant factor as well.
The definition of auto was basically a two pedal arrangement, however London Transport managed to get the rules changed to include pre-select gearboxes as auto.despite them having three pedals. The reason for this was to stop people getting a manual licence from LT and immediately leaving to drive a coach or other manual transmission PSV.
alder:
I have had a class I license since 1991 with 102 restriction meaning I could drive a wag and drag but not an artic. However I could of driven my wag and drag to the driving test without L plates then done the test in the wag and drag with L plates and come out with a class 1 artic licence. Is it any wonder people get confused?
These are the same people who have changed PSV to PCV HGV to LGV and then on the licence called them C D C+E and D+E but not changed a single road sign?
Going back many years when the HGV licence was introduced there were eight groups, 1 1A 2 2A 3 3A 4 4A. The A denoting automatic transmission. Regarding the PSV this comprised of licences for double deckers and single deckers and again manual or auto transmission. I am not sure whether the length was a relevant factor as well.
The definition of auto was basically a two pedal arrangement, however London Transport managed to get the rules changed to include pre-select gearboxes as auto.despite them having three pedals. The reason for this was to stop people getting a manual licence from LT and immediately leaving to drive a coach or other manual transmission PSV.
I did my HGV 3 in the army 1977 in a Bedford RL crash gear box, the type they used in north Africa in WW2 !!! If you did not double the clutch at exactly the right time the whole world heard your gears grind lol
I did my PSV with United bus company Darlington in 1979 and again crash gear box double decker 1953 Bristol, the ones with the cab separate at the front and the instructor and other learner driver sat behind and below you. I loved those buses as you were out on your own. You can see them now on On the buses with blakey and reg varney lol
alder:
I have had a class I license since 1991 with 102 restriction meaning I could drive a wag and drag but not an artic. However I could of driven my wag and drag to the driving test without L plates then done the test in the wag and drag with L plates and come out with a class 1 artic licence. Is it any wonder people get confused?
These are the same people who have changed PSV to PCV HGV to LGV and then on the licence called them C D C+E and D+E but not changed a single road sign?
Going back many years when the HGV licence was introduced there were eight groups, 1 1A 2 2A 3 3A 4 4A. The A denoting automatic transmission. Regarding the PSV this comprised of licences for double deckers and single deckers and again manual or auto transmission. I am not sure whether the length was a relevant factor as well.
The definition of auto was basically a two pedal arrangement, however London Transport managed to get the rules changed to include pre-select gearboxes as auto.despite them having three pedals. The reason for this was to stop people getting a manual licence from LT and immediately leaving to drive a coach or other manual transmission PSV.
I did my HGV 3 in the army 1977 in a Bedford RL crash gear box, the type they used in north Africa in WW2 !!! If you did not double the clutch at exactly the right time the whole world heard your gears grind lol
I did my PSV with United bus company Darlington in 1979 and again crash gear box double decker 1953 Bristol, the ones with the cab separate at the front and the instructor and other learner driver sat behind and below you. I loved those buses as you were out on your own. You can see them now on On the buses with blakey and reg varney lol
yup and you got a great big bruise on your left arm when trying to select third gear as the steering wheel was so big
Yes those steering wheels were huge and you had to move your whole upper body to turn the ■■■■ things. Do you remember that there was no or very little power steering so you had to move the vehicle to get it to turn You could not stand still like today and turn it full lock with your little finger
alder:
I have had a class I license since 1991 with 102 restriction meaning I could drive a wag and drag but not an artic. However I could of driven my wag and drag to the driving test without L plates then done the test in the wag and drag with L plates and come out with a class 1 artic licence. Is it any wonder people get confused?
These are the same people who have changed PSV to PCV HGV to LGV and then on the licence called them C D C+E and D+E but not changed a single road sign?
Going back many years when the HGV licence was introduced there were eight groups, 1 1A 2 2A 3 3A 4 4A. The A denoting automatic transmission. Regarding the PSV this comprised of licences for double deckers and single deckers and again manual or auto transmission. I am not sure whether the length was a relevant factor as well.
The definition of auto was basically a two pedal arrangement, however London Transport managed to get the rules changed to include pre-select gearboxes as auto.despite them having three pedals. The reason for this was to stop people getting a manual licence from LT and immediately leaving to drive a coach or other manual transmission PSV.
I did my HGV 3 in the army 1977 in a Bedford RL crash gear box, the type they used in north Africa in WW2 !!! If you did not double the clutch at exactly the right time the whole world heard your gears grind lol
I did my PSV with United bus company Darlington in 1979 and again crash gear box double decker 1953 Bristol, the ones with the cab separate at the front and the instructor and other learner driver sat behind and below you. I loved those buses as you were out on your own. You can see them now on On the buses with blakey and reg varney lol
yup and you got a great big bruise on your left arm when trying to select third gear as the steering wheel was so big
Those were the good old days, I have driven the Bristol K and LD which both had crash boxes. I own a coach but that has a nice synchromesh box so no tunes to play.
Reading this thread has made me wonder about something. If you have had a C+ E with a 102 restriction for years and you decide to take a test in your wagon and drag to try to obtain a C+E with no restriction ( I.E. an artic licence ), what happens if you fail ? Can you carry on as before, driving your wagon and drag , or do you get " demoted " to a class C licence ?
Sorry if I’m being a bit thick but I’m not sure how it works.
Regards John.
old 67:
Reading this thread has made me wonder about something. If you have had a C+ E with a 102 restriction for years and you decide to take a test in your wagon and drag to try to obtain a C+E with no restriction ( I.E. an artic licence ), what happens if you fail ? Can you carry on as before, driving your wagon and drag , or do you get " demoted " to a class C licence ?
Sorry if I’m being a bit thick but I’m not sure how it works.
Regards John.
Carry on as normal, your/my restriction is on my licence. But to upgrade that entitlement I need to take my test in a fully articulated vehicle to gain a full C E
This was one of the first questions I asked when was training for my C.
Senior driver trainer at scania newbridge answered me by saying, you can drive a solo unit with rigid licence if the 5th wheel is locked off with one of those covers or removed completely as you cannot drive a vehicle that is actually designed for towing with only a rigid licence.
I would take his answer over anyone else’s unless of course was definite proof in front of me, but also this doesn’t matter to me anymore as I’m a real trucker now
Ryy86:
This was one of the first questions I asked when was training for my C.
Senior driver trainer at scania newbridge answered me by saying, you can drive a solo unit with rigid licence if the 5th wheel is locked off with one of those covers or removed completely as you cannot drive a vehicle that is actually designed for towing with only a rigid licence.
I would take his answer over anyone else’s unless of course was definite proof in front of me, but also this doesn’t matter to me anymore as I’m a real trucker now
old 67:
Reading this thread has made me wonder about something. If you have had a C+ E with a 102 restriction for years and you decide to take a test in your wagon and drag to try to obtain a C+E with no restriction ( I.E. an artic licence ), what happens if you fail ? Can you carry on as before, driving your wagon and drag , or do you get " demoted " to a class C licence ?
Sorry if I’m being a bit thick but I’m not sure how it works.
Regards John.
You can drive your W&D to the test, fail your test and legally drive your W&D home
You can drive vehicles over 3,500kg (with a trailer up to 750kg).
Category C+E
You can drive category C vehicles with a trailer over 750kg.
Is it over 3,500 kg? YES. Does it have a trailer? NO
Cat C then.
Anyone talking about covering up 5th wheels or saying you can’t do it all is indeed talking [zb]
I’m aware of some driving school Cat C vehicles that started their lives as artic units and got a box stuck on them when the ‘must have 8 forward ratios’ thing came in as the majority of rigids around at the time were straight 6. A little later Straight 6 with splitter became the easy way to get around the new rule. (Now rule is abolished, any gearbox can be used, even auto)
old 67:
Reading this thread has made me wonder about something. If you have had a C+ E with a 102 restriction for years and you decide to take a test in your wagon and drag to try to obtain a C+E with no restriction ( I.E. an artic licence ), what happens if you fail ? Can you carry on as before, driving your wagon and drag , or do you get " demoted " to a class C licence ?
Sorry if I’m being a bit thick but I’m not sure how it works.
Regards John.
You can drive your W&D to the test, fail your test and legally drive your W&D home
Nothing gets downgraded
We have the same at work with Americans; they can drive a car on their USA license for one year then have to take a British test. A lot drive there, fail, and drive away legally on their USA license!
Ryy86:
This was one of the first questions I asked when was training for my C.
Senior driver trainer at scania newbridge answered me by saying, you can drive a solo unit with rigid licence if the 5th wheel is locked off with one of those covers or removed completely as you cannot drive a vehicle that is actually designed for towing with only a rigid licence.
I’d guess that he’s confusing can’t drive a vehicle that’s designed to be used as an ‘artic’ on a rigid licence under the old accepted HGV class 1 definition.
With can’t drive a C that isn’t pulling a trailer but which could.Which doesn’t seem to fit the defintion of C+E.The difference being that there is no longer any specific licence type for artics and with a licence definition based on a rigid actually without a trailer or a rigid actually coupled to a trailer.Which more or less brought us into line with the continental line of thinking.
As opposed to rigid,regardless of wether it’s coupled to a trailer or not,or an artic same.
old 67:
Reading this thread has made me wonder about something. If you have had a C+ E with a 102 restriction for years and you decide to take a test in your wagon and drag to try to obtain a C+E with no restriction ( I.E. an artic licence ), what happens if you fail ? Can you carry on as before, driving your wagon and drag , or do you get " demoted " to a class C licence ?
Sorry if I’m being a bit thick but I’m not sure how it works.
Regards John.
You can drive your W&D to the test, fail your test and legally drive your W&D home
Nothing gets downgraded
you can’t take your full c+E in a wag an drag if you have 102 on your c+E you need to take a full articulated vehicle on the test
I am in that pposition at the moment
old 67:
Reading this thread has made me wonder about something. If you have had a C+ E with a 102 restriction for years and you decide to take a test in your wagon and drag to try to obtain a C+E with no restriction ( I.E. an artic licence ), what happens if you fail ? Can you carry on as before, driving your wagon and drag , or do you get " demoted " to a class C licence ?
Sorry if I’m being a bit thick but I’m not sure how it works.
Regards John.
You can drive your W&D to the test, fail your test and legally drive your W&D home
Nothing gets downgraded
you can’t take your full c+E in a wag an drag if you have 102 on your c+E you need to take a full articulated vehicle on the test
I am in that pposition at the moment
Who told you that mate? Because I believe I have seen Peter Smythe, Tockworth and ROG contradict this in the past (unless things have changed). It certainly isn’t mentioned on the vehicle requirements paper for DVSA.
old 67:
Reading this thread has made me wonder about something. If you have had a C+ E with a 102 restriction for years and you decide to take a test in your wagon and drag to try to obtain a C+E with no restriction ( I.E. an artic licence ), what happens if you fail ? Can you carry on as before, driving your wagon and drag , or do you get " demoted " to a class C licence ?
Sorry if I’m being a bit thick but I’m not sure how it works.
Regards John.
You can drive your W&D to the test, fail your test and legally drive your W&D home
Nothing gets downgraded
you can’t take your full c+E in a wag an drag if you have 102 on your c+E you need to take a full articulated vehicle on the test
I am in that pposition at the moment
Who told you that mate? Because I believe I have seen Peter Smythe, Tockworth and ROG contradict this in the past (unless things have changed). It certainly isn’t mentioned on the vehicle requirements paper for DVSA.
It might have changed, but I know Davey Driver posted on here that he’d done his test like that ( a few years ago though )
