AndrewG:
Just been told (by my yard source ) that theres a tilt being loaded with 30 1 ton bulk bags in 25kg individual bags of Caustic Soda food grade flakes in the yard bound for Calais next week and heard its got my name on it!
Now, i cant find the ltd quantities amount for non ADR. Ive been down this road before with 30,000 litres of orange oil and dont want a repeat.
Any info appreciated, maybe one for Diesel Dave?
Hi Andrew,
Sorry mate, but Iâm not making sense of the part Iâve made red.
The one thing I can say for sure at this stage is that if the caustic soda is packed in 25kg bags, then itâs NOT Limited Quantities.
quackers has correctly said that the LQ size for this substance is 1kg.
This means that the (max) 1kg packaging must then be packed into either a box (max 30kg) or a stretch wrapped tray (max 20kg) to take advantage of the LQ rules.
From your other post:
AndrewG:
Overall package size 30kg. These are 25kg bags only theres going to be 1200 of them ie 40x25kg bags in a 1 tonne bulk bag. Apparently these are the agg bags we use for polished stone ectâŚ
Now itâs making more sense to me.
Many people get confused between the LQ rules and the âsmall loadâ rules.
The âsmall loadâ rules exemption for this substance is 333kg, so youâre not going to be able to take advantage of that one either.
The âsmall loadâ rules have no connection to the LQ rules, they are completely separate notions.
By my reckoningâŚ
1200 bags X 25kg per bag = the 30t you mentioned in your OP.
Therefore, ADR applies in full because 30,000kg is slightly in excess of the âfreebieâ allowance of 333kg.
The minimum ADR licence required for this job is UN Class 8 in packages.
(= a figure 8 in the âother than tanks columnâ on the back of an ADR card.)
Another way to look at this is to see how many sacks you can carry without an ADR licence as follows:
The âfreebieâ allowance of 333kg divided by the sack size of 25kg = you can carry 13 sacks at a time without an ADR licence.
Unless somebody stumps up for an ADR course, youâd need 93 journeys shift the whole load in this way.
Thanks Dave. As you know Iâm fairly new to ADR and have in fact only had to use it once thus far, but that was all sorted for me of course, our firm are very hot on compliance.
I confess I was being thrown by the packaging sizes.
AndrewG:
Just been told (by my yard source ) that theres a tilt being loaded with 30 1 ton bulk bags in 25kg individual bags of Caustic Soda food grade flakes in the yard bound for Calais next week and heard its got my name on it!
Now, i cant find the ltd quantities amount for non ADR. Ive been down this road before with 30,000 litres of orange oil and dont want a repeat.
Any info appreciated, maybe one for Diesel Dave?
Hi Andrew,
Sorry mate, but Iâm not making sense of the part Iâve made red.
The one thing I can say for sure at this stage is that if the caustic soda is packed in 25kg bags, then itâs NOT Limited Quantities.
quackers has correctly said that the LQ size for this substance is 1kg.
This means that the (max) 1kg packaging must then be packed into either a box (max 30kg) or a stretch wrapped tray (max 20kg) to take advantage of the LQ rules.
From your other post:
AndrewG:
Overall package size 30kg. These are 25kg bags only theres going to be 1200 of them ie 40x25kg bags in a 1 tonne bulk bag. Apparently these are the agg bags we use for polished stone ectâŚ
Now itâs making more sense to me.
Many people get confused between the LQ rules and the âsmall loadâ rules.
The âsmall loadâ rules exemption for this substance is 333kg, so youâre not going to be able to take advantage of that one either.
The âsmall loadâ rules have no connection to the LQ rules, they are completely separate notions.
By my reckoningâŚ
1200 bags X 25kg per bag = the 30t you mentioned in your OP.
Therefore, ADR applies in full because 30,000kg is slightly in excess of the âfreebieâ allowance of 333kg.
The minimum ADR licence required for this job is UN Class 8 in packages.
(= a figure 8 in the âother than tanks columnâ on the back of an ADR card.)
Another way to look at this is to see how many sacks you can carry without an ADR licence as follows:
The âfreebieâ allowance of 333kg divided by the sack size of 25kg = you can carry 13 sacks at a time without an ADR licence.
Unless somebody stumps up for an ADR course, youâd need 93 journeys shift the whole load in this way.
Thanks Dave. As you know Iâm fairly new to ADR and have in fact only had to use it once thus far, but that was all sorted for me of course, our firm are very hot on compliance.
I confess I was being thrown by the packaging sizes.
Hi Sidevalve,
Those limits and the different types of exemptions are mainstays of the DGSA exams, and they catch out many aspiring DGSA candidates who have sat a DGSA course, so a driver can easily be forgiven.
We have to mention the limits and exemptions to drivers on an ADR course, but it should be pointed out to drivers that they arenât actually responsible for knowing/calculating ADR limits and exemptions.
That responsibility falls to the carrier (= vehicle owner) based on info supplied by the consignor (= sender) both of whom are required by ADR to have (or employ) a properly qualified DGSA.
DieselDave, I wondered if you could share where you found the Limited Quantities and Small Load amounts for the Sodium Hydroxide please. Is there some kind of book or website with substances and amounts listed?
I donât have an ADR (yet) and wouldnât have the first clue where to start if I was asked to move a hazardous load and told I wouldnât need ADR as it is covered under the Small Amounts/Limited Quantites exemption etc
Out of curiosity, if a truck was carrying a hazardous substance and double manned but only 1 driver was ADR qualified, would the non-ADR driver be ok to drive as long as the ADR person is in the passenger seat?
Those limits and the different types of exemptions are mainstays of the DGSA exams, and they catch out many aspiring DGSA candidates who have sat a DGSA course, so a driver can easily be forgiven.
We have to mention the limits and exemptions to drivers on an ADR course, but it should be pointed out to drivers that they arenât actually responsible for knowing/calculating ADR limits and exemptions.
That responsibility falls to the carrier (= vehicle owner) based on info supplied by the consignor (= sender) both of whom are required by ADR to have (or employ) a properly qualified DGSA.
Cheers mate I feel better now; was a bit worried that nowt had stuck after those five days!
I had the same issues as Hyh, actually finding the info. Iâm assuming it would be in the Instructions in Writing, which of course would be specific to each consignment; please correct me if Iâm wrong.
Hyh:
DieselDave, I wondered if you could share where you found the Limited Quantities and Small Load amounts for the Sodium Hydroxide please. Is there some kind of book or website with substances and amounts listed?
Hi Hyh,
Yes, there a book⌠actually, itâs two books.
The books have approx. 1,300 pages and are 2.5 inches thick. They weigh approx. 3.6Kg and cost ÂŁ110ish for the hard copy version.
Then youâd need a course that costs the thick end of ÂŁ1,000. All that assumes that you can pass the three written exams that a DGSA needs in order to qualify.
There are also some other books that youâd need, because UK Regs sometimes do things a bit differently to the way that ADR does them.
Hyh:
I donât have an ADR (yet) and wouldnât have the first clue where to start if I was asked to move a hazardous load and told I wouldnât need ADR as it is covered under the Small Amounts/Limited Quantites exemption etc
If you re-read my answers above, youâll see that itâs NOT an employed driverâs responsibility to know or be answerable for these things.
An employed driver does what his boss tells him, but the boss is both responsible and answerable whether he likes it or not.
ADR also says that the sender is responsible for telling the carrier the correct info about the load to be carried.
The sender AND the carrier must both have a properly qualified DGSA.
Things are a little different for the OP in this topic though, because heâs an owner-driver.
In ADR, he is the carrier. A carrier is responsible and answerable because thatâs what ADR says about it.
Hyh:
Out of curiosity, if a truck was carrying a hazardous substance and double manned but only 1 driver was ADR qualified, would the non-ADR driver be ok to drive as long as the ADR person is in the passenger seat?
The simple answer is NO, because ADR says that the driver must hold the qualification. It doesnât work in the same way as a qualified driver supervising a learner driver.
Those limits and the different types of exemptions are mainstays of the DGSA exams, and they catch out many aspiring DGSA candidates who have sat a DGSA course, so a driver can easily be forgiven.
We have to mention the limits and exemptions to drivers on an ADR course, but it should be pointed out to drivers that they arenât actually responsible for knowing/calculating ADR limits and exemptions.
That responsibility falls to the carrier (= vehicle owner) based on info supplied by the consignor (= sender) both of whom are required by ADR to have (or employ) a properly qualified DGSA.
Cheers mate I feel better now; was a bit worried that nowt had stuck after those five days!
I had the same issues as Hyh, actually finding the info. Iâm assuming it would be in the Instructions in Writing, which of course would be specific to each consignment; please correct me if Iâm wrong.
Sorry Sidevalve, The ADR instructions in writing (IIW) are very generic and NOT substance specific.
Iâve just thought⌠a 25kg plastic container that then gets about a cupful of water splashed into it - will probably melt its way out of that plastic container because of the exothermic reaction with water that then happens. Then that boiling hot vat only needs to find some tin/aluminium/antimony/arsenic or other âMetalloidâ to produce copious amounts of hydrogen gas, that will likely find a source of ignition.
(Sodium Hyrdoxide doesnât just have amphoteric reactions with metals like Aluminium - but also reacts with group 4 and 5 to produce spontaneously flammable hydrides, such as Arsine, Stibine, and Phosphine - which also create poison gas clouds.
âŚPerhaps this seemingly unlikely chain of events might be the reason we see so much of this on our roads todayâŚ?
I donât doubt the accuracy and logic of the info in your post, but it raises a question for me, a non-chemist.
Winseer:
⌠a 25kg plastic container that then gets about a cupful of water splashed into it - will probably melt its way out of that plastic container because of the exothermic reaction with water that then happens.
Itâs an honest question⌠would there be enough heat produced to cause the outcome you described?
I can tell people the legalities they need to know about the ADR carriage requirements for âstuffâ but Iâve no idea of the reasoning or science behind it all.
Donât hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. Itâs a mother, beautiful bridge, and itâs gonna be there. Ok?
Wheel Nut:
Donât hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. Itâs a mother, beautiful bridge, and itâs gonna be there. Ok?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
He, I can pick up 60 feet of Bailey bridge almost anywhereâŚ
I donât doubt the accuracy and logic of the info in your post, but it raises a question for me, a non-chemist.
Winseer:
⌠a 25kg plastic container that then gets about a cupful of water splashed into it - will probably melt its way out of that plastic container because of the exothermic reaction with water that then happens.
Itâs an honest question⌠would there be enough heat produced to cause the outcome you described?
I can tell people the legalities they need to know about the ADR carriage requirements for âstuffâ but Iâve no idea of the reasoning or science behind it all.
The ADR warning signs for Caustic Soda - seemed to have ommitted the fact that this stuff heats up to around 400 Celcius when you add water to the dry flakes/granules. If they are in a sealed plastic container - then that dryness is assured, up until the container gets compromised by a knock, bump, spear-through by shifting other load etc. The adding of water to flakes rather than flakes to water concentrates the heat enough that 400 Celsius is enough to melt itâs way out of the plastic container.
If the flakes are merely exposed to the air - then they gradually get wet, which allows the heat to disperse gradually, and then the danger is merely concentrated damp-wet caustic soda solution which will attack Aluminium, Flesh, and Glass in particular. It is this latter danger that is elaborated on in the ADR warnings - NOT the exothermic reaction with the sudden addition of water to which I advise and warn here.
I am aiming to advise fellow drivers of the unspoken danger then, of this very dangerous situation involving boiling concentrated sodium hydroxide solution flying about.
This is the less-dangerous adding a small amount of granules to a larger amount of water. You donât need a thermometer in there to see that this water, that has started at near 100 degrees for (for effect) easily heats up way beyond that instantly on the addition of granules.
The vid uses hot water to accelerate the rate of this reaction even further then⌠An eye-opener indeed - especially if this is the last thing you can expect to see if a container gotten wet boils up in your face!
Wheel Nut:
Donât hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. Itâs a mother, beautiful bridge, and itâs gonna be there. Ok?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ka Boom.Oh no it ainât.I told you we should have listened to Winseer.
Wheel Nut:
Donât hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. Itâs a mother, beautiful bridge, and itâs gonna be there. Ok?
He, I can pick up 60 feet of Bailey bridge almost anywhereâŚ
If Winseerâs right youâre gonna need it.The question is how much will the price have gone up now the bridge suppliers have read Winseerâs advice.
I donât doubt the accuracy and logic of the info in your post, but it raises a question for me, a non-chemist.
Winseer:
⌠a 25kg plastic container that then gets about a cupful of water splashed into it - will probably melt its way out of that plastic container because of the exothermic reaction with water that then happens.
Itâs an honest question⌠would there be enough heat produced to cause the outcome you described?
I can tell people the legalities they need to know about the ADR carriage requirements for âstuffâ but Iâve no idea of the reasoning or science behind it all.
The ADR warning signs for Caustic Soda - seemed to have ommitted the fact that this stuff heats up to around 400 Celcius when you add water to the dry flakes/granules. If they are in a sealed plastic container - then that dryness is assured, up until the container gets compromised by a knock, bump, spear-through by shifting other load etc. The adding of water to flakes rather than flakes to water concentrates the heat enough that 400 Celsius is enough to melt itâs way out of the plastic container.
If the flakes are merely exposed to the air - then they gradually get wet, which allows the heat to disperse gradually, and then the danger is merely concentrated damp-wet caustic soda solution which will attack Aluminium, Flesh, and Glass in particular. It is this latter danger that is elaborated on in the ADR warnings - NOT the exothermic reaction with the sudden addition of water to which I advise and warn here.
I am aiming to advise fellow drivers of the unspoken danger then, of this very dangerous situation involving boiling concentrated sodium hydroxide solution flying about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZb_wPJivpo
This is the less-dangerous adding a small amount of granules to a larger amount of water. You donât need a thermometer in there to see that this water, that has started at near 100 degrees for (for effect) easily heats up way beyond that instantly on the addition of granules.
The vid uses hot water to accelerate the rate of this reaction even further then⌠An eye-opener indeed - especially if this is the last thing you can expect to see if a container gotten wet boils up in your face!
I donât doubt the accuracy and logic of the info in your post, but it raises a question for me, a non-chemist.
Winseer:
⌠a 25kg plastic container that then gets about a cupful of water splashed into it - will probably melt its way out of that plastic container because of the exothermic reaction with water that then happens.
Itâs an honest question⌠would there be enough heat produced to cause the outcome you described?
I can tell people the legalities they need to know about the ADR carriage requirements for âstuffâ but Iâve no idea of the reasoning or science behind it all.
The ADR warning signs for Caustic Soda - seemed to have ommitted the fact that this stuff heats up to around 400 Celcius when you add water to the dry flakes/granules. If they are in a sealed plastic container - then that dryness is assured, up until the container gets compromised by a knock, bump, spear-through by shifting other load etc. The adding of water to flakes rather than flakes to water concentrates the heat enough that 400 Celsius is enough to melt itâs way out of the plastic container.
If the flakes are merely exposed to the air - then they gradually get wet, which allows the heat to disperse gradually, and then the danger is merely concentrated damp-wet caustic soda solution which will attack Aluminium, Flesh, and Glass in particular. It is this latter danger that is elaborated on in the ADR warnings - NOT the exothermic reaction with the sudden addition of water to which I advise and warn here.
I am aiming to advise fellow drivers of the unspoken danger then, of this very dangerous situation involving boiling concentrated sodium hydroxide solution flying about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZb_wPJivpo
This is the less-dangerous adding a small amount of granules to a larger amount of water. You donât need a thermometer in there to see that this water, that has started at near 100 degrees for (for effect) easily heats up way beyond that instantly on the addition of granules.
The vid uses hot water to accelerate the rate of this reaction even further then⌠An eye-opener indeed - especially if this is the last thing you can expect to see if a container gotten wet boils up in your face!
Winseer,
Thatâs very impressive.
Thanks for the explanation.
There is no such company as EB GB Zorlidge. Itâs a JOKE. Do you take yourself so seriously that you are now bereft of a sense of humour. I notice that when you send me a private message there is no room for appeal, do I take it that you have now been promoted to GOD ?
) that theres a tilt being loaded with 30 1 ton bulk bags in 25kg individual bags of Caustic Soda food grade flakes in the yard bound for Calais next week and heard its got my name on it!
Another way to look at this is to see how many sacks you can carry without an ADR licence as follows:
