Having been out for the odd day as a kiddie in Atkis ERF’s and AEC drove a few plant wagons on the haul road, quarry. I decided to pass my class 1 to drive an F88 Volvo. Daf, Scania and the Mack cab over were all years ahead of the Brits.
Like an other poster said, it was mainly down to management at the British plants, ■■■■.
For reliability and power the Mack 290 with a nine speed will get you a long way.
Franglais:
muckles:
Franglais:
the nodding donkey:
But it’s all fine. Once we’re free from Europe, we can trade freely with the rest of the world.Freely. . . . .plus 20%? under World Trade Organisation rules. . . .oh, Gawd, where is this thread going. . .
Who does free trade, free movement of goods, labour, capital really benefit?
Is it the workers, who see cheap foreign labour coming putting downward pressure on their wages and conditions, or see’s their jobs lost and the operation moved to some other part of the World where there is labour costs are lower?
Is it the Worker who has to accept a reduction on their pay and conditions of employment or lose their job to a worker in another land across the World?
Is it the consumers who don’t know what goes into the goods they’re buying and instead of getting more choice really end up with less choice and global corporation merge?
Is it the Voters who find their elected representatives are powerless to bring the global corporations under control and find out these companies don’t pay the tax they should by taking the money offshore?
Or is it those at the top of the Global Corporations who can exploit the labour market, ignore the consumer and ride rough shod over elected Governments and the wishes of the voters, as they lobby for more favorable trading conditions at the threat of job loses and avoid paying for essential services in the countries they operate?
Karl Marx wrote "A study of the struggle waged by the British working class, reveals that in order to oppose their workers, the employers either bring in workers from abroad or else transfer manufacture to countries where there is a cheap labour force.”
Not a lot seems to have changed and I doubt things will get better if we continue to accept the Status Quo.
Answers on a postcard please?
Postcards are so last Century, email will be ok. 
Franglais:
Some answers may be in here: " Bad Samaritans: The Myth of Free Trade and the Secret History of Capitalism ", and “23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism” by Ha-Joon Chang. The titles sound like its heavy going but it is not that difficult to read. Keeps you awake while youre queuing for a boat or whatever.
The irony of looking them up on Google and ordering them from Amazon hasn’t been lost on me. 
Carryfast:
Jingle Jon:
And not forgetting that we were completely crap at it - deaths nail. I thought RR was/is BMW… but I’ll stand corrected.There’s a difference between being crap at making stuff.As opposed to being starved of the cash to needed make it because of geo/political/economic reasons which benefited our competitors.
To Jon,
Britain was the proud owner of the finest aviation industry. An industry that was the envy of the, entire, world. It was politics that ruined it. To fail to see the potential link between the engineers that worked for aviation and those that worked in the automotive sector fails to recognise that good manufacturing pedigree is just that.
What made Scania great in the 80s? What made Toyota great in the 70s? What made Boeing great in the 60s? Forward vision. Babes on the shoulders of a giant.Take a look at the past with the UK and transport and tell me where we didn’t lead the world in vision and then tell me somehow that vision that had lead the world by the scruff all the way through an industrial revolution through to the jet age vanished overnight. It. Was. Politics.
Also without going on a history lesson I’d recommend a visit to Brooklands racing circuit to see how our British motoring exploits were once also the envy of the world. This know how didn’t run out because we were “out of ideas” or “couldn’t see past the bouncing bomb and gas masks”
Donald Campbell ran bluebird, we were once a nation of creating such machines. We were castrated by globilastion and politics. And pretty bloody suddenly.
(Volvo is Chinese and Scania German) .
Volvo cars are now owned by Geeley of China, after Ford sold the business having bought it from AB Volvo in 1999. Volvo trucks have always been made by AB Volvo which is a public company traded on the Stockholm stock exchange.
Do we manufacturer any lorry engines or boxes chassis ?, and what about trailers / axles. ?
[/quote]
Ww still build the majority of bodies and trailers on our roads. There are some specialist products where foreign manufacturers have a decent foothold, fridges and liquid tanks for example, but the only type of trailer which we don’t build at all now are powder tanks, a pity because in the past we built some good ones.
Free trade deals with India and China in return of what 1 million work visas in return or free travel of their citizens to UK.
10% import tax to EU on cars made in UK will virtually mark them as unsaleable in the continent, agricultural products will have even higher taxes. If the French get Vauxhall they will close it, they will not touch Opel in Europe.
I dont know if euro truck are made/assembled here, but all I see on the road are euro makes and models. Is there any British truck at all?
Freight Dog:
Carryfast:
Jingle Jon:
And not forgetting that we were completely crap at it - deaths nail. I thought RR was/is BMW… but I’ll stand corrected.There’s a difference between being crap at making stuff.As opposed to being starved of the cash to needed make it because of geo/political/economic reasons which benefited our competitors.
- 1 + 1 +1
To Jon,
Britain was the proud owner of the finest aviation industry. An industry that was the envy of the, entire, world. It was politics that ruined it. To fail to see the potential link between the engineers that worked for aviation and those that worked in the automotive sector fails to recognise that good manufacturing pedigree is just that.
What made Scania great in the 80s? What made Toyota great in the 70s? What made Boeing great in the 60s? Forward vision. Babes on the shoulders of a giant.Take a look at the past with the UK and transport and tell me where we didn’t lead the world in vision and then tell me somehow that vision that had lead the world by the scruff all the way through an industrial revolution through to the jet age vanished overnight. It. Was. Politics.
Also without going on a history lesson I’d recommend a visit to Brooklands racing circuit to see how our British motoring exploits were once also the envy of the world. This know how didn’t run out because we were “out of ideas” or “couldn’t see past the bouncing bomb and gas masks”
Donald Campbell ran bluebird, we were once a nation of creating such machines. We were castrated by globilastion and politics. And pretty bloody suddenly.
You didn’t mention Frank Whittle! 
Evil8Beezle:
Freight Dog:
Carryfast:
Jingle Jon:
And not forgetting that we were completely crap at it - deaths nail. I thought RR was/is BMW… but I’ll stand corrected.There’s a difference between being crap at making stuff.As opposed to being starved of the cash to needed make it because of geo/political/economic reasons which benefited our competitors.
- 1 + 1 +1
To Jon,
Britain was the proud owner of the finest aviation industry. An industry that was the envy of the, entire, world. It was politics that ruined it. To fail to see the potential link between the engineers that worked for aviation and those that worked in the automotive sector fails to recognise that good manufacturing pedigree is just that.
What made Scania great in the 80s? What made Toyota great in the 70s? What made Boeing great in the 60s? Forward vision. Babes on the shoulders of a giant.Take a look at the past with the UK and transport and tell me where we didn’t lead the world in vision and then tell me somehow that vision that had lead the world by the scruff all the way through an industrial revolution through to the jet age vanished overnight. It. Was. Politics.
Also without going on a history lesson I’d recommend a visit to Brooklands racing circuit to see how our British motoring exploits were once also the envy of the world. This know how didn’t run out because we were “out of ideas” or “couldn’t see past the bouncing bomb and gas masks”
Donald Campbell ran bluebird, we were once a nation of creating such machines. We were castrated by globilastion and politics. And pretty bloody suddenly.
You didn’t mention Frank Whittle!
I thought that was too obvious for him so I actually took it out . I thought he could find that gem for himself
Dolph:
Free trade deals with India and China
10% import tax to EU on cars made in UK will virtually mark them as unsaleable in the continent, agricultural products will have even higher taxes. If the French get Vauxhall they will close it, they will not touch Opel in Europe.
I dont know if euro truck are made/assembled here, but all I see on the road are euro makes and models. Is there any British truck at all?
Do you really think that the French plan isn’t that of taking out all its GM competition in Europe.Of which we are just a small satellite assembly operation and as such we have more to gain by getting into a trade war with Europe than we have to to lose.IE we lose Astra exports there through tarrifs we hit PSA and Renault and VAG and all the rest with quotas.
While GM manufacturing ended here decades ago anyway with the last Vivas and Victors and Bedfords etc.Make no mistake the Polish and German plants have more to be worried about than us.While GM are just acting true to form in being a bunch of muppets just as previously having not only taken out its UK operations long ago but now also closing its Australian Holden operations.IE nothing to do with the EU but just GM acting true to form as usual in cutting off its nose to spite its face.Just as it did in the case of handing its heavy vehicle manufacturing operation over to Volvo and calling Daewoo’s Chevrolets.
On that note just like the Australian government it doesn’t make much difference to us either way unless our own government is prepared to act in the national interest.In this case in the form of kicking out the Europeans whether Opel or PSA etc and taking our own manufacturing base like Vauxhall and Leyland back from the US multinationals by compulsory purchase and if needed Nationalisation.Then applying the strict import barriers that we should have applied in 1973 instead of joining the EU.All of which I’m sure that the Trump administration would be more sympathetic to than seeing us get screwed by those with your plans in the EU for the crime of wanting to secede. 
I must be ill Carryfast is one of the people talking most sense here
Carryfast:
OVLOV JAY:
And we will also be free to make free trade deals with India,China to name but a few of our regular trading partners, all of whom we trade under wto tariffs due to our EU shackles.
If you want to break free of race to the bottom free markets to create well paid Brit jobs for well paid Brit workers then replacing EU with India and China will be like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.IE free trade is the problem not the solution and more free trade will just make matters worse.
We will be able to buy the old crap they make even cheaper.
A friend of mine who’s family run one of the biggest tipper fleets in London have been approached to evaluate a Chinese built 8 wheel tipper. They currently run a mainly Scania fleet but had a lot of hinos and only left them due to the cost of spares and poor back up so not badge snobs.
He said his dad reconed the build quality was behind the worn out second hand scammels fodens he was buying in the 80s. When he got to talking about pricing he said although they was talking a fair bit less than Scania and Volvo prices it wasn’t that far behind daf Renault and Man. Add in unknown back up spares prices and reliability he reconed he would want to be paying a lot less to take a gamble on one.
So all in all I don’t think China is the answer.
Once brexit negotiations start it will be interesting to see what pressure Mercedes bmw vw group etc put on the German government as we are a big market for them.
kr79:
Carryfast:
OVLOV JAY:
And we will also be free to make free trade deals with India,China to name but a few of our regular trading partners, all of whom we trade under wto tariffs due to our EU shackles.
If you want to break free of race to the bottom free markets to create well paid Brit jobs for well paid Brit workers then replacing EU with India and China will be like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.IE free trade is the problem not the solution and more free trade will just make matters worse.
We will be able to buy the old crap they make even cheaper.
A friend of mine who’s family run one of the biggest tipper fleets in London have been approached to evaluate a Chinese built 8 wheel tipper. They currently run a mainly Scania fleet but had a lot of hinos and only left them due to the cost of spares and poor back up so not badge snobs.
He said his dad reconed the build quality was behind the worn out second hand scammels fodens he was buying in the 80s. When he got to talking about pricing he said although they was talking a fair bit less than Scania and Volvo prices it wasn’t that far behind daf Renault and Man. Add in unknown back up spares prices and reliability he reconed he would want to be paying a lot less to take a gamble on one.
So all in all I don’t think China is the answer.
Once brexit negotiations start it will be interesting to see what pressure Mercedes bmw vw group etc put on the German government as we are a big market for them.
Your first line sums up what I was trying to say. I don’t think people will be rushing out to buy cheap Chinese tippers, however cheap they become. I was getting more at the cheap food and clothing we rely on so much, becoming even cheaper. And to be fair to Theresa May, she’s already knocked visas off the negotiating table
OVLOV JAY:
Your first line sums up what I was trying to say. I don’t think people will be rushing out to buy cheap Chinese tippers, however cheap they become. I was getting more at the cheap food and clothing we rely on so much, becoming even cheaper. And to be fair to Theresa May, she’s already knocked visas off the negotiating table
I dont think weve even started talking to India & China yet, at least not officially, so surely there is no way Ms May will be queering the pitch about future talks? How can we expect to get a good a good trade deal with anyone if we offer nowt (visas) even before starting?
And even if she did say that, what worth is any politician`s promise gonna be 2 days from now, let alone 2 years?
Franglais:
OVLOV JAY:
Your first line sums up what I was trying to say. I don’t think people will be rushing out to buy cheap Chinese tippers, however cheap they become. I was getting more at the cheap food and clothing we rely on so much, becoming even cheaper. And to be fair to Theresa May, she’s already knocked visas off the negotiating tableI don
t think weve even started talking to India & China yet, at least not officially, so surely there is no way Ms May will be queering the pitch about future talks? How can we expect to get a good a good trade deal with anyone if we offer nowt (visas) even before starting?
And even if she did say that, what worth is any politician`s promise gonna be 2 days from now, let alone 2 years?
We are a massive market for them. That’s our bargaining chip. It’s their economy that will benefit from massive increases in trade. Why do people always see Britain as the shafted party. If we are going to be at such a disadvantage with the eu, because we sell to them, how can a trade agreement with India or China see us shafted too, if we are now the buying party? 
OVLOV JAY:
Franglais:
OVLOV JAY:
Your first line sums up what I was trying to say. I don’t think people will be rushing out to buy cheap Chinese tippers, however cheap they become. I was getting more at the cheap food and clothing we rely on so much, becoming even cheaper. And to be fair to Theresa May, she’s already knocked visas off the negotiating tableI don
t think weve even started talking to India & China yet, at least not officially, so surely there is no way Ms May will be queering the pitch about future talks? How can we expect to get a good a good trade deal with anyone if we offer nowt (visas) even before starting?
And even if she did say that, what worth is any politician`s promise gonna be 2 days from now, let alone 2 years?We are a massive market for them. That’s our bargaining chip. It’s their economy that will benefit from massive increases in trade. Why do people always see Britain as the shafted party. If we are going to be at such a disadvantage with the eu, because we sell to them, how can a trade agreement with India or China see us shafted too, if we are now the buying party?
For how much longer after Brexit would we be in a position to afford to buy owt from China India or the Eu? Our manufacturing base has been destroyed by decades of neglect and under investment. Thatcher talked about a “service economy”. Where is that now? The city makes large amounts of money, but the benefits are restricted to maybe half a million? workers, who might spin some of it off to their hair-dressers and cleaners. That is no way to run a country. And the City can up sticks at any time. It is only dependent on intellectual labour: those who work there can do the same job anywhere. Those who work there may well consider themselves world citizens with no allegiance to any one country, many will have been recruited from overseas so moving is no problem for them.
Is Britain being shafted? I think it has been by politicos who are more interested in big business than real workers. They sing out the same old story about “trickle down” of money and “rising water lifts all equally”, but look around! Is that what your eyes tell you? Are we all becoming better off? I can`t see that in my day to day life.
I totally agree that the whole country has been screwed by the political classes, but that has happened as members of the eu. And by that I don’t mean the eu has done it, I mean if it was the so called saviour that people believe it to be, we wouldn’t be in such a state. The whole idea that people will be wandering the streets, starving in no more than rags on their backs, is the very reason remain lost the campaign. Anyone with half a brain realises there is a need for such goods we use everyday, and someone will fill the gap, whether that be the eu under tariffs, other countries under new trade deals, or a return to U.K. manufacturing itself. One thing is for sure, we will survive. It’s not going to be armageddon after the eu
Carryfast:
Do you really think that the French plan isn’t that of taking out all its GM competition in Europe.Of which we are just a small satellite assembly operation and as such we have more to gain by getting into a trade war with Europe than we have to to lose.IE we lose Astra exports there through tarrifs we hit PSA and Renault and VAG and all the rest with quotas.While GM manufacturing ended here decades ago anyway with the last Vivas and Victors and Bedfords etc.Make no mistake the Polish and German plants have more to be worried about than us.While GM are just acting true to form in being a bunch of muppets just as previously having not only taken out its UK operations long ago but now also closing its Australian Holden operations.IE nothing to do with the EU but just GM acting true to form as usual in cutting off its nose to spite its face.Just as it did in the case of handing its heavy vehicle manufacturing operation over to Volvo and calling Daewoo’s Chevrolets.
On that note just like the Australian government it doesn’t make much difference to us either way unless our own government is prepared to act in the national interest.In this case in the form of kicking out the Europeans whether Opel or PSA etc and taking our own manufacturing base like Vauxhall and Leyland back from the US multinationals by compulsory purchase and if needed Nationalisation.Then applying the strict import barriers that we should have applied in 1973 instead of joining the EU.All of which I’m sure that the Trump administration would be more sympathetic to than seeing us get screwed by those with your plans in the EU for the crime of wanting to secede.
Para 1. So we put quotas on all PSA Renault etc cars into the UK? Well thatll put up our cost of living straight away. With retaliatory quotas against us Nissan wont be sticking around too long Id bet so unemployment rises. Para 2. The Polish economy has more potential for growth than ours, so plants there are more likely to be a future investment surely? A relatively cheap, but well educated workforce that has proved itself motivated enough to travel and seek work, with space on cheap land for expansion. G.M. is merely acting like the multi-national or maybe supra-national company it is. No thought given to any country or its population.
Para 3. “taking our own manufacturing base like Vauxhall and Leyland back from the US multinationals by compulsory purchase” They would currently worth how much? Not enough to build an economy on Id think. Where would the components or raw materials come from? In your scenario wed be in a trade war with almost everyone and would be paying top money to import steel etc.
We can maybe agree on the problem CF, but I cant agree youre offering a solution here.
EDIT: re Trump: Any sympathy from him will be as valuable as his promises.
OVLOV JAY:
I totally agree that the whole country has been screwed by the political classes, but that has happened as members of the eu. And by that I don’t mean the eu has done it, I mean if it was the so called saviour that people believe it to be, we wouldn’t be in such a state. The whole idea that people will be wandering the streets, starving in no more than rags on their backs, is the very reason remain lost the campaign. Anyone with half a brain realises there is a need for such goods we use everyday, and someone will fill the gap, whether that be the eu under tariffs, other countries under new trade deals, or a return to U.K. manufacturing itself. One thing is for sure, we will survive. It’s not going to be armageddon after the eu
I honestly think wed have a better future as members of the Eu instead of competing with it, and fighting with it for trade. Well, OK that aint gonna happen. I cant see UK manufacturing being revived in the next two years: governments wont/cant invest, and big business wont if they can`t see a pay-off on the bottom line.
kr79:
Once brexit negotiations start it will be interesting to see what pressure Mercedes bmw vw group etc put on the German government as we are a big market for them.
just looking at Scanias figures for 2015. 47,000 units sold, 7000 of which were to the UK - 15% of their sales within the Europe. They won’t be letting their government damage that sort of business with retaliatory tariffs. The UK is a massive economy.
Bluey Circles:
kr79:
Once brexit negotiations start it will be interesting to see what pressure Mercedes bmw vw group etc put on the German government as we are a big market for them.just looking at Scanias figures for 2015. 47,000 units sold, 7000 of which were to the UK - 15% of their sales within the Europe. They won’t be letting their government damage that sort of business with retaliatory tariffs. The UK is a massive economy.
I can see what you mean, but how much damage would it really do to them? All other heavy trucks would be taxed to the same level. Their market share would remain constant wouldnt it? Its not as if UK hauliers are going to buy Leyland T45s. The overall UK market might diminish as hauliers hold on to vehicles longer. What would be too great a price for the Eu to pay in order to keep the other members on board? A UK haulage industry paying more for its trucks, so increasing its costs, is gonna be good news and mean expansion for those buying cheaper kit, surely? Less Scanias sold in the UK, more sold in the Eu?
Lack of UK buyers for German etc cars is maybe more of issue for them, maybe.
Franglais:
Bluey Circles:
kr79:
Once brexit negotiations start it will be interesting to see what pressure Mercedes bmw vw group etc put on the German government as we are a big market for them.just looking at Scanias figures for 2015. 47,000 units sold, 7000 of which were to the UK - 15% of their sales within the Europe. They won’t be letting their government damage that sort of business with retaliatory tariffs. The UK is a massive economy.
I can see what you mean, but how much damage would it really do to them? All other heavy trucks would be taxed to the same level. Their market share would remain constant wouldn
t it? Its not as if UK hauliers are going to buy Leyland T45s. The overall UK market might diminish as hauliers hold on to vehicles longer. What would be too great a price for the Eu to pay in order to keep the other members on board? A UK haulage industry paying more for its trucks, so increasing its costs, is gonna be good news and mean expansion for those buying cheaper kit, surely? Less Scanias sold in the UK, more sold in the Eu?
Lack of UK buyers for German etc cars is maybe more of issue for them, maybe.
I don’t think any of these big players would be willing to tolerate even small percentage losses in the guise of political expediency. Guess they will have very persuasive lobbiests to stop restrictive tariffs to their markets.
With a full-on free trade deal with the USA we would have to open up our markets fully to theirs, and they would not tolerate daft EU type rules to hinder them, and they would be very interested in getting a foot in the door, American cars & trucks, not a pleasant thought but along with genetically modified food and growth hormone rich meat, in any ‘true’ free trade deal, Trump will insist on full access to our markets.