the nodding donkey:
But it’s all fine. Once we’re free from Europe, we can trade freely with the rest of the world.
Freely. . . . .plus 20%? under World Trade Organisation rules. . . .oh, Gawd, where is this thread going. . .
But that 20% will be easily offset by the volumes of raw materials that we will export to the rest of the world. And our factories won’t be able to keep up with the demand for our products from the rest of the world. Who needs a mere 500 million consumers in a backwater like Europe, when there are the affluent continents of Africa and South America to trade freely with?
the nodding donkey:
But it’s all fine. Once we’re free from Europe, we can trade freely with the rest of the world.
Freely. . . . .plus 20%? under World Trade Organisation rules. . . .oh, Gawd, where is this thread going. . .
But that 20% will be easily offset by the volumes of raw materials that we will export to the rest of the world. And our factories won’t be able to keep up with the demand for our products from the rest of the world. Who needs a mere 500 million consumers in a backwater like Europe, when there are the affluent continents of Africa and South America to trade freely with?
Of course, youre correct. Tis short sighted of me not see the benefits to our thriving coal and iron ore mining industries. Our ship-building will benefit from the need for more ships to transport said goods too. More work for trucks, Hooray !
I know it was fashionable in the day to knock Brit trucks in comparison to their more modern Euro counterparts, but I made lot of money once over using ERF.s, SedAtks with ■■■■■■■ engines and the like, good hard work horses that could take abuse, in comparison to today’s hi tech stuff in terms of toughness and durability it’s like comparing Stallone with Alan Carr.
I often wonder what a modern SedAtk would look like.
In the latter years they went for the DAF cabbed Strato, which say what you like was a bloody good truck.
Would they be DAF or Iveco based cabs today, or ERFss, they went down the MAN route, would they have gone back independent, and how would they measure up, who knows? (Who cares? )
Yeh, ok, I know…I should get out more.
Talking of JCB, it all started from tractors that used to fit a back digger to their tractors, and tractors using front diggers, so the founder decided to fit both the front and back digger kit to one machine .
The rest is history, thanks to Mr John Bamford.
the nodding donkey:
But it’s all fine. Once we’re free from Europe, we can trade freely with the rest of the world.
Freely. . . . .plus 20%? under World Trade Organisation rules. . . .oh, Gawd, where is this thread going. . .
Who does free trade, free movement of goods, labour, capital really benefit?
Is it the workers, who see cheap foreign labour coming putting downward pressure on their wages and conditions, or see’s their jobs lost and the operation moved to some other part of the World where there is labour costs are lower?
Is it the Worker who has to accept a reduction on their pay and conditions of employment or lose their job to a worker in another land across the World?
Is it the consumers who don’t know what goes into the goods they’re buying and instead of getting more choice really end up with less choice and global corporation merge?
Is it the Voters who find their elected representatives are powerless to bring the global corporations under control and find out these companies don’t pay the tax they should by taking the money offshore?
Or is it those at the top of the Global Corporations who can exploit the labour market, ignore the consumer and ride rough shod over elected Governments and the wishes of the voters, as they lobby for more favorable trading conditions at the threat of job loses and avoid paying for essential services in the countries they operate?
Karl Marx wrote "A study of the struggle waged by the British working class, reveals that in order to oppose their workers, the employers either bring in workers from abroad or else transfer manufacture to countries where there is a cheap labour force.”
Not a lot seems to have changed and I doubt things will get better if we continue to accept the Status Quo.
the nodding donkey:
But it’s all fine. Once we’re free from Europe, we can trade freely with the rest of the world.
Freely. . . . .plus 20%? under World Trade Organisation rules. . . .oh, Gawd, where is this thread going. . .
Who does free trade, free movement of goods, labour, capital really benefit?
Is it the workers, who see cheap foreign labour coming putting downward pressure on their wages and conditions, or see’s their jobs lost and the operation moved to some other part of the World where there is labour costs are lower?
Is it the Worker who has to accept a reduction on their pay and conditions of employment or lose their job to a worker in another land across the World?
Is it the consumers who don’t know what goes into the goods they’re buying and instead of getting more choice really end up with less choice and global corporation merge?
Is it the Voters who find their elected representatives are powerless to bring the global corporations under control and find out these companies don’t pay the tax they should by taking the money offshore?
Or is it those at the top of the Global Corporations who can exploit the labour market, ignore the consumer and ride rough shod over elected Governments and the wishes of the voters, as they lobby for more favorable trading conditions at the threat of job loses and avoid paying for essential services in the countries they operate?
Karl Marx wrote "A study of the struggle waged by the British working class, reveals that in order to oppose their workers, the employers either bring in workers from abroad or else transfer manufacture to countries where there is a cheap labour force.”
Not a lot seems to have changed and I doubt things will get better if we continue to accept the Status Quo.
Answers on a postcard please?
Some answers may be in here: " Bad Samaritans: The Myth of Free Trade and the Secret History of Capitalism ", and “23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism” by Ha-Joon Chang. The titles sound like its heavy going but it is not that difficult to read. Keeps you awake while youre queuing for a boat or whatever.
the nodding donkey:
But it’s all fine. Once we’re free from Europe, we can trade freely with the rest of the world.
Freely. . . . .plus 20%? under World Trade Organisation rules. . . .oh, Gawd, where is this thread going. . .
Who does free trade, free movement of goods, labour, capital really benefit?
Is it the workers, who see cheap foreign labour coming putting downward pressure on their wages and conditions, or see’s their jobs lost and the operation moved to some other part of the World where there is labour costs are lower?
Is it the Worker who has to accept a reduction on their pay and conditions of employment or lose their job to a worker in another land across the World?
Is it the consumers who don’t know what goes into the goods they’re buying and instead of getting more choice really end up with less choice and global corporation merge?
Is it the Voters who find their elected representatives are powerless to bring the global corporations under control and find out these companies don’t pay the tax they should by taking the money offshore?
Or is it those at the top of the Global Corporations who can exploit the labour market, ignore the consumer and ride rough shod over elected Governments and the wishes of the voters, as they lobby for more favorable trading conditions at the threat of job loses and avoid paying for essential services in the countries they operate?
Karl Marx wrote "A study of the struggle waged by the British working class, reveals that in order to oppose their workers, the employers either bring in workers from abroad or else transfer manufacture to countries where there is a cheap labour force.”
Not a lot seems to have changed and I doubt things will get better if we continue to accept the Status Quo.
Spot on post by muckles there. And for the record, wto tariffs are 2-3% not 20%. That’s less than traders allow for currency fluctuations. And we will also be free to make free trade deals with the US, India, China and Brazil to name but a few of our regular trading partners, all of whom we trade under wto tariffs due to our EU shackles.
But I digress, I wouldn’t want a British built truck. I’ve got a new generation R series on demo, and it’s like driving a VW Golf on steroids. Nothing British made will ever come close. The world has changed since the demise of the Foden dynasty. They were miles behind their rivals, and said rivals are miles ahead of where they were back then
OVLOV JAY:
And we will also be free to make free trade deals with India,China to name but a few of our regular trading partners, all of whom we trade under wto tariffs due to our EU shackles.
If you want to break free of race to the bottom free markets to create well paid Brit jobs for well paid Brit workers then replacing EU with India and China will be like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.IE free trade is the problem not the solution and more free trade will just make matters worse.
the nodding donkey:
But it’s all fine. Once we’re free from Europe, we can trade freely with the rest of the world.
Freely. . . . .plus 20%? under World Trade Organisation rules. . . .oh, Gawd, where is this thread going. . .
Who does free trade, free movement of goods, labour, capital really benefit?
Is it the workers, who see cheap foreign labour coming putting downward pressure on their wages and conditions, or see’s their jobs lost and the operation moved to some other part of the World where there is labour costs are lower?
Is it the Worker who has to accept a reduction on their pay and conditions of employment or lose their job to a worker in another land across the World?
Is it the consumers who don’t know what goes into the goods they’re buying and instead of getting more choice really end up with less choice and global corporation merge?
Is it the Voters who find their elected representatives are powerless to bring the global corporations under control and find out these companies don’t pay the tax they should by taking the money offshore?
Or is it those at the top of the Global Corporations who can exploit the labour market, ignore the consumer and ride rough shod over elected Governments and the wishes of the voters, as they lobby for more favorable trading conditions at the threat of job loses and avoid paying for essential services in the countries they operate?
Karl Marx wrote "A study of the struggle waged by the British working class, reveals that in order to oppose their workers, the employers either bring in workers from abroad or else transfer manufacture to countries where there is a cheap labour force.”
Not a lot seems to have changed and I doubt things will get better if we continue to accept the Status Quo.
Spot on post by muckles there. And for the record, wto tariffs are 2-3% not 20%. That’s less than traders allow for currency fluctuations. And we will also be free to make free trade deals with the US, India, China and Brazil to name but a few of our regular trading partners, all of whom we trade under wto tariffs due to our EU shackles.
But I digress, I wouldn’t want a British built truck. I’ve got a new generation R series on demo, and it’s like driving a VW Golf on steroids. Nothing British made will ever come close. The world has changed since the demise of the Foden dynasty. They were miles behind their rivals, and said rivals are miles ahead of where they were back then
I was the one guilty of “magicing” 20% WTO tariff figure out of the air. Sorry, I was wrong. fullfact.org/europe/uk-leaving-eu-trade/
“In 2013, the EU’s trade weighted average MFN tariff was 2.3% for non-agricultural products. This is an average figure and tariffs on some individual products are much higher, especially on agricultural goods. The EU tariff on cars, for example, is 10%.”
So an AVERAGE of 2.3% yes, with some tariffs being zero, so like today, and some being higher, notably cars at 10%.
OVLOV JAY:
And we will also be free to make free trade deals with India,China to name but a few of our regular trading partners, all of whom we trade under wto tariffs due to our EU shackles.
If you want to break free of race to the bottom free markets to create well paid Brit jobs for well paid Brit workers then replacing EU with India and China will be like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.IE free trade is the problem not the solution and more free trade will just make matters worse.
These countries are already some of our biggest trading partners, albeit subjected to tariffs currently. A free trade deal means just that, free trade. Nobody is implying it has to include free movement, or that British jobs could somehow be outsourced to those countries
OVLOV JAY:
And we will also be free to make free trade deals with India,China to name but a few of our regular trading partners, all of whom we trade under wto tariffs due to our EU shackles.
If you want to break free of race to the bottom free markets to create well paid Brit jobs for well paid Brit workers then replacing EU with India and China will be like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.IE free trade is the problem not the solution and more free trade will just make matters worse.
These countries are already some of our biggest trading partners, albeit subjected to tariffs currently. A free trade deal means just that, free trade. Nobody is implying it has to include free movement, or that British jobs could somehow be outsourced to those countries
Free trade means that those countries (India China) goods which we already buy will be cheaper still if not taxed. This must surely mean goods will become souced even more from there, so, fewer UK jobs.
It depends what the goods are. If it’s a replacement for eu imports, it’ll be eu jobs that go. If it replaces uk goods, then yes, it would be uk jobs lost. But with current low tariffs under wto regs, combined with the fractional wage costs in those places, those jobs would’ve already gone if it was viable
Franglais:
Free trade means that those countries (India China) goods which we already buy will be cheaper still if not taxed. This must surely mean goods will become souced even more from there, so, fewer UK jobs.
^ This.
Having said that we obviously can’t sort out the argument between free trade v protectionism as an EU member either.We need to have full control over our own economy to do that including telling the WTO to do one.
Which hopefully is where both us and France together with the US are eventually heading.Although the Brits obviously don’t find the idea of protectionism as easy to get their heads around.But the choice seems clear enough in that free markets don’t/can’t work.
OVLOV JAY:
It depends what the goods are. If it’s a replacement for eu imports, it’ll be eu jobs that go. If it replaces uk goods, then yes, it would be uk jobs lost. But with current low tariffs under wto regs, combined with the fractional wage costs in those places, those jobs would’ve already gone if it was viable
Let’s just say that weakening and destabilising Europe to make China even stronger would probably backire catastrophically.As opposed to what we’re actually trying to do regards getting our own economy and country back under our own control for our own benefit. On that note we don’t want weaker/freer tariffs v China we need stronger ones.
those sad fodens I had an 8x4 tipper RR265 fast pull like train comfy payload 20.40 tonnes on a gross 30.49 come a long way havent we ,some of the modern stuff 19.20 tonnes at a gross of 32.00 tonnes I do know what I would risk going across a desert in an old truck rather than the new Foreign .Our governments over the years were to blame poke noses in and give no real support ie.the TSR2, THE BAC LIGHTNING, SCAMMELL ROUTEMAN, AEC .they also gave COBBHAM IN FLIGHT AIRCRAFT REFUEL SYSTEM NO SUPPORT the the Americans bought and left COBBHAM TO IT TO MAKE IT INTO THE WORLD BEATER IT IS TODAY, THEN THERE IS THE STEAM CATS ON AIR CRAFT CARRIERS no help apart from the americans ho then there was mirror landing aid and yes the americans bought it and helped to make it what it is today and the angle flight deck,CONCORDE WITHE THE HELP OF FRANCE NOTHING WRONG WITH BRITISH DESIGNERS AND WORKERS THAT THE GOVERNMENT CAN NOT …UP
Fuse, you forgot Rover and LDV. Oh yes, they both built ancient ■■■■ and charged a lot for their ■■■■. Only tight fisted businesses and old bar stards bought aforementioned ■■■■.
British Leyland has a proud history of producing turds in glitter, too. All proudly displayed at Gaydon Museum…
Morris Marina, Morris Ital, Austin Allegro, Austin Princess, MGB (was a classic and was a classic joke by the time they were axed), Triumph Stag, Triumph Acclaim, Austin Maestro, even the original Mini was an ancient overpriced relic by the late '90s. The proud motor heritage list goes on and on (unlike the cars).
We could also add the heavy turds to this toilet of Great British engineering like Seddon Atkinson (which were so crap they had Iveco cabs with big "As glued on at the end). Daf went bust mid '90s by modifying leftover Leyland crap, Fodens built cabs with draughts supplied at no extra cost, Gardner engines produced more smoke than horsepower and ended up in narrowboats.
I agree more ale that was a bad episode , mind you our friends in the father land are way out over priced and behind on the construction of the new Berlin airport couple of billion over budget and 5 years behind ,you will not hear much about that on the BBC
)
On that note we don’t want weaker/freer tariffs v China we need stronger ones.