Bernard- finest lorry in France?

[zb]
anorak:

gingerfold:
Yes all that individuality that made travelling such a mind-broadening experience has sadly disappeared through globalisation (how I hate that word and all it means) and standardisation.

A quarter of a century ago, a nation’s culture, its own way of doing the mundane things, was worn with pride on everyday objects such as vehicles. I barely noticed the lorries on my recent 10 (approx.-haven’t added it up) week tour of Europe. The g word has made things a bit boring. All the more reason to bring better times into sharper focus:
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This lament brings me to the common ground I noticed between Bernard and Gardner- the most innovative machinery tending to be produced by the companies run by the most autocratic engineers.

:confused:

In this case though it’s just a direct comparison of which was the better wagon.Berliet GR series or that example.Gardner was only innovative a generation before and in the context of the less demanding terrain of Britain compared to France.Hauling a drawbar outfit around France during the mid 1960’s/early 1970’s was a very different thing than Gardner’s home turf in it’s day a generation before.While even here there were arguably probably better choices than Gardner powered trucks.

It seems obvious to me,from what I saw,during the early 1970’s at least,that anything using Gardners outdated technology,which was based on a totally alien market place both geographically and in time,would have just magnified the same issues which (eventually) applied here when the domestic market caught up with what the euro customers and manufacturers were calling for in their respective markets.

From a French driver’s point of view at least I’d have probably preferred the Berliet GR series thanks given the choice. :bulb:

For once I agree with CF- the French (Berliet, Bernard, Somua et al) had, by the 1960s (the GR you posted was launched in 1959), taken a step ahead of GB. My earlier point about the “commercial” side of lorry/engine manufacturers failing to do their job properly- applied to Gardner and Bernard (amongst others) in the 1940s and '50s. The successful firms, it seems, had started to lay the foundations for Europe-wide sales during that period, and so reaped the benefits from the 1960s onward. The increased sales volumes they enjoyed, as a result, gave them increased R&D funding to move their products further ahead. It may be an oversimplification, but that “model” seems typical of all the companies who went on to prosper in the 1970s. This is not intended to insult the great engineering efforts of Bernard and Gardner in the early post-war years. It is, of course, hypothesis.

Evening all, well we are venturing into the realms of conjecture, who, what, why? Let us consider some actual facts.

Any French operator of the 50s and 60s, would, despite partisan feelings state that the premier vehicle available to him was without doubt, a Bernard! Reliability, utter quality, economy, driver acceptance, (“the driver of a Bernard, he is a man to be respected”, to translate a common used phrase)! There simply was no contest.

Many times, at more sociable events, just scratching the “skin” of French operators, (large and small), would come the comment, “ah, but only if Bernard was available today”)! The man, his creations were/are a national institution! And don`t forget the drivers, to have a Bernard really meant something, it was a badge of office, you were a professional amongst your piers! And to be a “knitter”, well, you were top of the tree, “sans doubt”!!!

[ZB], CF, you cannot compare the French and UK markets in the pre “harmonisation” days, they are truly apples and pears! One can appreciate the difference, but they are totally different. As a result the products were different, Legislation has much to answer for, created to National peramiters, but totally ignoring what your neighbour is doing.

As an example. Let us take the late 60s as a time frame. 4x2 rigid, 16tons in the UK, on average, aim for a body and payload factor of 11tons. M le Frog, 19tonnes gvw, chassis cab 6.5tonnes, body,average 2.5tonnes, payload , 10tonnes, (pas problem… every one loads 13tonnes, who cares)!!!

France had been running 19tonnes, 4x2s for years, and whosoever built them, the build was substantial, as was the 26tonne 6x2(4). and 35tonne 3axle artic, and 38tonne 4axle. That was the reason for Bernard to “crusade” the concept of a light 8x4 rigid at 32tonnes. This crusade cost many millions of Francs that they could ill afford, but was typical of an engineering concept driven company, aiming to create a market , not exploit an existing one.

The GR Berliet, with the comfortable "Relax " cab, an excellent product, with one inheritent weakness,…the “Majic” 6cyl, (early), Maxi Couple type engine! Piston problems, high fuel consumption, because like the later ■■■■■■■ E290, the penalty of over exuberence on the throttle, was a massive thirst!! (and that early engine could rev)! But a lovely, lovely lorry. Only by the mid 70s, had the engineers from Venissieux adapted the design, and created the easy to use Maxi-Couple designs. At that time the most fuel efficient, easy driving engines available in Europe.

Now we come to Mr Mack, post WW11,very succesful in Europe, Importers, assemblers in the Benelux, but huge potential market in Europe. Something I found when working along side our American friends, is their total misunderstanding of “culture” No not the “Arty, ■■■■■”, but that of individual Nation States. They, (and I talk of Chrysler, and Mack), saw Europe as one market, that would accept the “universal” product, across National boundaries! Not so Chuck Pigotts PACAR, who building on their succesful US strategy, saw each European, (pre harmonisation),market as individual.

Macks acquisition of Bernard in 63, was marked by a total lack of grasp of what Bernard was, and what it meant as a “brand”. Mack engines in Bernard chassis, although possesing “chevalvapeur”, (power), were viewed with some distrust by operators who had seen the dimutation of Bernards engineering expertise with the Alsthom powered 200serie. And these "hybrids " they were not cheap!

That the Mack Bernards were a good vehicle is undeniable, but the sales imputus was further diluted by the introduction, via the Dealer Network, of French built Macks, sporting cabs by Pelpel, (quite handsome), and later by our own Motor panels, without doubt the ugliest, oh by a long way , tractor unit ever to grace Europes roads!! And with one fell swoop, by kicking Floor in their corporate nuts, lost ground in the Benelux!!

The cost base of Bernards substantial factory at Avenue Briande, could not be supported by the sales of Mack-Bernards, and French built Macks, so the Yanks did what they are good at, (in corporate terms), they cut and ran! 1966 was the end of Bernard!

Gentlemen, if ever you are lucky enough to see a preserved Bernard, please examine it closely, and you will find a truly exqusite piece of engineering, and if it has a cab by Pelpel, Arnault, Cottard, or sheer delight, Charbonnaux, enjoy the thought of driving such a machine…“the driver of a Bernard, he is a man to be respected”! and truly he was. Cheerio for now.

Saviem:
Evening all, well we are venturing into the realms of conjecture, who, what, why? Let us consider some actual facts.

Any French operator of the 50s and 60s, would, despite partisan feelings state that the premier vehicle available to him was without doubt, a Bernard! Reliability, utter quality, economy, driver acceptance, (“the driver of a Bernard, he is a man to be respected”, to translate a common used phrase)! There simply was no contest.

Many times, at more sociable events, just scratching the “skin” of French operators, (large and small), would come the comment, “ah, but only if Bernard was available today”)! The man, his creations were/are a national institution! And don`t forget the drivers, to have a Bernard really meant something, it was a badge of office, you were a professional amongst your piers! And to be a “knitter”, well, you were top of the tree, “sans doubt”!!!

[ZB], CF, you cannot compare the French and UK markets in the pre “harmonisation” days, they are truly apples and pears! One can appreciate the difference, but they are totally different. As a result the products were different, Legislation has much to answer for, created to National peramiters, but totally ignoring what your neighbour is doing.

As an example. Let us take the late 60s as a time frame. 4x2 rigid, 16tons in the UK, on average, aim for a body and payload factor of 11tons. M le Frog, 19tonnes gvw, chassis cab 6.5tonnes, body,average 2.5tonnes, payload , 10tonnes, (pas problem… every one loads 13tonnes, who cares)!!!

France had been running 19tonnes, 4x2s for years, and whosoever built them, the build was substantial, as was the 26tonne 6x2(4). and 35tonne 3axle artic, and 38tonne 4axle. That was the reason for Bernard to “crusade” the concept of a light 8x4 rigid at 32tonnes. This crusade cost many millions of Francs that they could ill afford, but was typical of an engineering concept driven company, aiming to create a market , not exploit an existing one.

The GR Berliet, with the comfortable "Relax " cab, an excellent product, with one inheritent weakness,…the “Majic” 6cyl, (early), Maxi Couple type engine! Piston problems, high fuel consumption, because like the later ■■■■■■■ E290, the penalty of over exuberence on the throttle, was a massive thirst!! (and that early engine could rev)! But a lovely, lovely lorry. Only by the mid 70s, had the engineers from Venissieux adapted the design, and created the easy to use Maxi-Couple designs. At that time the most fuel efficient, easy driving engines available in Europe.

I was only going by what I saw as that 12 year old in 1970 in which it was those GR series Berliets which impressed the most while running through France.Even at that time I think one of the main differences (which I’ve always agreed with),as in most continental markets,was that four wheeler rigids were viewed more as drawbar prime movers than just rigids in their own right and as you say it was probably a case of everyone loads a few tonnes more so who cared anyway.With the added bonus that the things were great in the mountainous and hilly areas when bought/used just as rigids too. :bulb:

As in many other cases,where I’ve made the case for the advantage of drawbar outfits,surely a reasonably powered (for the time and the place) four axle drawbar outfit,with the added advantage of being an even more (relatively) highly powered four wheeler rigid when running without a trailer,would have been a far more practical idea than a 32 tonner eight wheeler rigid with the disadvantage of having a relatively underpowered Gardner based power unit to pull it :question: . :bulb:

All of which seems to me to have been the type of thinking which applied throughout most parts of Europe except Italy where higher permitted weights made the 8 wheeler rigid,used as part of a drawbar outfit idea,more economically worthwhile.

While as we’ve seen over here we just went fo the worst of all worlds option of US type reliance on the artic idea with even less than the already inefficient US type permitted weight limits,mostly still reliant on Gardner power units. :open_mouth:

All of which seems to me to show that Bernard was just wasting time and money on an idea which seemed to go against all the (correct) type of thinking in it’s home ( and the general European ) market/s of the time with the added flaw of not trying to get ahead in the horse power race because of the use of outdated British engine technology. :bulb:

I certainly can’t see any reason why the driver of a Berliet GR series drawbar outfit wouldn’t/shouldn’t have had reason to be considered as a driver to be respected at least as much,if not more,as/than the driver of a Bernard. :confused:

Please forgive my foray into the realms of conjecture. I fancy that the questions, “Why?” and “What if?” were coursing through the minds of our heroes, when they created their masterpieces of design. One instinctively asks the same questions, when history shows their efforts going down the pan. Here’s a spec. sheet I purloined from what they have already stopped calling “cyberspace:”

A very worthwhile subject for a thread in my opinion. As has been said, a lorry from a long lost era when every major European nation had their own trucking identity and heritage…

Just had a look through my archive, and I thought I would post up some images to illustrate some of the excellent commentary on these vehicles by Saviem and others…

Here is the unusual axle-through-chassis arrangement as used on the 6 wheeler 6R/A 150/180 models.

This is the ill fated Air Cooled V8 engine

This is a rearmost page from a “Mack et Bernard” range brochure which shows both companies models being sold in their pre - takeover guises. Note the Charbonneaux cabbed lorry really is a “televison truck” in this instance!

Here’s another forward control Bernard with a different pattern cab

And this is the Floor’s FTF which featured their “home made” version of the Mack F700 cab, from the period following the Dutch concern’s estrangement from Mack, but before they adopted the Motor Panels Mark IV cab in 1969

Evening all, Richard, excellent illustrations thank you.

The “different cab”, on the 19 &26tonne brochure was actually Charbonneauxs first design for Bernard, and chassis had the option of one, or all axles air suspended. Common now, but in 1959■■? An illustration of Bernards engineering prowess. If you compare Bernards "Television cab", with Charbonneauxs earlier Berliet Stadair, you can see how the design ethos developed.

Drouin Freres, of Nantes, operated over 200 Bernards, including many of the later Mack engined variants, from all of their locations. A most fascinating company, who also operated a substantial number of public service vehicles. As a company they rivaled Soc. Tpts Prost, but eventually disapeared from the roads. In the mid 70s they had Bernard “Television” tractors pensioned off as “shunters”, (though as all their equipment, well maintained). It was a short “go”, (much to the amusement of Georges Drouin), in one of these that confirmed my affection for the later Bernard product!

One can understand the reticence of French hauliers towards the Bernard-Macks, just from a style point of view, if you compare the Mack powered 211, as depicted on Richards brochure, to the “pure” Bernard, shown on the dual range brochure, with the Pelpel cab. Truly a tractor, Grand Routier!! Well, its raining again, so its a relaxing glass, (or two), of the Bollinger, and happy thoughts of the true Grand Routiers. Cheerio for now.

A preserved Bernard from the 60 th.

A Bernard ‘Levrier’ (which means Greyhound) , it had a Alsthom air - engine of 200 hp.

michel:
A preserved Bernard from the 60 th.

Evening all, michel, what can I say?..a truly superb photograph, of a truly superb lorry!!

Even now, tired, after a long day trying to free our potatoes from the lands muddy grip,(sadly without great success, but enough to satisfy our contract)! I could climb into that beautifully restored Bernard, couple up, and be away!

Gentlemen, is she not one of the most beautiful lorries you have ever seen? Before my shower, I shall to the office refrigerator, and uncork a new Bollinger, and toast that most beautiful piece of French engineering! michel, this old man is happy! Bon nuit mes braves, Cheerio for now.

I sincerely hope you have lifted enough “tatties” to satisfy our shopping requirements on Friday “Saviem”,I do believe I saw crisps on the “list”,but by the sound of it I won’t hold my breath ! Cheers Dennis.

Hello Dennis, I do`nt know about Morecambe, but in sunny Shropshire it has just started to pour down again! So I do not anticipate great success tommorow…but we will try. If you can get crisps…stockpile em!! Spuds is not going to be available…and with the wheat, well Pasta is going to get dear…Im driven to drink, Cheerio for now.

A 6x2 restored by an haulage contractor from north of France.

Just restored Bernard cabover with ‘television’ cab.

They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder,but I do find the Bernard range rather ugly.

Beware incoming!!!

David :astonished: