Another cyclist killed

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

rob22888:

Hammy747:
It shouldn’t take someone being killed to prove a point, but I think if this truck has all the new safety gear on it then it has to be proof to boris that more needs to be done to cyclists rather than punishing lorry drivers.

Thing is, you could legislate for trucks to now be fitted with a hundred different mirrors & cameras, if the driver doesn’t look at them for whatever reason they are neither use nor ornament. You are never going to be able to eliminate the bad driver & driver error.

Simply, the TfL were irresponsible promoting all this cycling on roads that aren’t fit. If they want thousands of amateur cyclists knocking about on busy highways they have to provide an infrastructure that keeps them safe; ie. proper Dutch-style segregated lanes. This is the inconvenient truth they don’t seem to want to accept.

The number of deaths is desperately inevitable & i’m surprised there aren’t even more. I’m all for getting more cyclists on the roads to cut traffic, but not this current system whereby lorry drivers are essentially expected to drive their rig through a children’s playground & there never be any incidents.

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22

mrginge:

rob22888:
this current system whereby lorry drivers are essentially expected to drive their rig through a children’s playground & there never be any incidents.

Great description. Spent 18mths in the centre of London 5 days a week and that’s spot on.

There would not be so many incidents if both drivers and cyclists took more care and showed some respect towards each other.
Far too much aggression on the roads these days.

23

hitch:
its about time COI or TfL ran ads like this
don’t go the nearside of a truck it will kill you

Undertaking is not what’s killing cyclists, usually. Usually it is the driver’s fault.

Cycle lanes are often slapped around with no thought about safety, they are almost always painted on the nearside.

A full quarter of cycling fatalities involve being hit from behind, the cyclist did NOTHING WRONG.

Have you seen the driving record of the HGV driver who killed Alan Neve?

'In December 1997, Barry Meyer was convicted of drink-driving for which he was disqualified for 18 months.

'In July 1998, he was convicted of driving while disqualified, which he had committed in June, just six months after his disqualification.

'In December 2004, he was convicted of driving a lorry with a skip which carrying a dangerous load, in other words was overloaded; displaying a tax disc which did not match the registration of the vehicle; driving without the appropriate operator’s license for the vehicle.

'In May 2007, he was again convicted of driving with excess alcohol and disqualified for 36 months which would be reduced to 27 months if he undertook a driving course.

'In July 2007, he was convicted of driving a van whilst disqualified and give a further 12 month disqualification.

‘In September 2008, he was stopped, driving whiles disqualified, a 7.5 tonne lorry. He gave the police a false name because he knew he was both driving whilst disqualified and driving with no insurance; he was disqualified for a further period of 14 months.’

In addition, he has previous convictions for assault, criminal damage and drug possession.

Who employed this driver? What checks were made? Who verified his credentials?

This is similar to Dennis Putz, also a multiple-banned driver who got a job driving HGVs and killed a cyclist doing nothing wrong. Putz was drunk and chatting on a mobile at the time. How come any lowlife criminal can get a job driving lorries in London?

24

RIP rider.

That’s a horrible junction to ride over if you’re following the river, just enough of a rise to make sure you can’t accelerate and cross it swiftly. The left lane, where the tent is, is just wide enough that you have to ride right on the centerline to stop drivers squeezing past but not wide enough to ride on the left and let them past.

If everyone just chilled out a bit and decided to drive/ride/walk politely and to the rules, it would make such a difference. Instead you’ve got cyclists doing the Tour de Commute, car drivers doing the Traffic Light Grand Prix, and then truck and bus drivers rushing around trying to meet schedules that are tight to begin with and crazy tight when you throw London traffic into the mix.

25

Carryfast:

GasGas:
standard.co.uk/news/london/l … n=ticker-2

who let that clown out on the road?

A habitual criminal who happened to be driving a truck without being licenced.Which doesn’t exactly fit the description of ‘lorry driver’.

Meanwhile the law are so preoccupied with the speed issue that they aren’t bothering to sort out an obvious situation of anarchy on the roads.Which going by many cases of ridiculously low driving standards regardless of vehicle type,suggests an epidemic of inlicenced or fraudulently licenced drivers on the road.

The question then being why did the media choose to link the story with the latest incident.

I don’t disagree with that, but the question remains…and the operator who engaged the guy bears responsibility for letting an unqualified driver out on the road in his vehicle.
Also the driver didn’t know where he was going and was preoccupied with following his colleague in front. That’s not wise in London where vehicles are bound to become separated and the lead vehicle can’t pull over to wait for his mate.

26

Swampey2418:
Hammy747 - Disagree with that statement about a large portion of cyclists play by the rules, but a small percentage that don’t take some harrowing risks…where’s your evidence to back up this up… from the 4 years lived in London cyclists where just a pain in the arse who used the roads like they owned them, I’m not surprised there are not more killed, the they way quite a lot ride in the inner London

Crashes involving bikes mostly driver’s fault. More than two thirds of all crashes between drivers and cyclists in Central London are the fault of the motorist, research indicates.

thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cy … 758677.ece

Risky cycling rarely to blame for bike accidents, study finds
Cyclists disobeying stop signal or wearing dark clothing at night rarely cited in collisions causing serious injury

theguardian.com/lifeandstyle … ents-study

The graph above shows that in the majority of all incidents where cyclists were killed, the driver was held to be solely to blame.

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Catriona Patel was drunk and chatting on a mobile.

The lorry driver who killed Eilidh Cairns had faulty eyesight (the police didn’t even bother to discover this until the same driver killed another woman.)

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Brian Dorling turned across his path.

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Svetlana Tereschenko was in an unsafe lorry, failing to indicate and chatting on a mobile. The police decided to charge him with…nothing.

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Deep Lee failed to notice her and smashed into her from behind.

The lorry driver that killed cyclist Andrew McNicoll failed to notice him and side swiped him.

The lorry driver that killed cyclist Daniel Cox was in a truck which did not have the correct mirrors and whose driver had pulled into the ASL on a red light and was indicating in the opposite direction to which he turned.

27

How many cyclist’s lives are saved, by the prompt evasive action of other road users, when they are taking unnecessary risks?

28

Fincham:
How many cyclist’s lives are saved, by the prompt evasive action of other road users, when they are taking unnecessary risks?

Eleventy twelve. Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

Cyclists don’t have airbags. They don’t have bumpers. Nor roll bars, seatbelts, a steel cage or crumple zone so a natural aversion to ANY type of collision is built in. Look around you at street furniture, dented, dinged, smashed bollards, crumpled railings. The “Risk Aversion” theory is behind the anomaly that RTCs increased after seatbelt legislation. The safer the driver feels the more risks they take, that may explain why 4X4 drivers are more likely to break road traffic law. Cyclists didn’t cause that damage, drivers did because they know the worst they can expect is a dented wing or scratched bumper.

There’s also the matter of perception. Look above at the claim that “Cyclists ride as if they own the road”. What this usually means is that the rider’s taking Primary Position as taught by Bikeability that has replaced the old Cycling Proficiency. So, cyclists trying to stay alive are called arrogant.

Cyclists taking risks is NOT what is causing these tragedies, it’s insulting to the victims to repeat that falsehood.

29

nick2008:
so how many cyclist killed
how many car drivers killed
how many bus drivers killed
how many truck drivers killed

it aint difficult to work out who’s needing the protection …

ban the bike

+1.
I agree. If you ban cycling from the streets of London, then many cyclists will be saved.

30

roaduser66:

Fincham:
How many cyclist’s lives are saved, by the prompt evasive action of other road users, when they are taking unnecessary risks?

Eleventy twelve. Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

Your answer tells me that you are probably a cyclist, I assume then that cyclist’s NEVER make wrong decisions.

31

Fincham:

roaduser66:

Fincham:
How many cyclist’s lives are saved, by the prompt evasive action of other road users, when they are taking unnecessary risks?

Eleventy twelve. Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

Your answer tells me that you are probably a cyclist, I assume then that cyclist’s NEVER make wrong decisions.

And here we have part of the problem. Nobody wants to take the blame. Fact is both are at fault most of the time and if they both took more care there would be less accidents.

32

Clunk:

nick2008:
so how many cyclist killed
how many car drivers killed
how many bus drivers killed
how many truck drivers killed

it aint difficult to work out who’s needing the protection …

ban the bike

+1.
I agree. If you ban cycling from the streets of London, then many cyclists will be saved.

That’s a great idea, maybe if they banned drinking alchohol you wouldn’t wake up with a bad head, or ban pedestrians, then they couldn’t get killed either, or ban people from driving with no licence or insurance or vehicle tax, oh hang on!
It clearly states in the article that an eyewitness saw the vehicle swerve left into the cyclist so why not ban tippers?

33

albion1971:

Fincham:

roaduser66:

Fincham:
How many cyclist’s lives are saved, by the prompt evasive action of other road users, when they are taking unnecessary risks?

Eleventy twelve. Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

Your answer tells me that you are probably a cyclist, I assume then that cyclist’s NEVER make wrong decisions.

And here we have part of the problem. Nobody wants to take the blame. Fact is both are at fault most of the time and if they both took more care there would be less accidents.

Driving standards are poor and getting progressively worse. Until they improve and ALL road users have more respect for each other then the situation will continue it’s downward spiral.

One other point, London is not alone in it’s problems, it is the norm in many places.

34

It is about time a cycling manifesto was written by our trade associations outlining how all road users should interact with a goods vehicle.

There should be a mandatory exclusion zone around a goods vehicle of at least a metre for all cyclists. Making it an offence to squeeze in between vehicles.

Cyclists and other vehicles should not only be at risk of prosecution for tailgating, but also for cutting in.

Any cyclist in the roadway when a cycleway is available should be open to prosecution too.

The current situation cannot continue. I cycle myself, but rarely on a busy road. The posturing righteous behaviour by some cyclists makes me want to puke. Should our economy and livelihoods be dictated by some middle-aged lycra wearing twots?

35

The solution is very simple, just ban trucks over the weight of 7.5 from entering london during the hours of 5am till 8pm, any deliveries wanted outwith that hours will have to be made in in vans or 7.5 tonners.

36

scotstrucker:
The solution is very simple, just ban trucks over the weight of 7.5 from entering london during the hours of 5am till 8pm, any deliveries wanted outwith that hours will have to be made in in vans or 7.5 tonners.

You mean alongside the fact they’re banned from 9pm to 7am in most of London anyway?
People need to get real. Large cities need trucks, a fleet of vans will not be sensibly able to replace the capacity a truck has.
There needs to be a complete overhaul in the attitude of both cyclists and drivers when it comes to sharing the roads in such close quarters.
All the safety equipment and segregated cycle lanes will not stop people from acting foolishly. All it needs is for 2 of these fools to come together and you get a situation where by someone get seriously or fatally hurt.
The current trend of YouTube cyclist who go around pointing out every slight misdemeanour does nothing but provoke many drivers and causes ill feeling towards each other. There’s even clips of a cyclist sticking a go pro camera on a selfie stick through someone’s window to see what they’re doing on a phone.
Do I have the answer? No, if I did I’d be Boris’ best buddie but I do think there needs to be more done to educate cyclists of the road space large vehicles need instead of going for the easier to regulate registered vehicle.

37

roaduser66:

hitch:
its about time COI or TfL ran ads like this
don’t go the nearside of a truck it will kill you

Undertaking is not what’s killing cyclists, usually. Usually it is the driver’s fault.

Cycle lanes are often slapped around with no thought about safety, they are almost always painted on the nearside.

A full quarter of cycling fatalities involve being hit from behind, the cyclist did NOTHING WRONG.

Have you seen the driving record of the HGV driver who killed Alan Neve?

'In December 1997, Barry Meyer was convicted of drink-driving for which he was disqualified for 18 months.

'In July 1998, he was convicted of driving while disqualified, which he had committed in June, just six months after his disqualification.

'In December 2004, he was convicted of driving a lorry with a skip which carrying a dangerous load, in other words was overloaded; displaying a tax disc which did not match the registration of the vehicle; driving without the appropriate operator’s license for the vehicle.

'In May 2007, he was again convicted of driving with excess alcohol and disqualified for 36 months which would be reduced to 27 months if he undertook a driving course.

'In July 2007, he was convicted of driving a van whilst disqualified and give a further 12 month disqualification.

‘In September 2008, he was stopped, driving whiles disqualified, a 7.5 tonne lorry. He gave the police a false name because he knew he was both driving whilst disqualified and driving with no insurance; he was disqualified for a further period of 14 months.’

In addition, he has previous convictions for assault, criminal damage and drug possession.

Who employed this driver? What checks were made? Who verified his credentials?

This is similar to Dennis Putz, also a multiple-banned driver who got a job driving HGVs and killed a cyclist doing nothing wrong. Putz was drunk and chatting on a mobile at the time. How come any lowlife criminal can get a job driving lorries in London?

As I said you need to differentiate criminality from road traffic accidents.Someone who drives a vehicle while unlicenced or while banned,let alone who runs anyone over as part of the former, should face a mandatory jail sentence.

However that isn’t the same thing as a licenced driver running over an undertaking cyclist while looking in the offside mirrors for example. :bulb:

38

whoever was at fault,they really need to start putting more effort into educating these cyclists,from what I have read in recent times they are getting killed because they keep going through on the inside of HGVs, why do they not use common sense,they never learn until its too late

39

scotstrucker:
The solution is very simple, just ban trucks over the weight of 7.5 from entering london during the hours of 5am till 8pm, any deliveries wanted outwith that hours will have to be made in in vans or 7.5 tonners.

There’s no guarantee that any type of vehicle is ummune for the issues of mixing large amounts of traffic with large amounts of cyclists.In this case the vehicle in question seems as close in terms of size to a 7.5 tonner as makes no difference.

40

m1cks:

scotstrucker:
The solution is very simple, just ban trucks over the weight of 7.5 from entering london during the hours of 5am till 8pm, any deliveries wanted outwith that hours will have to be made in in vans or 7.5 tonners.

You mean alongside the fact they’re banned from 9pm to 7am in most of London anyway?
People need to get real. Large cities need trucks, a fleet of vans will not be sensibly able to replace the capacity a truck has.
There needs to be a complete overhaul in the attitude of both cyclists and drivers when it comes to sharing the roads in such close quarters.
All the safety equipment and segregated cycle lanes will not stop people from acting foolishly. All it needs is for 2 of these fools to come together and you get a situation where by someone get seriously or fatally hurt.
The current trend of YouTube cyclist who go around pointing out every slight misdemeanour does nothing but provoke many drivers and causes ill feeling towards each other. There’s even clips of a cyclist sticking a go pro camera on a selfie stick through someone’s window to see what they’re doing on a phone.
Do I have the answer? No, if I did I’d be Boris’ best buddie but I do think there needs to be more done to educate cyclists of the road space large vehicles need instead of going for the easier to regulate registered vehicle.

a few years ago my young brother said exactly the same about banning lorries and using vans,i pointed out that the average transit can only carry around 1000kgs to 1500 kgs,you would need to have around 24 vans for what 1 artic can deliver,he kept quiet after that