A policeman took my ADR virginity!

NEW AND WANNABE DRIVERS (INTERACTIVE)
21

Well that answered that! :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth:

Thanks Dave, I knew you would clear it up, and I think we have managed a non technical ADR topic! :grimacing:
Or at least we had until you posted! :wink:

My suspicion would be this of what you said:

dieseldave:
From the not quite complete info to hand… It’s quite possible that you were carrying an ‘overpack.’

An ‘overpack’ is simply a bunch of stuff in packages that’s all going to the same customer, so it’s been palletised for convenience.
It’s nothing more than that and ADR recognises ‘overpacks’ and has a definition for them. (= a bunch of packaged stuff on a pallet.)
I’ve avoided unnecessary technicality here. :wink: :grimacing:

And it’s because of these sort of possibilities, I said i’d like to know a bit more! (But not so sure now! :laughing:)
I know you couldn’t possibly make a judgement without lots and lots of details, and i didn’t want to get into that, even if i could find my photocopy, that wasn’t really the point of my post. It was just to describe the experience to help others, maybe! :smiley:
It could be that the officer has made a mistake, but we all do that… So no hard feeling to him, but I have a feeling it won’t be the last time we meet! :smiley:

Yes he said that the HSE would be informed, but this is all now in the hands of my TM. So I don’t expect I’ll hear anything more without asking my TM how things have progressed. I know we as a company are at the right end of the traffic light rating system as far as the police and DVSA are concerned, but I guess a letter to the HSE might change that if there was an infringement.

On a separate note, but still about palletised ADR goods. On how many sides SHOULD an ADR pallet have Class warning markers (diamonds) on them? And do these HAVE to be on the surface, and not under a few layers of clear wrap? (Which i have seen, and believe is wrong as they are not as clearly visible!)

Thanks for taking the time to help and educating us all Dave! :grimacing:

22

Evil8Beezle:
On a separate note, but still about palletised ADR goods. On how many sides SHOULD an ADR pallet have Class warning markers (diamonds) on them? And do these HAVE to be on the surface, and not under a few layers of clear wrap? (Which i have seen, and believe is wrong as they are not as clearly visible!)

Oh dear!!

Now it’s going to get slightly technical, but firstly… as an employed driver, you’re not responsible for labelling.

An overpack must have Class labels on one side. If they’re visible through transparent wrap, then they’re OK.
If the wrap is opaque, whatever Class labels are needed on the packages inside must be repeated once (each) on one side of the outside.

There are a few other requirements for other marks and labels on overpacks, but I’ll stick to the question you asked about Class labels.

It’s not just the fact that there’s wrap on it that makes it an overpack.

ADR’s definition of an overpack:

“Overpack” means an enclosure used to contain one or more packages, consolidated into a single unit easier to handle and stow during carriage;

Examples of overpacks:

(a) A loading tray such as a pallet, on which several packages are placed or stacked and secured by a plastics strip, shrink or stretch wrapping or other appropriate means; or

(b) An outer protective packaging such as a box or a crate;

23

not having an adr licence,then it always amused me when i worked for a subby for a couple of years running from n.i. through uk into holland/france and back wth meat or flowers,though when there wasnt anything direct across the water,it would be chemicals out of lisburn to the uk,and then chemicals quite often other pickup places around england,as well as loads of paint from ici back to n.i…never once was i ever asked to show my adr entitlenent,and going on and off the ferries,it was the normal practice just to say you were carrying groupage at the booths with the stickers and badges flung in the back of the trailer out of sight.apparantly theres some companies that just dont give a toss.no doubt a bit naughty,but then again,nobody running with it seemed to care either way.myself included.it all sounds like too much greif for little or no extra money,with a bundle of red tape to boot as well.stick to fridges and curtainsiders,theres enough greif with them to keep anyone occupied .

24

Got me wondering now about picking paint up!

I regularly pick up paint from a place in North East, very well known brand.

I get anywhere between 10-20 pallets, all in I think 1l tins, about 50 per pallet give or take and I do keep wondering if it’s OK to carry this lot as its highly flammable ?

Anywhere that’s a decent website to find out what is acceptable limits??

25

dcgpx:
Got me wondering now about picking paint up!

I regularly pick up paint from a place in North East, very well known brand.

I get anywhere between 10-20 pallets, all in I think 1l tins, about 50 per pallet give or take and I do keep wondering if it’s OK to carry this lot as its highly flammable ?

Anywhere that’s a decent website to find out what is acceptable limits??

I’m sure Dave will be along at some point to give the CORRECT answer, but I’d say you are probably Ok, as the package sizes (1 litre) are fairly small. It’s a bit if a strange one really, as you could be carrying a full Artic of a dangerous good, but if the package sizes are below the ADR threshold, then it’s not ADR, and it doesn’t matter what the total volume comes to. Weird eh? :smiley:
And this is because if an accident occurred and your load went everywhere, it would be unlikely for the full volume of your load to split/break, and become a hazard if packaged in small container. But that is as far as I’m going to stick my neck out before Dave gives you the exact answer! :grimacing:

26

dieseldog999:
not having an adr licence,then it always amused me when i worked for a subby for a couple of years running from n.i. through uk into holland/france and back wth meat or flowers,though when there wasnt anything direct across the water,it would be chemicals out of lisburn to the uk,and then chemicals quite often other pickup places around england,as well as loads of paint from ici back to n.i…never once was i ever asked to show my adr entitlenent,and going on and off the ferries,it was the normal practice just to say you were carrying groupage at the booths with the stickers and badges flung in the back of the trailer out of sight.apparantly theres some companies that just dont give a toss.no doubt a bit naughty,but then again,nobody running with it seemed to care either way.myself included.it all sounds like too much greif for little or no extra money,with a bundle of red tape to boot as well.stick to fridges and curtainsiders,theres enough greif with them to keep anyone occupied .

Yes ADR can be a bit of a balls ache… But I’m paid by the hour and the extra time and hassle I’m paid for! :smiley:
Just like today where I got lumped into the 7.5t to make an ADR delivery (and others) to a tiny little country lane address that even pushed the mirrors in on both sides! :open_mouth: And oh my God, what that a right drama just to get the ADR kit sorted out… The truck/Van was meant to be set up for ADR, but sadly as it’s hardly ever used for this, everything had been robbed off it over time. It had the plates, it had the fire extinguisher holder, it had the wheel chock holder, but sadly these items were long gone, just like the plastic shovel, the drain cover, the absorbent pads, the sealed bucket, the warning triangles, the ADR bag with assorted items like Mask, Goggles, Eye Wash, Torch, Gloves etc… Basically it had nothing!!! So I spent 2.5 hours this morning cobbling this lot together…
But that is 2.5 hours pay, and as long as I have all the kit, the correct paperwork and do the right things, it’s actually not to bad, as I wasn’t being asked to leave without being happy, and I wouldn’t (Especially after last week! :smiley: As even a fire extinguisher that was out of date, wouldn’t have looked good on me currently…) And the only 2kg cab extinguesher I could find was out of date, so i had a 6kg in the cab instead! :smiley:

I just pray that I don’t have to do another ADR run in that little thing, as I know I’ll have to do the same again, but that’s not the reason I don’t want to do it. I just hated the little thing! :laughing:

27

Right, back to marker class labels, how about this one I had today?

And I’ve had a lot worse than that…
So in my opinion I think the class labels should be always on the outside, as i’d say it’s a grey area whether using clear wrap is OK or not.
Plus for the cost of using a few more stickers, I can’t see why they don’t say the labels should be on more than one side, just like the maritime regs.(I’ll stop there! :wink:)

On another note, yes it’s well wrapped for binding the tins together, but not for securing it to the pallet! :imp:

28

I used to work in a warehouse and itd boil my ■■■■ every time when people brought pallets through to me like that. Goods had 29 layers of wrap round them but relied on gravity to hold it to the pallet! No one ever gave a ■■■■ though and couldn’t understand that it’d end up looking like it’d been on the dodgems by the time it made it to customers!

Surely a label on each side should be the way to go, or are margins that tight!

29

NickW88:
I used to work in a warehouse and itd boil my ■■■■ every time when people brought pallets through to me like that. Goods had 29 layers of wrap round them but relied on gravity to hold it to the pallet! No one ever gave a [zb] though and couldn’t understand that it’d end up looking like it’d been on the dodgems by the time it made it to customers!

Surely a label on each side should be the way to go, or are margins that tight!

Couldn’t agree more on the wrap, especially with a Teflon, I mean plastic pallet! :laughing:
(The load in the pic got a ratchet strap over the top to help pin it down)

I’d say sticker the hell out of it, after all, how much gets spent on wrap? :open_mouth:

30

If I remember rightly the wrap we used to use was quite high micron and blue and was around £2000 for 700kg of the stuff, around 35 machine rolls. Used to throw no end away where some numpty dropped a roll so it never worked on the machine or scored it with a Stanley knife. Morons!

31

Speaking of expences, our lot spent over £100,000 on ratchet straps alone last year.

32

Radar19:
Speaking of expences, our lot spent over £100,000 on ratchet straps alone last year.

And even after all that, dozy is still on the loose

33

I had a bit of time to waste yesterday afternoon whilst on the m25 & see a DVSA motor & thought to myself let’s see if I can get him to pull me in, so I overtake him & slow down just enough so he overtakes me then I overtake him again & slow down & so on & so on BUT…NO!!! he just would not bite

34

dcgpx:
Got me wondering now about picking paint up!

I regularly pick up paint from a place in North East, very well known brand.

I get anywhere between 10-20 pallets, all in I think 1l tins, about 50 per pallet give or take and I do keep wondering if it’s OK to carry this lot as its highly flammable ?

Anywhere that’s a decent website to find out what is acceptable limits??

26 tons of oil based paint heading back to paddyland has to be a hazard for someone sooner or later…fortunately for me and the dudes still running it,then later hasn’t happened yet. everything drives onto the ferries as groupage.though I suppose you could call 3 or 4 pickups of various naughty stuff as groupage if you omit the haz part? :slight_smile:

35

dcgpx:
Got me wondering now about picking paint up!

I regularly pick up paint from a place in North East, very well known brand.

I get anywhere between 10-20 pallets, all in I think 1l tins, about 50 per pallet give or take and I do keep wondering if it’s OK to carry this lot as its highly flammable ?

Anywhere that’s a decent website to find out what is acceptable limits??

Hi dcgpx,

If it’s as you described, the paint you collect is very likely to be Limited Quantities, so there is no limit.

I don’t know of a website that’s interactive enough to get dangerous goods questions correct.
Your boss should have a qualified DGSA, or at least access to one so that the exact circumstances can be taken into account before advice can be given.

36

Thankd DD.

I was back there today, coincidence! and this time they had new fella covering despatch and he handed me a bunch of Red Stickers, with the fire symbol and 3 in corner. He then stuck a UN1263 across it. Never had these given before.

Looked at the Dangerous Goods notes and says Transport in accordance with 2.3.2.5 of IDMG code and another line saying Carriage in accordance with 1.1.4.2.1.

Along with list of qty ( 220 x metal can (6 x0.75L), 67 Boxes (2x2.5L), 200 metal can (1x1L)

Now…(getting to point at last) I looked up those conditions and seem Ok that the can etc are marked so all good. Until I came across a snippet that said if single consignment is over 8 tonnes then it becomes an ADR load? I regularly pick up 10t + so am I still Ok? There was also something along lines of the transport should be end to end where as we are middle hauliers?

Not to mention that we should (recommended but not mandatory ) have an awareness course for ADR when carrying this sort of amount?

And here’s me thinking its a simple pick up or am I thinking too much on it?

37

I’m finding myself at times questioning whether the load I’m carrying is ADR or not, and the delivery ticket isn’t always helpful… As it will say on it that the product is hazardous, but when they don’t have a Dangerous Good Notice attached, I have a good look at the load to see what i think. Now this is pretty easy with items on cardboard boxes that have the limited quantities marker on them, but other types of loads can be a bit more questionable…

I recently had a pallet of heavy weight gas cylinders to deliver, most of which were ‘Hobby Gas’ in roughly 3’ tall cylinders, but a couple of others were not! :smiley: Now Hobby Gas is used in mig welding and essentially inert, but 2 slightly smaller cylinders on the pallet were acetylene, and that’s far from inert! :astonished: So I was surprised that this pallet didn’t have a DG’s notice attached, and questioned it with the office. But as we didn’t have our ADR guy there at the time, the load was taken off. However now, because of my incident that started this thread, I’m starting to question if I can rely on the paperwork I’m being given. (Just like dcgpx is…)

38

dcgpx:
Thankd DD.

I was back there today, coincidence! and this time they had new fella covering despatch and he handed me a bunch of Red Stickers, with the fire symbol and 3 in corner. He then stuck a UN1263 across it. Never had these given before.

Looked at the Dangerous Goods notes and says Transport in accordance with 2.3.2.5 of IDMG code and another line saying Carriage in accordance with 1.1.4.2.1.

Along with list of qty ( 220 x metal can (6 x0.75L), 67 Boxes (2x2.5L), 200 metal can (1x1L)

Hi dcgpx,

From what you’ve said so far, it seems that the new guy might have got himself a bit mixed-up.

I can help, but I have to ask you a few questions please:

1.) What size were the “Red Stickers,” and how many did he give you please?
(They were either 100mm X 100mm [labels] OR 250mm X 250mm [placards] for UN Class 3)

2.) Were you driving a vehicle, or were you driving a vehicle that was carrying an ISO container?

3.) Do you own the vehicle in question?

4.) You mentioned IMDG, so were you collecting a load that was to go by ship at some part of the overall journey?

dcgpx:
Now…(getting to point at last) I looked up those conditions and seem Ok that the can etc are marked so all good.

Why on earth did you do that?? :open_mouth:

The consignor (= sender) is responsible for all that, then he has to inform the carrier (the vehicle owner) of what’s to be loaded.
The driver then turns up to collect the load.
The driver works for the carrier, and so takes his instructions from the carrier.
In most cases, the law says that the carrier is entitled to rely on information given to him by the consignor.

Both the consignor AND the carrier must have a qualified DGSA to advise them in cases of any doubt as to what parts of the ADR Regs are applicable to any given job.

An employed driver has NO responsibility (and is therefore not answerable) for any of the above.

If a driver owns his own vehicle, then he becomes a carrier and assumes the responsibilities that go with that, and so must appoint a qualified DGSA.

dcgpx:
Until I came across a snippet that said if single consignment is over 8 tonnes then it becomes an ADR load?

Either the “snippet” is wrong, or you’ve read it incorrectly. (Sorry mate, but no other options are available.)

dcgpx:
I regularly pick up 10t + so am I still Ok?

As long as a consignment is packaged correctly as Limited Quantities (LQs,) then the following applies:

IF your vehicle is legally capable of weighing in excess of 12t GVW AND you have more than 8t of LQs loaded, THEN the vehicle needs to be marked at the front and rear.

At no stage does that ever become a load which needs an ADR trained driver, nor are any fire extinguishers, vehicle equipment or all the other stuff needed.

Examples:
A 7.5t vehicle carrying a full load of LQs does NOT need markings.
An artic carrying 7t of LQs does NOT need markings.

dcgpx:
There was also something along lines of the transport should be end to end where as we are middle hauliers?

Now you’ve got me wondering what it was that you were reading.

dcgpx:
Not to mention that we should (recommended but not mandatory ) have an awareness course for ADR when carrying this sort of amount?

Sorry mate, but that bit is wrong too… Awareness training IS mandatory.
Now you’ve deepened my wonderment at what you were reading.

dcgpx:
And here’s me thinking its a simple pick up or am I thinking too much on it?

It is a simple pick-up, and Yes, you’re very probably overthinking it all.

If you can answer my questions above, I can give you a good and accurate answer. :smiley:

39

Evil8Beezle:
I’m finding myself at times questioning whether the load I’m carrying is ADR or not, and the delivery ticket isn’t always helpful… As it will say on it that the product is hazardous, but when they don’t have a Dangerous Good Notice attached, I have a good look at the load to see what i think. Now this is pretty easy with items on cardboard boxes that have the limited quantities marker on them, but other types of loads can be a bit more questionable…

There’s a world of difference between the word “hazardous” and the word “dangerous.” :smiley:

Anybody can carry hazardous goods, whereas the ADR course and licence is for dangerous goods.

It’s possible that some goods are labelled as hazardous, but nothing else applies.

Evil8Beezle:
I recently had a pallet of heavy weight gas cylinders to deliver, most of which were ‘Hobby Gas’ in roughly 3’ tall cylinders, but a couple of others were not! :smiley: Now Hobby Gas is used in mig welding and essentially inert, but 2 slightly smaller cylinders on the pallet were acetylene, and that’s far from inert! :astonished: So I was surprised that this pallet didn’t have a DG’s notice attached, and questioned it with the office. But as we didn’t have our ADR guy there at the time, the load was taken off. However now, because of my incident that started this thread, I’m starting to question if I can rely on the paperwork I’m being given. (Just like dcgpx is…)

If you were carrying only the two types of gases in the sizes that you’ve described, it’s quite possible that you were carrying a load that qualifies for the ‘small load’ exemption. If that’s true, then you only needed a 2kg fire-extinguisher and nothing else applied to the job.

:bulb: If I were your company’s DGSA, I’d make sure that the office staff knew whether a load is/is not subject to ADR.

Your question is somewhat similar to dcpgx’s, so once I’ve got the info, my answer might be of interest to you. :smiley:

40

dieseldave:
I can help, but I have to ask you a few questions please:

1.) What size were the “Red Stickers,” and how many did he give you please?
(They were either 100mm X 100mm [labels] OR 250mm X 250mm [placards] for UN Class 3)

They were 250 x250mm - One for each pallet

dieseldave:
2.) Were you driving a vehicle, or were you driving a vehicle that was carrying an ISO container?

I drive a 26t rigid curtainsider

dieseldave:
3.) Do you own the vehicle in question?

Nope just a pauper driver!

dieseldave:
4.) You mentioned IMDG, so were you collecting a load that was to go by ship at some part of the overall journey?

Yes - We pick up as middle men, its then picked up again from or depot and taken to whichever docks it travelling from by another firm. Dont have much more than that I’m afraid

dieseldave:

dcgpx:
Now…(getting to point at last) I looked up those conditions and seem Ok that the can etc are marked so all good.

Why on earth did you do that?? :open_mouth:

I was simply curious to see what they meant as no-ones ever said what they were to me.

dieseldave:
The consignor (= sender) is responsible for all that, then he has to inform the carrier (the vehicle owner) of what’s to be loaded.
The driver then turns up to collect the load.
The driver works for the carrier, and so takes his instructions from the carrier.
In most cases, the law says that the carrier is entitled to rely on information given to him by the consignor.

Both the consignor AND the carrier must have a qualified DGSA to advise them in cases of any doubt as to what parts of the ADR Regs are applicable to any given job.

An employed driver has NO responsibility (and is therefore not answerable) for any of the above.

If a driver owns his own vehicle, then he becomes a carrier and assumes the responsibilities that go with that, and so must appoint a qualified DGSA.

If my firms got one, its news to me and I very much doubt its crossed their minds to be honest

dieseldave:

dcgpx:
Until I came across a snippet that said if single consignment is over 8 tonnes then it becomes an ADR load?

Either the “snippet” is wrong, or you’ve read it incorrectly. (Sorry mate, but no other options are available.)

Probably did misread it, it was HSE site (hse.gov.uk/cdg/manual/exemptions.htm) and does say “In certain circumstances (ADR 3.4.13) the vehicle has to be marked if carrying at least 8t on LQ packages” - though I dont think that applies to paint now!

dieseldave:

dcgpx:
I regularly pick up 10t + so am I still Ok?

As long as a consignment is packaged correctly as Limited Quantities (LQs,) then the following applies:

IF your vehicle is legally capable of weighing in excess of 12t GVW AND you have more than 8t of LQs loaded, THEN the vehicle needs to be marked at the front and rear.

At no stage does that ever become a load which needs an ADR trained driver, nor are any fire extinguishers, vehicle equipment or all the other stuff needed.

Examples:
A 7.5t vehicle carrying a full load of LQs does NOT need markings.
An artic carrying 7t of LQs does NOT need markings.

Maybe this is where I’ve got confused and itts just the markers required??

dieseldave:

dcgpx:
There was also something along lines of the transport should be end to end where as we are middle hauliers?

Now you’ve got me wondering what it was that you were reading.

Again from HSE site on Retail Distribution of LQ Packages

dieseldave:

dcgpx:
Not to mention that we should (recommended but not mandatory ) have an awareness course for ADR when carrying this sort of amount?

Sorry mate, but that bit is wrong too… Awareness training IS mandatory.
Now you’ve deepened my wonderment at what you were reading.

Never had any nor hopeful of any any time soon! Cant find which site I got that one off

dieseldave:

dcgpx:
And here’s me thinking its a simple pick up or am I thinking too much on it?

It is a simple pick-up, and Yes, you’re very probably overthinking it all.

More than likely! Too much time on my hands that day!! Still think my firms not quite doing it right though but dont want to be the one in ■■■ ■■■ if I neecd to be doing something I’m not aware off