What's the verdict here

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
61

newmercman:

paulweller84:
Newmercman: personally I disagree with that method. If the driver were to move out the right approaching his left hand turn to allow him to turn in without crossing the centre line of the road he is entering, what would happen if, on approach a vehicle came from the road on the left wanting to turn right? I’ve had trainees attempt this many times and often it results in a ‘check mate’ scenario where you want to turn left, the other vehicle wants to turn right and one of you has to reverse. You’re better staying in your lane on approach, slowing right down to see into the road before turning, then taking a slow wide turn with full observation into the road.

My verdict, Selco driver 100% at fault for not observing the road being entered sufficiently to avoid losing other roads users in the N/S mirror/A pillar blind spot, plus excessive approach and enter speed.

Love that BBC article by the way. Great advice from the ‘expert.’

This statement is one of the reasons why those that can, do, and those that can’t, teach!

If you’ve ever driven a lorry in an urban environment then you would know that you use as much of the road you are leaving as you can, if there is a vehicle coming up the road you are trying to enter, the wide swing before the turn would mean that the vehicle in that road can continue to the end of the road unhindered as you will be on your side of the road as you have approached the junction correctly.

If you are trying to tell me that the correct approach is to hug the kerb and go into oncoming traffic in the road you are entering then, I’m sorry, but that is complete ■■■■■■■■ and if that is the standard to which new drivers are being taught, then God help us.

^ This

It’s a bit like the brakes to slow argument.As I said there’s no way that any driver would take such a stupid line on the approach to a left hand turn unless they’ve been taught that way.While there is also an example on here of the eventual logical conclusion of that when a tipper driver ran of room and then had to make a reverse shunt to clear a keep left sign on the road he was turning into having obviously followed the new training regime ideas. :unamused:

62

paulweller84:
I see the point you’re making, and it certain situations that does work, but not as a rule. Often, as would be likely in the case of this video, you would need to encroach into oncoming traffic in the main road to make the turn and would not be guaranteed to make the turn without crossing the centre line of the road entered, therefore not guaranteed to allow room for an oncoming vehicle from the side road.

However (and at no point did I mention hugging the kerb) moving fully to the right of your lane on approach (or even putting the right wheels on the line) causes no interference with oncoming traffic, and prevents the situation where you cannot successfully make the turn without crossing the centre of the road you’re entering.
methods change and if that is the case here then I am pleased for it.

The correct method is do whatever it takes to ‘maximise’ the amount of room left on the nearside during the ‘approach’ to ‘minimise’ the amount needed to be taken on the road being turned into.Anything which says otherwise is dangerous bollox.

63

paulweller84:
0

See right hand diagram. Taken from Official training material for DVSA Registered LGV instructors.

So the inconvenient truth that it would be fair to say it is at least partly another training regime zb up and not totally the unfortunate driver’s fault.The fact is trucks aren’t cars and you don’t approach a left hand turn with a truck using the same position as you would with a car. :imp:

64

Recently, I keep tending to agree with CF. Does anybody know of any side effects of this behaviour?

Robroy??

65

paulweller84:
Thank you. “You’re crap.”

National average pass rate: 55%

My pass rate: in excess of 80%.

First time pass on DVSA Part 2 & 3, Driving and Instructional ability test.

Highest performing LGV Instructor in my current contract.

A ‘pass rate’ which is obviously based on the idea of the DVSA saying that trucks should be driven like cars according to the diagram. :unamused:

66

paulweller84:
Remember, the video we’re discussing here. The Selco truck had room to make the turn without mounting the kerb, I commented that the method was correct, but the observation was poor.

:unamused:

So you’re making a left turn here are you saying take the position of the coach :open_mouth: :unamused: or put the offside wheels over the line where the oncoming van is ?. :bulb:

google.co.uk/maps/@51.474222 … 312!8i6656

67

albion1971:

waynedl:

newmercman:

paulweller84:
Newmercman: personally I disagree with that method. If the driver were to move out the right approaching his left hand turn to allow him to turn in without crossing the centre line of the road he is entering, what would happen if, on approach a vehicle came from the road on the left wanting to turn right? I’ve had trainees attempt this many times and often it results in a ‘check mate’ scenario where you want to turn left, the other vehicle wants to turn right and one of you has to reverse. You’re better staying in your lane on approach, slowing right down to see into the road before turning, then taking a slow wide turn with full observation into the road.

My verdict, Selco driver 100% at fault for not observing the road being entered sufficiently to avoid losing other roads users in the N/S mirror/A pillar blind spot, plus excessive approach and enter speed.

Love that BBC article by the way. Great advice from the ‘expert.’

This statement is one of the reasons why those that can, do, and those that can’t, teach!

If you’ve ever driven a lorry in an urban environment then you would know that you use as much of the road you are leaving as you can, if there is a vehicle coming up the road you are trying to enter, the wide swing before the turn would mean that the vehicle in that road can continue to the end of the road unhindered as you will be on your side of the road as you have approached the junction correctly.

If you are trying to tell me that the correct approach is to hug the kerb and go into oncoming traffic in the road you are entering then, I’m sorry, but that is complete ■■■■■■■■ and if that is the standard to which new drivers are being taught, then God help us.

+1

I’ve never heard so much [zb] since I heard that RM ‘expert’. You swing wide on approach, observe the road you’re about to turn in to, if a vehicle is coming down and wanting to turn right, you stop BEFORE the road - no reversing required, it’s not bloody rocket science.

By swinging wide - where possible - it IMPROVES your vision of the road you’re entering, with big thick pillars and multiple mirrors on todays lorrys, the nearside front corner is terrible for vision, so take it out of the equation.

Do us a favour, don’t teach anyone else, you’re crap and your instruction will put more crap drivers with no bloody idea on the roads - like they’re not bad enough anyway

Wayne I have come across many drivers like yourself who consider themselves top notch but in reality they are well below standard.
You may be a good driver but in whose opinion?
Just yours probably.
You seem to have a problem with someone who clearly knows what they are talking about which does not make you look very good.
There are plenty of experienced drivers who do not have a clue how to turn correctly. Swinging out on approach is not a good way to go in most situations and some drivers seem to do it st every turn. Bad driving which can cause a lot of confusion.

Albion, to be honest mate, I don’t care what you think of me :wink:

Above, you agree with this ‘instructors’ method.

In my experience, the most common 2 types of HGV are ‘normal’ length artics, and rigids with massive tail swings, neither of these would be good to turn left from the left lane into a tight road.

That Selco wagon in the video might as well have used lane 2 on his exit road, because his tail swing would’ve been in that lane anyway - someone who doesn’t really understand physics could’ve ploughed into that whilst he was busy destroying that poor riders pride and joy.

In my opinion, I’m a pretty good driver, not perfect - who is - but pretty good. I’ve got this opinion by not crashing very often, not making many ■■■■-ups and also having driven moaning gits (passengers) around for longer than I’ve driven silent goods around, and trust me, if my driving was sub standard - or they’re just on rag week - complaints come in thick and fast. So, yeah, I’m quite confident that I drive pretty well :unamused:

68

waynedl:
Albion, to be honest mate, I don’t care what you think of me :wink:

Above, you agree with this ‘instructors’ method.

In my experience, the most common 2 types of HGV are ‘normal’ length artics, and rigids with massive tail swings, neither of these would be good to turn left from the left lane into a tight road.

That Selco wagon in the video might as well have used lane 2 on his exit road, because his tail swing would’ve been in that lane anyway - someone who doesn’t really understand physics could’ve ploughed into that whilst he was busy destroying that poor riders pride and joy.

In my opinion, I’m a pretty good driver, not perfect - who is - but pretty good. I’ve got this opinion by not crashing very often, not making many ■■■■-ups and also having driven moaning gits (passengers) around for longer than I’ve driven silent goods around, and trust me, if my driving was sub standard - or they’re just on rag week - complaints come in thick and fast. So, yeah, I’m quite confident that I drive pretty well :unamused:

Firstly as I’ve posted in the google maps photo of the location.It is a reasonably wide road.But it’s obviously been altered with a new ( painted ) road layout.As it was there would have been no need to actually put the offside wheels even over the original divider on the approach,which can still be seen next to the new opposing traffic lane marking,anyway.

As for the mad idea of approach tight on the approach road and go wide on the entry road.It seems to have originated across the Atlantic as a bs attempt to appease the nutters who like to undertake wide turning trucks on the approach.

Then they’ve got the nerve to blame the driver whatever happens wether it be inevitably eventually collecting approaching traffic in the case of the wide entry road idea,as in this case,or taking out the nutters who want to undertake while turning wide on the approach road. :unamused: :imp:

youtube.com/watch?v=TUuykWghNTk

69

It is illegal to cross a line and force oncoming traffic to stop in the road you are turning into in the US and Canada, you can cut across with a trailer on a left turn, but when turning right, you swing wide before making the turn as not to obstruct any traffic in the road you are entering. Obviously a right turn here is the same as a left turn there in relation to the vehicle’s position.

Even with a set of turnpike doubles (2×53’ trailers) you are not allowed to cross the center line of the road you’re turning into on a right turn. Because of this we are restricted to 4 lane roads and have permitted routes in cities.

Irrespective of that, as it means SFA in Britain, it’s pure common sense to use all the road before you turn, as you approach the turning you can move over to the right in advance, while still leaving enough trailer near the kerb to prevent somebody coming up the inside as you turn. Once your intentions are clear, then you swing out a little wider just before you start to turn, steering past the turning and coming back to your side of the road you are entering.

I used this method for 20yrs in big cities all over the UK and Europe without incident, sure I had few try to nip up the inside, but because of my positioning, basically being as straight as possible until the last minute, I was able to see them long before it was going to cause a crash, the same applied to vehicles trying to pass on the offside potentially getting caught by tail swing, I could see them and prevent them from passing by correct positioning prior to turning.

You can quote all the books and regulations that you want, the method I, and many other professional drivers use is the safe way to do it and no amount of arguing on here will persuade me otherwise, 29yrs without hitting anything while turning left in Britain and right elsewhere in the world is absolute proof that my method works, whereas the video at the top of this thread proves that the other way is an accident waiting to happen.

70

Wayne I have nothing against you or anyone else on this forum but I have just come across so many experienced drivers that although they are very confident in what they do they have picked up a lot of bad driving habits over the years.
Some of the habits may be not worth worrying about but others are causing problems to other road users.
Most that I have assessed when told realise their mistakes and understand what they have been doing wrong.
I class my self as an experienced driver having driven lorries (artics a frame drawbars and all types of rigids) and coaches for 25 years before doing 20 years in the training industry.
Regarding carrying passengers I travel on the local buses now and again and the standard of driving is generally pretty bad with heavy braking speeding and regularly running red lights and well lets not talk about some cornering techniques but I never hear anyone complaining. In fact they all greet the driver with a thank you as they get off so your theory does not look so good.
Anyway I find it ridiculous that people on here (all lorry drivers presumably) argue about basic driving techniques.
It just goes to show that the basic test is far from suitable. In my view the only way to improve standards is to either make the test harder or re assess every driver after 3 to 5 years.
The one thing most of us seem to agree about is the poor driving standards on the roads but as we are all experts on here where are all the bad drivers coming from?

71

albion1971:
Wayne I have nothing against you or anyone else on this forum but I have just come across so many experienced drivers that although they are very confident in what they do they have picked up a lot of bad driving habits over the years.
Some of the habits may be not worth worrying about but others are causing problems to other road users.
Most that I have assessed when told realise their mistakes and understand what they have been doing wrong.
I class my self as an experienced driver having driven lorries (artics a frame drawbars and all types of rigids) and coaches for 25 years before doing 20 years in the training industry.
Regarding carrying passengers I travel on the local buses now and again and the standard of driving is generally pretty bad with heavy braking speeding and regularly running red lights and well lets not talk about some cornering techniques but I never hear anyone complaining. In fact they all greet the driver with a thank you as they get off so your theory does not look so good.
Anyway I find it ridiculous that people on here (all lorry drivers presumably) argue about basic driving techniques.
It just goes to show that the basic test is far from suitable. In my view the only way to improve standards is to either make the test harder or re assess every driver after 3 to 5 years.
The one thing most of us seem to agree about is the poor driving standards on the roads but as we are all experts on here where are all the bad drivers coming from?

I didn’t just drive service buses, I drove limo’s, coaches, taxi’s, stag and hen do’s, corporate do’s etc etc etc. These people LOVE to complain - can usually result in at least a partial refund - or, if not complain, they love to puke, I don’t wanna be cleaning that ■■■■ up, but if you’re driving is decent, then, not only do you not have any complaints or puke to clean up, you sometimes even get a tip :open_mouth:

I’ve also driven most types of HGV, from puddle jumpers to a-frames, including tank-tainers (tanks in a container ISO frame = VERY high C.O.G and very unlikely to have baffles).

Currently I drive large paper reels, such as seen in the pic, via agency, again not something you want to race around, and I get them to their destination. If someone can’t be arsed indicating on a roundabout and I’ve any reason to suspect they’re not coming past, then they decide they’re coming my way but I’ve committed, guess what, they’re bloody braking, because I’m not going to slam on or swerve.

I’ve admitted, I’m not perfect and I have bad habits, the difference being mine are bad habits, not bad / dangerous instruction, 1 hand on the wheel type bad habits, compared to instructing someone to keep left in a HGV or a coach or any other large vehicle when turning left…

I got knocked off my bike last year, a car driver in the LEFT lane on approach to a roundabout with 2 lanes on and 2 lanes off on primary route (5 exits total, 3rd being primary route) decides he wants exit 4, from the left lane, with no indication, and you know what the little ■■■■ said “we’re taught not to indicate until we’re coming off a roundabout”… How the hell is someone on your right supposed to know if you’re indicating left or not?? Keep teaching the way you’re told, it doesn’t make it right for the real world :unamused:

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72

Wayne-are you working out of Preston Brook mate?

73

eagerbeaver:
Wayne-are you working out of Preston Brook mate?

Carrington, but nipped into Preston Brook on Thursday for fuel, oil, ad blue, new number plate, tyre pressure check / top up and a trailer swap lol

74

Haha-sure you didn’t need anything else??

I popped in there sniffing for a job after passing my test. I assume you are local to Warrington mate?

75

Wayne I am not going to argue but no qualified instructor gives dangerous instruction. They have very strict exams and test to pass before doing any training.
Of course when you get a company that employes a normal driver to train or assess then things generally go wrong.
You did not say where you thought all the bad lorry drivers came from?

76

eagerbeaver:
Haha-sure you didn’t need anything else??

I popped in there sniffing for a job after passing my test. I assume you are local to Warrington mate?

No, East Manchester. If you needed a job, I’m sure they’d oblige… £8.50 per hour, no overtime rate and docked 1hr break, currently recruiting…

77

For Christ’s sake Albion, just leave it alone. He said he doesn’t agree with you.

Even though you are the best driver/instructor/mentor/God etc… that has ever graced our solar system.

78

albion1971:
Wayne I am not going to argue but no qualified instructor gives dangerous instruction. They have very strict exams and test to pass before doing any training.
Of course when you get a company that employes a normal driver to train or assess then things generally go wrong.
You did not say where you thought all the bad lorry drivers came from?

I’d say most bad lorry drivers come from bad instruction, followed closely by bad on-going training, again closely followed by bad company management / pressure / planning, and lastly from bad attitude.

The video above proves, without a shadow of a doubt, that the way the ‘trainer / instructor’ above, that you agreed with, is training in a dangerous manner in my opinion. Advising the drivers of large vehicles to keep left when turning left, resulting in poor vision, going onto the wrong side of the road that they’re entering (could easily be a car park exit etc), risk of tail swing etc etc etc, OR take more room on the road you’re leaving, plenty of indication and mirrors, sensible positioning to make it clear what you’re doing and discourage any passing manoeuvres (inside or outside) and have an incident free turn into the road.
As I said earlier, if a car is coming up the road, you stop BEFORE the road, which will allow them to leave the street (however if more arrive and try taking the ■■■■, then you use your size to encourage them to reverse :smiling_imp: ) and giving you the room and time to take the turn safely.

79

As I said I cannot be bothered arguing with you but your opinion is not correct. I have not read all the posts but no instructor would say keep to the left.
They might say keep to the left of the centre line which in most cases is correct. I have trained many drivers whom I am still in touch with and the majority are good drivers however there are a few that should not be on the road. Nothing to do with the training.

It seems to me a lot of lorry drivers on this forum hate everything but themselves.

Cyclists.Cars.Coach drivers.van drivers and any sort of trainers. As I have said plenty times all the bad driving comes from bad attitudes which are in abundance throughout this forum and on the road.

80

I got knocked off my bike last year, a car driver in the LEFT lane on approach to a roundabout with 2 lanes on and 2 lanes off on primary route (5 exits total, 3rd being primary route) decides he wants exit 4, from the left lane, with no indication, and you know what the little [zb] said “we’re taught not to indicate until we’re coming off a roundabout”… How the hell is someone on your right supposed to know if you’re indicating left or not?? Keep teaching the way you’re told, it doesn’t make it right for the real world :unamused:

A perfect example of a car driver who passed a basic test probably years ago and has forgotten what they have been told.
Indication is taught the same all over but as I am sure you know a lot of drivers do not bother or use a wrong signal or none at all. Nothing to do with the training but all to do with drivers inability to store information properly. I will say a lot of the problem stems from when they stopped the learning of the highway code and introduced the theory test. People now learn what they have to to pass and then forget most of it. Any good driver would keep up to date with the highway code but most do not bother so if you think every car and lorry driver that does not signal properly has been badly trained you really need to get a grip on reality. :unamused: