Pimpdaddy:
Get the Irish in here, then see what’s bent & who really gives a …!
Do you work for VOSA?
Happydaze:
Pimpdaddy:
Get the Irish in here, then see what’s bent & who really gives a …!Do you work for VOSA?
Asking a bit too much there don’t you think ‘Drive’…!?
Pimpdaddy:
Happydaze:
Pimpdaddy:
Get the Irish in here, then see what’s bent & who really gives a …!Do you work for VOSA?
Asking a bit too much there don’t you think ‘Drive’…!?
Well do you? Have you ever been to Holyhead?
Richdad:
schrodingers cat:
Is it right that after 2006 all trucks must be fitted with a digi tacho, but theres nothing stopping you fitting an analugue one as well and using that? May be one for the gurus.Hi Schroedinger (and your cat!),
You could FIT an analogue tacho, but NOT USE it on its own if there is a digital tacho fitted too.
The following is just a taster to show that EU rules are more complicated than Quantum Physics:
In the EU, EEC regulation 3821/85 made [analogue] tachographs mandatory throughout the EEC as of 29 September 1986. for the purpose of improving road safety. VOSA says: “regulation 1360/2002 makes digital tachographs mandatory for all relevant vehicles manufactured after August 1, 2005. Digital tachographs would be required as of May 1, 2006 for all new vehicles for which EWG regulation VO(EWG)3820/85 applies”
[u]http://dtc.jrc.it/helpdesk_faq.php[/u] [EU’s digital tach website]
“Within AETR countries, traditional analogue tachographs can installed on vehicles until 2010.”Regulation (EC) No 561/2006"Article 26
Regulation (EEC) No 3821/85 is hereby amended as follows:
2. Article 3(1), (2) and (3) shall be replaced as follows:
"1. Recording equipment shall be installed and used in vehicles registered in a Member State which are used for the carriage of passengers or goods by road, except the vehicles referred to in Article 3 of this requirement.Like your infamous cat, the upshot could be that an Enforcement Officer might not know which tacho you had (analogue or digital) until he opened your cab, but he/she would certainly know which report you should be providing when asked (digital).
There’s no ambiguity at all.
Article 288 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (one of the two core EU treaties) states that “A regulation shall have general application. It shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States.” In other words, an EU Regulation is automatically binding law in every EU Member State. EU law is also supreme over national law; indeed, the European Court of Justice ruled in Simmenthal that national law conflicting with EU law is of no effect to the extent of the conflict.
As such, the permission to install analogue tachographs in AETR countries until 2010 is of no relevance to vehicles registered in an EUÂ Member State, which must have digital tachographs installed if the vehicle was first registered on or after 1 May 2006.
I haven’t trawled right through the tachograph legislation (not least as EUR-Lex isn’t working at the moment), but I would expect to find some provision that you can’t have a digital and analogue tachograph fitted to the same vehicle.
If a vehicle previously fitted with a traditional (i.e. non-modular) analogue tachograph has a digital tachograph fitted, the analogue tachograph is sometimes left in place to provide speed indication. However, the tachograph centre will mark the analogue tachograph to show it is for speed indication only, will remove the mode switches and I believe the styli are bent or cut as well.
In communist Sweden, tachograph cards throw YOU out the window…
SwedishSteel:
In communist Sweden, tachograph cards throw YOU out the window…
Random! Quality! 
Happydaze:
Pimpdaddy:
Happydaze:
Pimpdaddy:
Get the Irish in here, then see what’s bent & who really gives a …!Do you work for VOSA?
Asking a bit too much there don’t you think ‘Drive’…!?
Well do you? Have you ever been to Holyhead?
Yes I have been to Holyhead, why…?
Pimpdaddy:
Happydaze:
Pimpdaddy:
Happydaze:
Pimpdaddy:
Get the Irish in here, then see what’s bent & who really gives a …!Do you work for VOSA?
Asking a bit too much there don’t you think ‘Drive’…!?
Well do you? Have you ever been to Holyhead?
Yes I have been to Holyhead, why…?
IT’S HIM IT’S HIM!! LOOOOOK IT’S PUMPPADDY HE IS WELL DA RACIALIST VOSA GEEZA I IS WELL TELLIN DA MODZ AND U IS WELL GONNA GET BAN UP INNIT!
Happydaze:
Pimpdaddy:
Happydaze:
Pimpdaddy:
Happydaze:
Pimpdaddy:
Get the Irish in here, then see what’s bent & who really gives a …!Do you work for VOSA?
Asking a bit too much there don’t you think ‘Drive’…!?
Well do you? Have you ever been to Holyhead?
Yes I have been to Holyhead, why…?
IT’S HIM IT’S HIM!! LOOOOOK IT’S PUMPPADDY HE IS WELL DA RACIALIST VOSA GEEZA I IS WELL TELLIN DA MODZ AND U IS WELL GONNA GET BAN UP INNIT!
Whoa whoa wait a minute, how can I be a racialist-I luv paddys…!? 
djw:
There’s no ambiguity at all. … As such, the permission to install analogue tachographs in AETR countries until 2010 is of no relevance to vehicles registered in an EUÂ Member State, which must have digital tachographs installed if the vehicle was first registered on or after 1 May 2006.
Hi djw,
There is possibly still a misunderstanding here: I gave that quote on the AETR rules because it would also cover ANY member state (including those member states which also happen to be in the EU). The EU rules build on top of the default rules of the AETR.
To be clear: ALL EU states are individual members of the AETR group, and within the boundaries of an EU state, the EU rules trump the default AETR rules where they differ (but the current AETR rules are modelled on the EU rules anyway). Another subset of members is the EEA group of countries.
The remaining AETR members such as Albania etc are not in the EU or EEA, but the rules of the EU/EEA apply where journeys travel to/through/from those countries.
So, no analogue tachos to be fitted in the AETR (including EU countries) after 2010.
djw:
‘…There’s no ambiguity at all … EU law is also supreme over national law…’
Who remembers voting for that 
Richdad:
djw:
There’s no ambiguity at all. … As such, the permission to install analogue tachographs in AETR countries until 2010 is of no relevance to vehicles registered in an EUÂ Member State, which must have digital tachographs installed if the vehicle was first registered on or after 1 May 2006.There is possibly still a misunderstanding here: I gave that quote on the AETR rules because it would also cover ANY member state (including those member states which also happen to be in the EU). The EU rules build on top of the default rules of the AETR.
To be clear: ALL EU states are individual members of the AETR group, and within the boundaries of an EU state, the EU rules trump the default AETR rules where they differ (but the current AETR rules are modelled on the EU rules anyway). Another subset of members is the EEA group of countries.
The remaining AETR members such as Albania etc are not in the EU or EEA, but the rules of the EU/EEA apply where journeys travel to/through/from those countries.
So, no analogue tachos to be fitted in the AETR (including EU countries) after 2010.
We are both saying the same thing.
EU law is supreme, so vehicles in the scope of the tachograph regulations registered in EU Member States on or after 1 May 2006 must have digital tachographs. This is what I said in my earlier post.
This leaves vehicles captured by the AETR rules which are not registered in an EU Member State - as you rightly say, the AETR extends beyond the EU. Where these vehicles need tachographs fitted, these could have been analogue tachographs up to 2010.
I don’t see where there is any ambiguity. A UK haulier could not have said in 2009, “we are in an AETR country, so we will use the AETR derogation permitting fitment of an analogue tachograph to our new vehicles”. The EU regulation prevails over the AETR rules, so a digital tachograph is required.
I haven’t checked the detailed provisions of the EU tachograph regulations, but I would expect any vehicle first registered on or after 1 May 2006 in an AETR country that has an EU type-approved analogue tachograph fitted would have to have a digital tachograph installed if it was re-registered in an EU Member State.
In the UK, any vehicle in scope of the tachograph regulations which is presented for an MoT either has to be declared as exempt or have the correct type of tachograph fitted with an in-date calibration plaque installed. If neither of these conditions are satisfied, the vehicle will fail its MoT.
djw:
We are both saying the same thing.
Now we are.
What I was saying in my first post was that no analogue tachos could be fitted anywhere in Europe (AETR) after 2010, and what I thought you were trying to say was that digital tachos (only) must be fitted in the EU from 2006. That would indeed have left a potential gap between 2006 and 2010 in EU countries when an analogue tacho could possibly have been retrofitted to a 2006+ vehicle, alongside the digital tacho already fitted from new. The same gap would have existed until 2010 for new vehicles in non-AETR countries that may have been fitted from new with analogue instead of digital tachos.
But back to the Quantum Physics question:
schrodingers cat:
Is it right that after 2006 all trucks must be fitted with a digi tacho, but theres nothing stopping you fitting an analugue one as well and using that?
No, “creative” drivers and operators would NOT be able to use that approach to bend the working time rules which after all are all meant to improve road safety.
Richdad:
djw:
We are both saying the same thing.Now we are.
No, we’re not.
Richdad:
What I was saying in my first post was that no analogue tachos could be fitted anywhere in Europe (AETR) after 2010, and what I thought you were trying to say was that digital tachos (only) must be fitted in the EU from 2006.
Article 1 of Regulation 3821/85 in the latest 2011-11-01 consolidated version reads:
Recording equipment within the meaning of this Regulation shall, as regards construction, installation, use and testing, comply with the requirements of this Regulation â–ºM6 and of Annexes I or IB and II thereto â—„, which shall form an integral part of this Regulation.
The M6 marked section is an amendment introduced by Regulation 2135/98 (the link is to the latest consolidated version of 2006-05-01), which introduced digital tachographs.
Unpacking Article 1, it says “A tachograph for the purposes of this Regulation must comply with either Annex I (analogue tachographs) or Annex IB (digital tachographs). In either case, it must conform with Annex II (type approval marks or certificates)”.
Regulation 561/2006 amended Article 2 of Regulation 2135/98 to require Annex 1B recording equipment (i.e. digital tachographs) in vehicles first put into service 20 days after the publication of Regulation 561/2006 in the Official Journal. Regulation 561/2006 was in the OJ on 11 April 2006, so digital tachographs became mandatory on vehicles first used after 1 May 2006.
Unlike UK law, EU law is applied using the so-called teleological approach - it is read in a way that implements the purposes of the legislation and the wider purposes of the Treaties, which may depart from a literal approach. The purpose behind Regulation 2135/98 is made clear in paragraph 6 of the recital:
Whereas, to put an end to the most common abuses of the present system, it is therefore necessary to introduce new advanced equipment such as recording equipment fitted with an electronic device for storing relevant information and a personal driver card, so ensuring that the data recorded are retrievable, intelligible when printed out, and reliable, and that they provide anindisputable record of the work done by both the driver over the last few days and by the vehicle over a period of several months
I believe that the word “or” that I highlighted in bold in Article 1 of Regulation 3821/85 is crucial. I cannot see the courts allowing any recognition of an analogue tachograph installed alongside a digital tachograph for EUÂ purposes, irrespective of the date of first use of the vehicle. Article 1 of Regulation 3821/85 only allows one tachograph to be recognised for EUÂ purposes, and that will be the digital tachograph considering the teleological approach and paragraph 6 of the recital to Regulation 2135/98.
On vehicles first used after 1 May 2006, Article 2 of Regulation 2135/98 as amended by Regulation 561/2006 requires installation of digital tachographs when a tachograph is required. For these vehicles, it is even less likely that an analogue tachograph installed under AETR rules would be recognised as a tachograph for EU purposes when there is a digital tachograph installed to EUÂ rules also on the vehicle.
We’re splitting hairs in any case, as few if any vehicles have provision for more than one speed sender. It is likely that an analogue tachograph installation would have to be removed to install a digital tachograph. If the analogue installation was non-modular, the analogue head may have to be interfaced to the digital tachograph for speed indication, but in this case, the tachograph centre is required to remove the mode switches and mark the analogue head as for speed indication only. The analogue head ceases to be a type-approved and calibrated tachograph.
Richdad:
That would indeed have left a potential gap between 2006 and 2010 in EU countries when an analogue tacho could possibly have been retrofitted to a 2006+ vehicle, alongside the digital tacho already fitted from new. The same gap would have existed until 2010 for new vehicles in non-AETR countries that may have been fitted from new with analogue instead of digital tachos.But back to the Quantum Physics question:
schrodingers cat:
Is it right that after 2006 all trucks must be fitted with a digi tacho, but theres nothing stopping you fitting an analugue one as well and using that?No, “creative” drivers and operators would NOT be able to use that approach to bend the working time rules which after all are all meant to improve road safety.
When is a tachograph not a tachograph? As I’ve explained above, I believe that only the digital tachograph is a tachograph for the purposes of the EUÂ rules on any vehicle that has both an analogue and digital tachograph. The analogue tachograph is no longer a tachograph for EUÂ purposes.
Hi DJW,
I have too few hairs left on my head to split, so will decline to pursue the grammatical argument about parsing the “and” and “or” operators that come after the words " the requirements of Regulation M6 and of Annexes".
You gave one fact that trumps all of this and answers the original question of coexisting analogue and digital tachos better than anything else (NO, they cannot coexist!), namely:
“few if any vehicles have provision for more than one speed sender”
limeyphil:
i’m glad i’m being pushed out of this industry in 2014.
it’s an industry of selfish, grassing, backstabbing, jobsworth tossers.
do some of you find it hard to breath, when you’re so far up vosa’s arse.
100% agree phil
i remember something i wrote on here some years ago. it was then printed in truck and driver.
is it so bad if someone has been away from home for a few weeks, he arrives in dover but has to park up soon after for 45 hours. does he bend the rules to go home? or does he sit there, then set off 45 hours later, only to have to turn round and be away for a few weeks more?
ok…a bit of subject…
feb 08…9hrs driving im a legal
safe driver …march 08 …13hr driving ,16hr spreadover im a legal safe driver
difference being first in Uk …second in Canada.
some days i could feel exhausted after a couple o hrs …then other days just fly bye could drive all night (well that was the 80s-90s)
but grass another driver up …■■
did i know him, was he shagging my girlfriend,and the main one to me …is his company taking work from the company i work for!
jimmy
limeyphil:
‘…is it so bad if someone has been away from home for a few weeks, he arrives in dover but has to park up soon after for 45 hours. does he bend the rules to go home? or does he sit there, then set off 45 hours later, only to have to turn round and be away for a few weeks more…?’
What does our President in Brussels reckon?
Happiness felt by the Jubilee have masked the disaffection felt by many is caused by the gutless enemy that has crept beneath Her Majesty’s frock and demands that the EU is the Real Ubermeister.
In this context, our fortune (good or otherwise) of living on an island on the geographical periphery and having Dover as a common ferry landing place is clearly a fault and not a virtue as some would like to see it.
The ‘…rules…’ aren’t in ‘our’ interest and I hope any government lackey with the (EU’s) power to prosecute would see it that way and also chisel away at such insideous, foreign inspired nonsense.