What If...

lightning:
Thanks for all the views. I have to admit Im shocked at the attitude in letting sleeping dogs lie… Only a few weeks ago we were talking about a fatal accident on the M1 where a truck driver died after ploughing into the back of a stationary truck. We can only speculate as to the cause. I wouldnt want my conscience pricked by a death of a driver or innocent others, especially given that I could have done something about it. For the record I saw the tachos as the driver wasnt upto speed with even the basic tacho regs, and needed a different view. Point 2, is that the company arnt pinching work off us, so there is NO spite issue. 3. The drivers will take the rap for their errors, and its prob more than likely the management will assume business in a different guise, prob leaving drivers, suppliers and customers behind.
Would getting VOSA aware that there may be issues, by getting them pulled encourage them to run straighter? sort of a warning? and if they uncover far more serious shortcomings then so be it??

I can’t believe some of the responses to this topic lightning!! Imagine if this bloke caused a serious accident and you found out about it but didn’t let on to VOSA? I for one couldn’t live with the guilt of knowing I could of stopped him from killing someone from his own mindless stupidity.

Yes to both questions…

Is it right that after 2006 all trucks must be fitted with a digi tacho, but theres nothing stopping you fitting an analugue one as well and using that?

May be one for the gurus.

limeyphil:

Stevie DS:

limeyphil:
No to grassing, no matter what the alleged crime.
and what a load of crap about someone killing a wife and kids because they bent the rules. the rules make unsafe driving the norm.

I think that statement must be the stupidest thing I have read on here

really?
why not put a little thought into it?
here’s a couple of examples:
a driver is confident that he can make it to a nice quiet parking area, he gets stuck in traffic, then after the traffic gets going again he finds he’s out of time, and has to park in a layby on the side of a dual carriageway. although he has had 9 hours off he gets very little sleep. but the law says he’s legal to drive.
but his mate who was behind him says “sod that, i’m pulling the fuse”. he gets to a decent parking area and takes 9 hours off, but he sleeps like a log.
in my view one is legal but unsafe, the other is illegal but safe.

still stupid?

The sensible driver says sod it im out of time the parking area is half an hour away or what ever, goes over times does a print out and writes the reason on the back has 9 hour sleep and that will probably be the last he hears of it, ok not stricly legal but cant be considerd running bent

Well I can not see this job getting any better after reading this little lot, whats the mater with you all ,no wonder not many you ones want to come into the industry with hours and conditions that belong in the dark ages.

lightning:
For the record I saw the tachos as the driver wasnt upto speed with even the basic tacho regs, and needed a different view.

So was he running bent or thick as [zb] ■■ One guy who knows naff all about tachos does not make for a company running wholesale bent. :unamused: :unamused: If he’s that thick I would suspect anything he said as being bogus personally. :unamused: All I would say is that his employer should of picked it up though.

Looking at a hell of a lot of posts on here there’s a lot of people “running bent”. Not to mention the whining from some about doing more than 40 on single carriage way roads which is nicking time and so therefore running bent. Where do you draw the line ■■?

For once I have some sympathy for Limeyphils point. The rigidity of the drivers hours can mean you taking breaks when not tired but having to crack on when you are. If you are on a long international journey for example you end up rotating from day to night shift in an effort to stay legal and minimise journey time. Personally I feel longer days and keeping your sleep patterns and circadian rhythms regular is a safer way. :wink:

It would be interesting if the police were to look at more than just the legality of the drivers involved in accidents. If they were to look at the regularity of his/her shifts as well as where he/she had been parked/run out of hours. I don’t do laybyes or cruddy parking, if needs be it goes on the card with an explanation. I’d sooner do a bit over to get a good feed and sound nights sleep than worry about “the clock” :unamused: :unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

billybigrig:

lightning:
For the record I saw the tachos as the driver wasnt upto speed with even the basic tacho regs, and needed a different view.

So was he running bent or thick as [zb] ■■ One guy who knows naff all about tachos does not make for a company running wholesale bent. :unamused: :unamused: If he’s that thick I would suspect anything he said as being bogus personally. :unamused: All I would say is that his employer should of picked it up though.

Looking at a hell of a lot of posts on here there’s a lot of people “running bent”. Not to mention the whining from some about doing more than 40 on single carriage way roads which is nicking time and so therefore running bent. Where do you draw the line ■■?

For once I have some sympathy for Limeyphils point. The rigidity of the drivers hours can mean you taking breaks when not tired but having to crack on when you are. If you are on a long international journey for example you end up rotating from day to night shift in an effort to stay legal and minimise journey time. Personally I feel longer days and keeping your sleep patterns and circadian rhythms regular is a safer way. :wink:

It would be interesting if the police were to look at more than just the legality of the drivers involved in accidents. If they were to look at the regularity of his/her shifts as well as where he/she had been parked/run out of hours. I don’t do laybyes or cruddy parking, if needs be it goes on the card with an explanation. I’d sooner do a bit over to get a good feed and sound nights sleep than worry about “the clock” :unamused: :unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

^this^ has saved me a whole lot of typing :wink:

i’m glad i’m being pushed out of this industry in 2014.
it’s an industry of selfish, grassing, backstabbing, jobsworth tossers.
do some of you find it hard to breath, when you’re so far up vosa’s arse.

limeyphil:
i’m glad i’m being pushed out of this industry in 2014.
it’s an industry of selfish, grassing, backstabbing, jobsworth tossers.
do some of you find it hard to breath, when you’re so far up vosa’s arse.

Its not about being selfish as lightning has stressed this guy obviously isn’t a threat to his work

Its not about grassing as it could quite possibly be a matter of life or death. How would you feel if a trucker that was running bent ploughed into your loved ones car and seriously injured or killed them?

If I thought I could stop accidents happening then I’d ‘grass’ a driver running bent to VOSA everyday.

Law is of no value unless it is enforced and breaches carry sanctions. Those who do not report breaches they are aware of act to undermine that law, albeit in a very limited way. This allows people to take advantage of the laxity in enforcement to obtain commercial advantage.

Throughout my legal training, I have been taught to model companies as doing what is cheapest (or what makes the most money) irrespective of the law. Clearly this is a worst case scenario, but some companies do break the rules knowing that the likelihood of getting caught is low and the likelihood of anything other than financial penalties levied on the company is even lower. The worst cases do lead to public inquiry action against the O licence and/or the repute of the Transport Manager, but relatively few cases reach that point.

Most offences have a component known as mens rea - the guilty mind. You can only be guilty of murder if you intended to kill or cause serious harm by your actions; absent that intent, the most you can be guilty of is manslaughter (which has its own mens rea component). Traffic offences are typically strict liability - they have no mens rea component, so you are guilty on the facts alone. There may be defences possible in some cases - if you moved into a box junction and stopped to let an emergency vehicle on blues and twos past it may be decided that you are not guilty - but these are mostly discretionary. There are few absolute defences in traffic law.

This leads on to discretion. Clearly the police and VOSA need an element of discretion - there may be circumstances in which the offence was completely understandable or it would be unjust to prosecute. A prosecution for being 1% overweight on a bulk tipper where the load had been rained on since loading would not be in the public interest and would be manifestly unjust (especially as the weighbridge tolerance may explain the apparent excess weight).

Unfortunately, the greater the degree of discretion allowed, the greater the possibility of arbitrary decisions. Why should West Mercia Police let Billy go when he was 15 minutes short of his required daily rest when Devon and Cornwall Police let Alice go when she’s 30 minutes short of her required daily rest. If it was that PC Angus Nairn (for the sake of argument - he is with West Mercia, isn’t he?) was having a good day and the weather was fine, but the Devon and Cornwall officer was short on her targets for prosecutions and it was raining, the decisions were surely arbitrary and unjust.

There is a strong argument for limiting discretion so far as that is possible, so that the law is applied uniformly.

More generally, why are there legal limits on road traffic? Though individual rules may not make a particularly effective contribution, the overall aim of the majority of traffic law is safety. Compared to many countries in the world we have relatively safe roads, where the majority of drivers are properly qualified and insured, drive adequately maintained and safe vehicles that are safely loaded, and are not excessively tired or medically unfit.

There is always pressure to run bent, especially when drivers are paid on a piece work basis and companies are concerned about meeting customer demands with the lowest possible spend on vehicles, drivers, maintenance and fuel. This pressure is only increased by other operators who run bent - the more companies that run bent, the less competitive an operation that follows the rules can be.

I come down very much on the side of the rule of law and due process. Those that break the rules should know that there will get their chance to put their case, but they should nevertheless expect penalties to be forthcoming. This levels the playing field for everyone and acts to improve safety. Enforcement should be targeted at the most likely offenders - if intelligence and inspection results show lorries from particular countries are more likely to run bent, they should be targeted. However, the same standards should be applied to all.

If people are running bent, why should drivers collude in the deception. Is it not better for the road haulage industry as a whole if the police, VOSA and CPS go after those deliberately breaking the rules and compromising safety to obtain commercial advantage? Lives could depend on it - a driver nodding off or finding himself with inadequate time to break due to excess speed typically has much greater consequences when the vehicle in question is a 44t artic rather than a 1.5t car.

sydeakinwoods:

limeyphil:
i’m glad i’m being pushed out of this industry in 2014.
it’s an industry of selfish, grassing, backstabbing, jobsworth tossers.
do some of you find it hard to breath, when you’re so far up vosa’s arse.

Its not about being selfish as lightning has stressed this guy obviously isn’t a threat to his work

Its not about grassing as it could quite possibly be a matter of life or death. How would you feel if a trucker that was running bent ploughed into your loved ones car and seriously injured or killed them?

If I thought I could stop accidents happening then I’d ‘grass’ a driver running bent to VOSA everyday.

+1

Anyone stupid enough to believe that running bent is dangerous is obviously stupid enough to think running legal means they’re safe. It’s complete and utter ■■■■■■■■ and presumably it’s the same kind of numb nuts causing all the accidents. Hardly a week goes by when some motorway isn’t shut because of a British truck smashing into something in the night. Are all these Beans running bent now or is it just the fact that tacho laws have absolutely no bearing on safety.

A long distance driver who drives for 12 hours with a couple of 1 hour breaks is far safer than the multidrop driver doing a 15 hour shift. The tramper who takes 8 hours rest, but all of it on a bunk is far safer than the day driver taking a 9 hour rest at home. But according to the do gooders it’s only the bent driver who will be smashing into a school bus killing 10,000 childen.

sydeakinwoods:

limeyphil:
i’m glad i’m being pushed out of this industry in 2014.
it’s an industry of selfish, grassing, backstabbing, jobsworth tossers.
do some of you find it hard to breath, when you’re so far up vosa’s arse.

Its not about being selfish as lightning has stressed this guy obviously isn’t a threat to his work

Its not about grassing as it could quite possibly be a matter of life or death. How would you feel if a trucker that was running bent ploughed into your loved ones car and seriously injured or killed them?

If I thought I could stop accidents happening then I’d ‘grass’ a driver running bent to VOSA everyday.

just the same as if anyone had run into them.
in vosas book, a driver that takes 7.5 hours off, then carries on is dangerous.
but someone that travels home for 1.5 hours, then gets his dinner, jumps the wife, sleeps, then travels back to work. all within 9 hours is safe in vosas book. (all of 5 hours kip).

perhaps VOSA feels that a man who is getting ■■■■■■ satisfaction is a more relaxed driver :smiley:

that doesn’t mean that they will accept whacking one off in a lay bye as an alternative :smiley:

I’ve always thought you should only be able to do a 15 hour day away from base, as Limeyphil says, by the time you get home, eat,wash,get the knock back from the mrs for a jump :cry: its nearly time to get up again. Then if you have a look at uk domestic hours, 7 days per week 10 hours driving and 11 hours duty(doesn’t include breaks and theres none of this drive 4.5 hours ■■■■■■■■ and have 45min break) and they say thats safe so why the stupid regs on other driving!

I think apart from writing the rules down in a way that everyone can understand them the way i would change it is make it so you can only do a thirteen hour shift including nights as i dont see how its any different to during the day (i have worked nights before).I would do away with the wtd and say drivers were to have a 45 minute break after every four hours wether they have driven for the full four hours or not or split into a fifteen and a thirty minute break like the current rule.Keep it simple that way more chance of people understanding and getting things correct.

maurice:
Anyone stupid enough to believe that running bent is dangerous is obviously stupid enough to think running legal means they’re safe. It’s complete and utter ■■■■■■■■ and presumably it’s the same kind of numb nuts causing all the accidents. Hardly a week goes by when some motorway isn’t shut because of a British truck smashing into something in the night. Are all these Beans running bent now or is it just the fact that tacho laws have absolutely no bearing on safety.

A long distance driver who drives for 12 hours with a couple of 1 hour breaks is far safer than the multidrop driver doing a 15 hour shift. The tramper who takes 8 hours rest, but all of it on a bunk is far safer than the day driver taking a 9 hour rest at home. But according to the do gooders it’s only the bent driver who will be smashing into a school bus killing 10,000 childen.

Spot on.

(Thinking of the children too!) :laughing: :laughing:

There are far far too many people in this country who have something happen to them or a relative and then set up a foundation or charity in the name of the person affected by it. These outfits gain support through populist garbage media such as that dreadful ITV breakfast show, tabloid newspapers, women’s magazines and so on.

Woe betide the individual or organisation that dare criticise or even question them, or their myopic, zealous, listen-to-my-story-you’re-with-us-or-you’re-against-us, publicity craving approach to getting their message across. Can you imagine any trade organisation, haulier, govt official, disagreeing with BRAKE The (self-styled) road safety charity? Of course not, it would be commercial or political suicide.

Why? Because of the thousands of mugs who lap this rubbish up, tut at the newspaper and take it as fact.

So, we have legislation by media pressure as opposed to by debate and rational thinking. Sydeakinwoods’ earlier post, is an example of how this happens.

Come on people, leave the playground behind you and get on with your own lives.

Happydaze:

maurice:
Anyone stupid enough to believe that running bent is dangerous is obviously stupid enough to think running legal means they’re safe. It’s complete and utter ■■■■■■■■ and presumably it’s the same kind of numb nuts causing all the accidents. Hardly a week goes by when some motorway isn’t shut because of a British truck smashing into something in the night. Are all these Beans running bent now or is it just the fact that tacho laws have absolutely no bearing on safety.

A long distance driver who drives for 12 hours with a couple of 1 hour breaks is far safer than the multidrop driver doing a 15 hour shift. The tramper who takes 8 hours rest, but all of it on a bunk is far safer than the day driver taking a 9 hour rest at home. But according to the do gooders it’s only the bent driver who will be smashing into a school bus killing 10,000 childen.

Spot on.

(Thinking of the children too!) :laughing: :laughing:

There are far far too many people in this country who have something happen to them or a relative and then set up a foundation or charity in the name of the person affected by it. These outfits gain support through populist garbage media such as that dreadful ITV breakfast show, tabloid newspapers, women’s magazines and so on.

Woe betide the individual or organisation that dare criticise or even question them, or their myopic, zealous, listen-to-my-story-you’re-with-us-or-you’re-against-us, publicity craving approach to getting their message across. Can you imagine any trade organisation, haulier, govt official, disagreeing with BRAKE The (self-styled) road safety charity? Of course not, it would be commercial or political suicide.

Why? Because of the thousands of mugs who lap this rubbish up, tut at the newspaper and take it as fact.

So, we have legislation by media pressure as opposed to by debate and rational thinking. Sydeakinwoods’ earlier post, is an example of how this happens.

Come on people, leave the playground behind you and get on with your own lives.

you lot don’t half spout some crap

Or did I just read that wrong…too many big words :laughing:

sydeakinwoods:
Or did I just read that wrong…too many big words :laughing:

You read it wrong yes, hence the reason some members of the planet believe Eddie Stobart Trucks and Trailers is true life, and support BRAKE, Greenpeace and Vegetarianism.

No. there’s enough hypocrites out there the world don’t need another one, unless your willing to turn yourself in the next time you find yourself breaking the speed limit or other offences,