what speed were they doing ? seems pretty close to the puddle jumper in front. And I doubt he will have much view of what is happening in front of the box van.
Bluey Circles:
what speed were they doing ? seems pretty close to the puddle jumper in front. And I doubt he will have much view of what is happening in front of the box van.
Already answered…
happysack:
truckman020:
happysack:
Well I wouldn’t fancy hitting the brakes!
agree with that,he would get it from both ends being close to the wagon in front
The wagon in front was moving into his lane. He was going slow but the rigid was a lot faster.
eddie snax:
robroy:
eddie snax:
And don’t think that I’m opposed to the DCPC, because I’m not, I think it should involve an exam to make truly worth somethingThen there WOULD be a driver shortage. Not being funny but a lot of drivers are not what you would call academically proficient shall we say, so would find an examination scenario quite difficult.
That does not say that they are bad drivers btw.That’s a good point, I hadn’t fully thought that one through
It just annoys Me that these so called trainers, are often as not, just reciting text from a book. Luckily, I’ve had the good fortune to do several DCPC days with Don Hunter at Ipswich, now there is a bloke who knows what he’s talking about
Ok - I mention DCPC and I’m immediately some useless twonk who just reads from a book. of course you must be right.
Experience really is a wonderful thing but I really do think a knowledge of theory is needed as well. When I joined the Army they didn’t just give me a gun - they showed me how it worked first. As I trained as a heavy vehicle mechanic they taught me theory and then practical skills to put the theory into practice. That theory knowledge allowed me to tackle mechanical jobs I’d never done on complicated vehicles I’d never seen before and work things out.
When it comes to load securing a very large number of drivers have never been given any information and simply guessed how to do it. Alternatively they may have copied someone else or been shown by someone else. This is fine and when the load gets from A to B they think they are doing it right.
Unfortunately many drivers discover the hard way that the load CAN move when the wrong circumstances occur. I have had this myself with a heavy load moving and I had no idea at all how it moved. As far as I was concerned there were enough straps, they were tighter than tight etc etc but then it still moved. I couldn’t learn from that because I couldn’t understand what went wrong.
At some point I attended a load securing course covering the EN12195 standard. The information given made it all make sense and I could think back to loads I had seen shift and suddenly see exactly why they did. Those experiences and theory put together mean I would secure loads in a different way now - with more knowledge.
Some of what drivers say about load securing is completely at odds with recognised best practice advice, recognised British and European standards and plenty of studies and reports … So does that mean those drivers actually know more than ‘industry experts’? Some of these industry experts have actually tried these things under controlled experiments and trials and proven what they say.
All I try to do with this boring old DCPC is pass that knowledge over and discuss it with drivers who may or may not be experienced. By the end of the day it’ll help them or it won’t.
I guess it’s like religion. I live next to a church and watch the ‘believers’ file in every Sunday … Makes no sense to me but it does to them. Maybe they know something I don’t.
I would be a little concerned with the lateral stability of the load, if the straps are simply going over top of both stacks of concrete, what is to stop the top most concrete beam moving inwards, it would only have to budge half an inch inwards (pot hole on a camber) and the strap would loose all of its tension.
I just can’t see that load staying where it is in a big collision, I would have wanted that braced against the headboard with heavy wood and braced with wood in-between the stacks. I would also like chain, providing the chain was compressing against wood on the top and directly above the wooded spaces between the beams then it should be fine. Although as others have said, two or three straps close to each other would be pretty strong.
Anyway, @Shep532 - how would you have secured it.
Well it will not be again as the owner of said lorry has unfortunately passed away and his son has finished the business .
Bluey Circles:
Anyway, @Shep532 - how would you have secured it.
Based on the limited view we have and I am guessing the weight as around 3t each piece (this is probably over estimated but that means the load will be even more secure). And I am guessing there are 6 pieces ignoring the little one at the front. (I can’t see properly on my phone)
I would like it all against the headboard and no gaps running longitudinal in the middle. If there has to be a gap I would want to block it with timber.
Of course axle weights are likely to prevent it being placed against the headboard. Therefore we will agree it needs to be placed where it is for weight distribution. However - whether it is 12" or 48" from the headboard makes no difference. If possible I would block the gap to the headboard with timber upto the height of the load.
Let’s work on worst case - I can’t block it to the headboard.
I would want my batons/skids to be wider than they are tall - but I wouldn’t stack them to get the required fork/lifting gap. I would also use some spanset friction matting at 0.6 coefficient of friction between the skids and concrete.
I would use ‘spring’ lashings to prevent forward movement. The straps used appear to be LC2500. I need to secure the load to 0.8g forward making 14.4t. That would mean a combination of 6 straps - that’s no good so I’d want some bigger straps, 75mm webbing at LC5000. I would use 4 of those (HOWEVER - because of the friction matting I could reduce the number of straps to 2 but I won’t) ensuring the angle to the load bed wasnt over 45 degrees. I’d also ensure the straps were all of equal capacity and length (by staggering the lashing points - for which it would need to be the chassis as standard 2000kg lashing points are not up to the job). I would protect the straps from the product with a strap sleeve etc. I’d also like some 1/2 inch ply to put behind the straps to make sure they act evenly across the ends of the panels - but that’s just me being fussy.
That takes care of forward movement.
Because of the friction matting I would only need 2 top-over lashings at STF300daN to prevent sideways movement but I would use 4 equally spaced along the load ensuring they were in line with the skids if at all possible. Although if I’m using my big LC5000 straps that have an STF of 750daN then 2 would be plenty. Of course straps would be protected by at least sleeves if not proper corner protectors.
I’d also want a TFI (tension force indicator) on each end of my straps. If you buy Spanset these can be specified at minimal extra cost. This way I can make sure I have equal tension to each side.
For rearwards - because of the friction material, stability of the skids and straps already used The rear is actually OK but I would use 2 spring lashings to the rear. These would also ‘counter’ the spring lashings used at the front.
And now I’ve done all that, I’ll stop for a daily rest and take it tomorrow. 
Of course someone’s going to say"we don’t have friction matting and we don’t have big straps" - to which I’d query why not when you move blocks of concrete? That’s like a mechanic not having a 22mm combination spanner and trying to use an adjustable - it’ll work most of the time then - oops … There go my knuckles as it rounds off the head of the bolt and slips
OK - the above is one scenario. It would not take THAT much longer to secure it in this manner and I would be absolutely confident the load could not move and should Mr DVSA take a look he’d shake my hand. I also wouldn’t be spending as much time watching the load in the mirrors and Incould concentrate on the idiots to the front. Oh and if had to anchor on … Well I wouldn’t be listening for that god awful sound of concrete sliding on concrete 
Or risking life and limb to sort it out once it has moved.
Of course I may be way over with my weight estimation - I’m ok with that. Or - let’s say it’s half the weight. I’d still use the 4 top-over lashings but only 2 Spring to the front and 1 to the rear.
Personally - the friction matting and correct size/shape skids are the making of this load being properly secure. Oh - and an understanding of different lashing types and capacities of the straps.
I stand by to be insulted and laughed at. But I’m used to that - I’m a DCPC trainer 
Punchy Dan:
Well it will not be again as the owner of said lorry has unfortunately passed away and his son has finished the business .
That’s a real shame that they have finished as they seemed to have a work out where this load proberbly came from locally to us .
I pull loads like this most of the time out of smilar precast supplier and have for the last 2 years before then I had no previous experience with such product but it’s like anything treat it with respect and abit of common sense and it causes u no problems! The said load in this thread I would secure it with 3 straps over the pieces on the front of the trailer and proberbly 6-8 on the larger slabs on the rear strapping as close to the batons as possible with 3-4 straps on each end and not in the middle of slab to allow it to flex ! Also I would use either edge protection is corner boards or sleeved straps to stop the straps from cutting as hollow ore slabs will cut your straps depending on how rough they are finished.
Thing is we can all say how we would secure this as we all are armchair experts here !! 
but we don’t actually know the weight of this product I would say the larger slabs are 150-200 MM. depth slabs so would be around 1.5 ton ish possibly?? There not as heavy as u think ! And loads like this are the norm out of where I work as every load isn’t uniform like a palletised load say etc and also the load has to positioned on the trailer for axle weight combinations and to make it ride nicely ! And sometimes to make it easier to get into a muddy site ! As that can be fun and games at times !
I think down at bison there’s a strict procedure to strapping so many together at the front and back too.
Punchy Dan:
I think down at bison there’s a strict procedure to strapping so many together at the front and back too.
Yeh that’s the 1 at Bison but nothing to major to be honest u just don’t get out of the gate if it’s not to te satisfaction of the rules it’s the same across the board at other sites we work out off some are even tighter with it ! it’s no worse than anywhere else these days that seem to have smiliar rules and regs as a lot of people have seemed to tighten up on it recently especially the brick and block hauliers and manufacturers I’ve heard down the grapevine some concrete pipe companies are getting tight on it too .
alix776:
What’s the problem there’s enough straps the only issue is that the top layer is above the head board so you’d take that in to account while driving its not like you could use a chain on it.
problem from what I see is he is driving too close,he would not have a hope in hell of stopping in time if the vehicle in front done an emergency stop
Greggo:
[ I pull loads like this most of the time out of smilar precast supplier and have for the last 2 years before then I had no previous experience with such product but it’s like anything treat it with respect and abit of common sense and it causes u no problems! The said load in this thread I would secure it with 3 straps over the pieces on the front of the trailer and proberbly 6-8 on the larger slabs on the rear strapping as close to the batons as possible with 3-4 straps on each end and not in the middle of slab to allow it to flex ! Also I would use either edge protection is corner boards or sleeved straps to stop the straps from cutting as hollow ore slabs will cut your straps depending on how rough they are finished.Thing is we can all say how we would secure this as we all are armchair experts here !!
That’s sounds a lot more like the we used to strap this stuff when I and many others at a firm I used to work for were on this type of work And i mentioned earlier that they aren’t as heavy as they look.
shep532:
eddie snax:
[It just annoys Me that these so called trainers, are often as not, just reciting text from a book. Luckily, I’ve had the good fortune to do several DCPC days with Don Hunter at Ipswich, now there is a bloke who knows what he’s talking about
Ok - I mention DCPC and I’m immediately some useless twonk who just reads from a book. of course you must be right.
Experience really is a wonderful thing but I really do think a knowledge of theory is needed as well.
All I try to do with this boring old DCPC is pass that knowledge over and discuss it with drivers who may or may not be experienced. By the end of the day it’ll help them or it won’t.
.
Whether you are useless twonk who just reads from a book, I could not possibly comment on, as I’ve never met you, or been DCPC with you. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Experience really is a wonderful thing, but it does have to be kept up to date with new methods of working, and I have no complaint with that, and the DCPC is one way of delivering that information. But I do not just listen to all this new standards and practices, and just accept it without putting it through My own personal scrutiny, which is were I find which trainers are the bluffers or the do’ers,
If you are a trainer who can discuss, and explain how and why methods, in this instnce for load securing have changed, that’s fine, But it don’t mean to say I’m going to agree with you, because experience tells me (with reference to your load securing post) that there is a certain amount of over kill going on.
`
truckman020:
problem from what I see is he is driving too close,he would not have a hope in hell of stopping in time if the vehicle in front done an emergency stop
happysack:
[The wagon in front was moving into his lane. He was going slow but the rigid was a lot faster.
Give the lad a chance reset the distance, you know what some of these muppets are like, take the bugs of your window so keen are they to get back to the left lane.
shep532:
eddie snax:
robroy:
eddie snax:
And don’t think that I’m opposed to the DCPC, because I’m not, I think it should involve an exam to make truly worth somethingThen there WOULD be a driver shortage. Not being funny but a lot of drivers are not what you would call academically proficient shall we say, so would find an examination scenario quite difficult.
That does not say that they are bad drivers btw.That’s a good point, I hadn’t fully thought that one through
It just annoys Me that these so called trainers, are often as not, just reciting text from a book. Luckily, I’ve had the good fortune to do several DCPC days with Don Hunter at Ipswich, now there is a bloke who knows what he’s talking about
All I try to do with this boring old DCPC is pass that knowledge over and discuss it with drivers who may or may not be experienced. By the end of the day it’ll help them or it won’t.
I guess it’s like religion. I live next to a church and watch the ‘believers’ file in every Sunday … Makes no sense to me but it does to them. Maybe they know something I don’t.
Not really a surprise to find DCPC trainers are going to hell.
Going back to the photo, it’s unbelievable how many people drive far too close.
The first lorry passes me and at a safe distance I flash him in. The second lorry passes me and he’s that close, I’m thinking he’s overtaking the first lorry, so I don’t flash. He pulls in feet away from the first lorry. It’s madness. 
eddie snax:
',
If you are a trainer who can discuss, and explain how and why methods, in this instnce for load securing have changed, that’s fine, But it don’t mean to say I’m going to agree with you, because experience tells me (with reference to your load securing post) that there is a certain amount of over kill going on.
`
The whole idea from my point of view is to put across my point explaining all of the reasons, theories, figures. I then ask if anyone can challenge any of the this and actually explain why I am wrong. I can demonstrate all of my points via recognised research. Often I’ll get the “Just because I’ve always done it this way and so has everyone else” response. Like the lad who carries 8 reels of paper, on end, in a curtain at 2.5t a reel and 8" tall with NO securing at all and says they won’t move because they haven’t yet.
I often get a driver say “I’ve always done it like that and it worked”. If I ask did he ever have to stamp on the brakes or swerve the answer is likely to be no - so in other words he doesn’t ‘know’ whether the securing works or not.
Often as humans we have to learn by trial. “Caution wet paint” is usually accompanied by people touching it to see. In the chip shop on the display “Caution hot surface”. Now stand and watch people touch it to see how hot. Until we learn the hard way many don’t learn. That is the whole principal behind Risk Assessment.
Anyway - I pass my information and my thoughts to the people on the course - they choose what to do with it. I am not asserting my opinions, I am passing on recognised information from official sources. They can then choose - Take it on board, consider it next load or ignore it and carry on as they are. I really enjoy the conversations we get into. The amount of times drivers tell me that no matter what you do the load will shift … The amount of drivers I meet who have had shifted loads, and the amount I meet that carry loads behind curtains that are not secured at all. Worries me and shows the industry has a lack of knowledge.
As for “over kill” - What is wrong with over kill? I am sure the front wheel of your truck doesn’t need all 10 wheel nuts and 5 evenly spread and torqued would do it. There is always an element of “over kill” in design and load safety needs that. The over kill designed into BSEN 12195-1 load securing standard allows for a degree of settling of the load and therefore loss of strap tension. It allows for the 4% - 7% stretch in webbing. It allows for me having less muscles than you when tensioning straps. It allows for G forces that we really should never experience on the road. 0.8G is a full on stamp on the brakes at 30 - 40 Kph … Oh, that could happen couldn’t it■■?
So we are back to you do what you think is needed, I’ll do what I think is needed and some will do hat they see others do without even applying their own thoughts. Monkey see - Monkey do
what is the goal in securing a load? should the load remain attached to the trailer no matter what, in the example in this thread; in a serious accident and roll over should the load be expected to stay on the trailer? at what point would failure of the straps be thought of as ‘fair enough’
Bluey Circles:
what is the goal in securing a load? should the load remain attached to the trailer no matter what, in the example in this thread; in a serious accident and roll over should the load be expected to stay on the trailer? at what point would failure of the straps be thought of as ‘fair enough’
The expectation is that the load should be secured to 0.8G forwards and 0.5G sideways and backwards. This would equate to an all out emergency brake or swerve. After an emergency brake the load will often shift backwards with up to 0.5G.
The guidance available does not suggest a load needs to withstand a roll over or indeed collision which wouldn’t be considered normal driving conditions. In fact in a collision some cabs would come off due to shear pins/mounts. Other parts of the vehicle may also not withstand a collision or roll over and come adrift.
Because the code of practice is accepted in a court of law as being correct, if we have achieved 0.8 and 0.5 respectively then we can defend the outcome. Or alternatively the prosecution can show your load was not secure. If it slid forward under braking - well it wasn’t secured to best practice.
shep532:
Bluey Circles:
what is the goal in securing a load? should the load remain attached to the trailer no matter what, in the example in this thread; in a serious accident and roll over should the load be expected to stay on the trailer? at what point would failure of the straps be thought of as ‘fair enough’The expectation is that the load should be secured to 0.8G forwards and 0.5G sideways and backwards. This would equate to an all out emergency brake or swerve. After an emergency brake the load will often shift backwards with up to 0.5G.
The guidance available does not suggest a load needs to withstand a roll over or indeed collision which wouldn’t be considered normal driving conditions. In fact in a collision some cabs would come off due to shear pins/mounts. Other parts of the vehicle may also not withstand a collision or roll over and come adrift.
Because the code of practice is accepted in a court of law as being correct, if we have achieved 0.8 and 0.5 respectively then we can defend the outcome. Or alternatively the prosecution can show your load was not secure. If it slid forward under braking - well it wasn’t secured to best practice.
Interesting stuff, I did not know there was specifics. 0.8g seems very low figure. 56mph → 0 in 3.2secs or 40 metres. OK that is probably outwith the capabilities of most trucks, but if the heavy breaking involved a shunt then I suspect 0.8g would easily be exceeded.
shep532:
eddie snax:
',
If you are a trainer who can discuss, and explain how and why methods, in this instnce for load securing have changed, that’s fine, But it don’t mean to say I’m going to agree with you, because experience tells me (with reference to your load securing post) that there is a certain amount of over kill going on.
`The whole idea from my point of view is to put across my point explaining all of the reasons, theories, figures. I then ask if anyone can challenge any of the this and actually explain why I am wrong. I can demonstrate all of my points via recognised research. Often I’ll get the “Just because I’ve always done it this way and so has everyone else” response. Like the lad who carries 8 reels of paper, on end, in a curtain at 2.5t a reel and 8" tall with NO securing at all and says they won’t move because they haven’t yet.
wink:
It is 8 years since I did any curtainsider or flat work, but even then all the Paper Mills I loaded at, wouldn’t let you out, if the reels weren’t strapped to the standard that they expected, so I’m surprised but not shocked that there are drivers still going out with reels unsecured.
With regard to the load in the OP, though it was some 20 years ago when I was shown by our yard shunter, how to secure the concrete pads that we delivered, I’m happy that those methods would still stand firm today. They were in no way as techicaly researched as how you’ve explained it, and we did not load to the head board, and did not brace the load to the headboard, but I worked for that general haulier for 10 years, and they worked for that customer for all that period of time. I cant recall a single incident, where they shed any of that particular customers work, or remember hearing on the drivers grapevine, that driver A B or C had had a load shifted. I don’t believe that in at least 10 years, and many loads of concrete pads being transported, that if the standard of load security wasn’t good enough, that someone wouldn’t have come unstuck at one point.
I will concede to you, that there is a massive lack of understanding about load security, and this is possibly the fault of an industry, that doesn’t have the will to train drivers anymore. In this, I include having a yard shunter, who’d show you how to rope and sheet, the way the gaffer wanted it. I also include having in house workshops, where you could pick up useful knowledge about the mechanics of your truck, and how to put it right, on a quiet Wednesday, when you truck was being serviced.
Because of this, there is a need for something like the DCPC, and probably we’d get on all right, but I would have to disagree with you over this.