Punchy Dan:
The standards could be improved in the photo but it’s not like it’s a load of steel is it ?
Apart from a slightly lower coefficient of friction what would be the difference? 1000kg of concrete will dent the dab as much as 1000kg steel - wouldn’t it?
Beau Nydel:
Going back to the headboard thing, you don’t load tight to it cos you got to get the lifting straps on for the crane offload. Like I said multi straps at each end and the weight and friction does the rest. Only those who haven’t done it don’t understand.
It looks a lot worse than it is!
15 years ago and more, I was working for a general haulier who had a full time contract delivering this type of concrete floor, and the block and beam flooring aswell, and I whole heartedly agree with you, though I did my best to allways stay on Tilt work, because I’m inherently lazy, and you only had to strip a tilt once in 5 or 6 tips, where as a flat needs serious work all the time 
I notice that the first strap goes up at an angle, this shows that the middle pad is nearer to the head board, than the on in view on the side, also shows that that is not one large pad on top, but probably 3 side by side 
and don’t forget, those pads are hollow, and don’t weigh as much as they look. The firm I mentioned earlier, had quite a few tandem flats on the job, with 4 wheel units pulling them, so max gross 32ton. A tandem can be a better beast to drag around a muddy building site
shep532:
Punchy Dan:
The standards could be improved in the photo but it’s not like it’s a load of steel is it ?Apart from a slightly lower coefficient of friction what would be the difference? 1000kg of concrete will dent the dab as much as 1000kg steel - wouldn’t it?
Concrete would move a lot slower due to the friction and yes possibly dent the cab but steel will move so fast it would come through the cab .
Punchy Dan:
shep532:
Punchy Dan:
The standards could be improved in the photo but it’s not like it’s a load of steel is it ?Apart from a slightly lower coefficient of friction what would be the difference? 1000kg of concrete will dent the dab as much as 1000kg steel - wouldn’t it?
Concrete would move a lot slower due to the friction and yes possibly dent the cab but steel will move so fast it would come through the cab .
whole heartedly agree with that, having had it happen. 24 tonnes oiled tube,middle of leicester, van pulled out in front and stopped across the carriageway, 1 big bang , and the top middle bundle of steel came through the back window and stopped just short of the radio
1985 , c series erf, geezer thought i was turning left , but i’d got no indicators going, judge went 60/40 in my favour after my boss took him to court.
Punchy Dan:
shep532:
Punchy Dan:
The standards could be improved in the photo but it’s not like it’s a load of steel is it ?Apart from a slightly lower coefficient of friction what would be the difference? 1000kg of concrete will dent the dab as much as 1000kg steel - wouldn’t it?
Concrete would move a lot slower due to the friction and yes possibly dent the cab but steel will move so fast it would come through the cab .
Unfortunately Once the static friction is broken there won’t be much difference between 1t of steel and 1t of concrete once it is moving. The secret is to stop it moving first because stopping it once it’s on the move gets harder the heavier it is.
Yes you are right most steel will slide easier and further than most concrete because of the friction. Steel on steel can be as little as 0.1 whereas smooth concrete on smooth concrete could be 0.3 upwards, rough concrete 0.4 or above.
I think one of the issues in the original picture is the wooden batons and lack of sufficient downward force from the straps. Under hard braking they would roll over. That is the same as no friction. The product would be on the move and take quite some stopping.
I think it’s a case of until it happens you just can’t see it. I have definitly learnt the hard way and combined with a bit of further education and research completely changed how I look at load securing.
Cant see what the problem is we used to haul stuff like that with just ropes over them. Only time it ever moved was when the wooden batons rolled over gave me a bit of a shock because i thought the tanker behind had run into me then I saw all me ropes slack and in the pouring rain had to retie the lot never moved again. Even straps are not the tie and forget used to haul timber from Oxford to Rochdale through the night and you had to stop a few times and make sure they were still tight very often they would come loose.
At the end of the day most flat work is down to experience, gut instinct and seat of the pants feel for the job which is why it is too much for some people. On the other hand when containers first became common we used to rope em down cos there was no way them little twistlocks was going to hold 20 tons on!
Trucker56:
Cant see what the problem is we used to haul stuff like that with just ropes over them. Only time it ever moved was when the wooden batons rolled over gave me a bit of a shock because i thought the tanker behind had run into me then I saw all me ropes slack and in the pouring rain had to retie the lot never moved again. Even straps are not the tie and forget used to haul timber from Oxford to Rochdale through the night and you had to stop a few times and make sure they were still tight very often they would come loose.
I can’t understand how you can say you don’t see what the problem is - then tell us exactly what the problem is when the batons rolled. 
They rolled because they were the wrong shape/size and because of insufficient tension in the ropes/straps which is exactly what we have in the OPs picture. Batons must be twice as wide as they are tall - they won’t roll then. I see so many square batons in use - let’s face it, a square baton isn’t far from being a wheel … It’ll roll.
You mention having to stop a few times to tighten straps. That isn’t because the straps came loose - it was because the load shifts because the straps weren’t sufficient. If you follow recognised guidance you end up n a position where straps won’t need retightening mid journey because although they may ‘settle’ there will still be sufficient tension to hold the load.
Drivers have died retensioning straps in inappropriate places. I knew an 83 year old bloke who was hit by a young lad in his ‘souped up corsa’ as he tried to tighten his straps at the side of the road. Almost cut in half by the impact. If the straps were right at the start or he hadn’t taken the load he’d be 85 years old and not scattered across his field by his two sons.
I honestly despair at what I see out on the roads.
shep532:
. Batons must be twice as wide as they are tall - they won’t roll then. I see so many square batons in use - let’s face it, a square baton isn’t far from being a wheel … It’ll roll..
Behave, a 3" square is 4 and a quarter inches corner to corner, that’s approximately 40% increase in length, I hope I never have to travel on a wheel like that 
We were using 3" square bearers on those type of pads and block and beam all the while, true you need to get the straps tight, and preferably use something on the corners to protect the straps, but otherwise, square bearers all the way
I still stand by what I said before. Secure the bloody things so they don’t start moving in the first place.
eddie snax:
shep532:
. Batons must be twice as wide as they are tall - they won’t roll then. I see so many square batons in use - let’s face it, a square baton isn’t far from being a wheel … It’ll roll..
Behave, a 3" square is 4 and a quarter inches corner to corner, that’s approximately 40% increase in length, I hope I never have to travel on a wheel like that
We were using 3" square bearers on those type of pads and block and beam all the while, true you need to get the straps tight, and preferably use something on the corners to protect the straps, but otherwise, square bearers all the way
OK I’ll meet you half way and say if it is twice as wide as it is tall it WILL NOT roll or tip over. If it is square it COULD roll or tip over. If it is taller than it is wide it WILL roll or tip over. Of course the wider it is the better the friction contact in the first place.
I will agree square bearers would be OK if the straps supply sufficient down force … sometimes that would take far more straps than people think.
End of the day it is mainly down to how the vehicle is driven. I work on the principal of prepare for the worst, a momentary lapse in concentration as I check the satnav or try to dial a number on the phone, or even glance at the legs on show in the car alongside, I look up and ‘■■■■’ - hit the brakes. Or maybe I just judge that bend/corner wrong and go into it to fast - choice is brake and risk the load shifting or keep going and risk the load shifting … at that point it is probably a no win situation.
switchlogic:
alix776:
Does it matter if you wouldn’t take it did it fall off ■■? Honestly find a new hobby and concentrate on what your doing rather what others areHere here. What with videos and pictures these days everyone seems to be permanently trying to trip others up.
To be fair he hasn’t identified the co, registration, embarrased the driver or dropped him in it, he has just put it up for opinions and discussion.
I thought that was the idea of a forum 
I would maybe have pulled straps through between row 2 and 3, maybe a single strap between 1 and 2 if I did not like the look of it, and double strapped the rest using protectors.
Had these before on trombones, and as long as you don’t drive like a ■■■■ and avoid a hard brake situation, no probs…so far anyway.
I take lots of pictures of loads whilst I am out and about and use them as examples of good or bad in DCPC load safety courses.
I always photoshop the company names and reg numbers out, or if it would be too easy to identify the haulier etc I don’t use them.
Unfortunately I get more pictures of ‘bad’ than I do ‘good’ 
The OP’s original picture has already been used in a course this week
The battens we used were not square they were rectagular double stacked so we could get forks under them and with all the loads we moved it only ever happened once and no fear of them falling off. As for the timber it wouldnt matter how tight the straps were wood always moved slightly on the loads we carried and the straps will work loose all of my stops were done at services where they were checked and re tightened if necessary as a professional driver for many years I have always checked any load when stopped in a safe place and re tightened or adjusted as required. Bear in mind we didnt have straps then and couldnt use chains for fear of damaging the product and they were not necessary anyway.
As far as the pic is concerned whats the problem they are strapped down securely and on battens so they can be offloaded I would may be consider putting the longs ones against the headboard but then that moves all the weight forward and somehow even under heavy braking I cant see that lot going to far.
robroy:
switchlogic:
alix776:
Does it matter if you wouldn’t take it did it fall off ■■? Honestly find a new hobby and concentrate on what your doing rather what others areHere here. What with videos and pictures these days everyone seems to be permanently trying to trip others up.
To be fair he hasn’t identified the co, registration, embarrased the driver or dropped him in it, he has just put it up for opinions and discussion.
I thought that was the idea of a forumI would maybe have pulled straps through between row 2 and 3, maybe a single strap between 1 and 2 if I did not like the look of it, and double strapped the rest using protectors.
Had these before on trombones, and as long as you don’t drive like a ■■■■ and avoid a hard brake situation, no probs…so far anyway.
If the company or driver was identifiable then I wouldn’t have posted. As said it was posted for discussion. I’m sure if it was a stobart wagon it would have been a load of abuse directed at stobart/dozy.
Personally I would have had the load against the headboard.
I didn’t post the picture to deliberately trip anyone up. Sorry to disappoint you lord Vernon
shep532:
eddie snax:
shep532:
. Batons must be twice as wide as they are tall - they won’t roll then. I see so many square batons in use - let’s face it, a square baton isn’t far from being a wheel … It’ll roll..
Behave, a 3" square is 4 and a quarter inches corner to corner, that’s approximately 40% increase in length, I hope I never have to travel on a wheel like that
We were using 3" square bearers on those type of pads and block and beam all the while, true you need to get the straps tight, and preferably use something on the corners to protect the straps, but otherwise, square bearers all the way
OK I’ll meet you half way and say if it is twice as wide as it is tall it WILL NOT roll or tip over. If it is square it COULD roll or tip over. If it is taller than it is wide it WILL roll or tip over. Of course the wider it is the better the friction contact in the first place.
I will agree square bearers would be OK if the straps supply sufficient down force … sometimes that would take far more straps than people think.
.
I can only speak from experience, and the Concrete company we did this work for, supplied 3" square bearers, as many as you wanted, new on a pallet by the checkers office, supplied to them from a local saw mill. Never did any of our guys have any problems doing this work, using those bearers, and straps. Most of the lads would protect the straps on the corners. Short lengths of Potatoe bulker belt were mostly used, but old work gloves, were a suitable alternative when needed, and to this day, I still don’t chuck My old gloves away, even though I’ve been on boxes for 8 years, got loads of them .
I did have a foot long bar, that I’d got our fitters to weld a short piece of flat metal to one end. With this through the rachet handle for extra leveridge, you could snap a dodgy strap, as it would apply so much tension. I had this mainly for strapping stacked trailers that we used to move. Another way to get extra tension, take the loose end of strap, loop it through the rachet handle and pull, you can get more force on the rachet like that
shep532:
I take lots of pictures of loads whilst I am out and about and use them as examples of good or bad in DCPC load safety courses.Unfortunately I get more pictures of ‘bad’ than I do ‘good’
This is why so many Drivers come out of DCPC feeling like they have just been told how to ■■■■ eggs . What experience do you have in the transportation of concrete pads 
Theory is fine, but its only theory. No doubt you would have had on the DCPC drivers who have had many years experience
on flat beds, and to man they will just reject what you are saying, and then reject every thing else that you say.
And don’t think that I’m opposed to the DCPC, because I’m not, I think it should involve an exam to make truly worth something
eddie snax:
And don’t think that I’m opposed to the DCPC, because I’m not, I think it should involve an exam to make truly worth something
Then there WOULD be a driver shortage. Not being funny but a lot of drivers are not what you would call academically proficient shall we say, so would find an examination scenario quite difficult.
That does not say that they are bad drivers btw.
robroy:
eddie snax:
And don’t think that I’m opposed to the DCPC, because I’m not, I think it should involve an exam to make truly worth somethingThen there WOULD be a driver shortage. Not being funny but a lot of drivers are not what you would call academically proficient shall we say, so would find an examination scenario quite difficult.
That does not say that they are bad drivers btw.
That’s a good point, I hadn’t fully thought that one through
It just annoys Me that these so called trainers, are often as not, just reciting text from a book. Luckily, I’ve had the good fortune to do several DCPC days with Don Hunter at Ipswich, now there is a bloke who knows what he’s talking about