Thing is, you could do a 4 hour drive and take 9 hours off, then do another 9 hour drive with a 45 mins off in the middle and you’ve done 2 driving periods in 24 hours legally. Yes this has little to do with driving periods… or does it in the opinion of posters here?
So in my earlier example on this thread, (1 hour drive/duty then 11 hours rest), you would have racked up 6 hours driving over 3 days all with full 11 hour rests and you would be due a weekly rest?
I am going to be very interested in the correct answer from an expert.
PS, I might as well ask the questions to have answered here by those in the know who seem to be confusing me, as I said, I obv have no idea. I apologise that this thread has somewhat strayed from the original point. I suppose thats discussion forums for you though.
I also understand the situation with people giving out duff advice lately.
zippy!:
Thing is, you could do a 4 hour drive and take 9 hours off, then do another 9 hour drive with a 45 mins off in the middle and you’ve done 2 driving periods in 24 hours legally. Yes this has little to do with driving periods… or does it in the opinion of posters here?
So in my earlier example on this thread, (1 hour drive/duty then 11 hours rest), you would have racked up 6 hours driving over 3 days all with full 11 hour rests and you would be due a weekly rest?
Not according to VOSA’s take on it, you can do that as many times as you can provided you start your weekly rest no later than 144 hours from when the previous one ended. However, I wouldn’t try that over the water as they may, or do, take a different view. On a previous occasion when this was discussed I asked a couple of Belgian coppers in Jabbeke services, if there isn’t one there when you go looking just wait by the coffee machine and one will turn up, and they said 6 shifts then weekly rest. I also asked another Belgian copper in the snack bar at Gentbrugge and he said the same. I feel the French and Spanish may not agree with the VOSA take on things either but if you do UK only fill your boots.
dambuster:
I’m begining to wonder how ridiculous, or not, would be the question “Is something lost in translation ?”
It’s not, the translations all say the same thing, well at least the German one I’ve read and the French and Dutch versions I’ve seen. It’s down to the 6x24 hour periods where the different take on things comes in.
dambuster:
I’m begining to wonder how ridiculous, or not, would be the question “Is something lost in translation ?”
Thats the thing with EU directives etc. It is up to each member state to interpret the rules themselves. They can also make them more stringent, but cannot relax them, an easy one is cabotage, in France, if you move a load internally (cabotage) then if there are three drops from that load, all three cabotage operations have been carried out, in the uk one loaded trailer full of groupage woulfd be one cabotage journey. I am not sure if this is the case with drivers hours, but I know in the discussed circumstances drivers from the countries coffee mentioned will run out sunday night and back saturday morning on their 7th “card”.
There is an organisation called ECR who are trying to work on harmonisation of enforcement processes to do with transport, ie drivers hours. It will take a long time, they have been working on it for 10+ years and made progress but it will be a long time, if ever this harmonisation happens. (Another point to note here is they have a disproportionate fines complaints desk through their website for info).
bloodoodle:
What is it about a Drivers Hours question that brings about a willy waving session among a few posters?
Because until VOSA stop issuing bum advice its almost impossible to answer a weekly rest question with any certainty. If they are going to allow people to drive round and do 7 shifts in six days, thats fine. We now know that. What happens when some guy takes on a sixth shift for some overtime and it falls foul of VOSA’s 144 hour limit thing? And he then gets a fine for it? What would you advise him to do, take notice of the law or VOSA’s guidance notes,contest it, go to court? I’d of thought it might of been a question you would be interested to know the answer to. But then it depends upon whether people just regurgitate the VOSA book and its ‘examples’ or they look at what the law actually says.
Mike-C:
What happens when some guy takes on a sixth shift for some overtime and it falls foul of VOSA’s 144 hour limit thing?
How can that happen ?
Even if you could only work for a maximum of six shifts as you believe, the maximum time before needing a weekly rest would still be 144 hours from the end of the last weekly rest period
bloodoodle:
What is it about a Drivers Hours question that brings about a willy waving session among a few posters?
Because until VOSA stop issuing bum advice its almost impossible to answer a weekly rest question with any certainty. If they are going to allow people to drive round and do 7 shifts in six days, thats fine. We now know that. What happens when some guy takes on a sixth shift for some overtime and it falls foul of VOSA’s 144 hour limit thing? And he then gets a fine for it? What would you advise him to do, take notice of the law or VOSA’s guidance notes,contest it, go to court? I’d of thought it might of been a question you would be interested to know the answer to. But then it depends upon whether people just regurgitate the VOSA book and its ‘examples’ or they look at what the law actually says.
It does say inside the cover of the VOSA hours guides:
This publication gives general guidance only and should not be regarded as a complete or authoritative statement of the law. The guidance will be updated to reflect any developments in new legislation or case law.
If you wish to check the legal position, you should refer to the main legislation listed in Annex 1 and, if necessary, seek your own legal advice. The guidance offered in this publication reflects VOSA’s current enforcement policy. It does not reflect interpretation of the law in other countries.
The thing is, VOSA will have to keep giving “bum advice” as you say, as a court wont give anybody any. Do drivers turn to the enforcing body for “advice” on things in general or look through laws? And again, although we are “EUROPE” each member state interprets differently. Its also impossible, as transport is so diverse, to highlight more than one example. Its a shame that there is no definitive guide or any harmonisation between member states (as yet).
As coffee said earlier, if you are UK only, fill your boots. What would a court say to a driver if he produces a VOSA guide showing he was allowed to do what he did as far as that guide says? After all, VOSA enforce it in the UK. Could be an interesting situation, could even have previously happened, is anybody any wiser on this?
Has anybody been prosecuted for doing more than 6 shifts on the trot? If so what wss the offence recorded against them and the outcome?
Mike-C:
What happens when some guy takes on a sixth shift for some overtime and it falls foul of VOSA’s 144 hour limit thing?
How can that happen ?
Even if you could only work for a maximum of six shifts as you believe, the maximum time before needing a weekly rest would still be 144 hours from the end of the last weekly rest period
Yes if you’re starting work at the same time every day it can’t happen. In reality however you’ve done plenty of supermarket/agency work like me, a typical working pattern i have done in lots of them is to get the early starts on a Monday morning and they get later each day. Come Friday i’ll be starting near tea time for a shift, they’re the shifts they struggled to cover. Now you see how it impacts on taking an extra Saturday night shift for example?
zippy!:
The thing is, VOSA will have to keep giving “bum advice” as you say, as a court wont give anybody any. Do drivers turn to the enforcing body for “advice” on things in general or look through laws?
‘Advice’ would be the preferable route to go. Help me out here, my eyesight aint what it used to be. What does this mean…(is it a new rule?)
zippy!:
The thing is, VOSA will have to keep giving “bum advice” as you say, as a court wont give anybody any. Do drivers turn to the enforcing body for “advice” on things in general or look through laws?
‘Advice’ would be the preferable route to go. Help me out here, my eyesight aint what it used to be. What does this mean…(is it a new rule?)
To me it looks like the MINIMUM requirements for weekly rest, it appears to have missed from it the part where it says a weekly rest must be attached to each week (or however it is worded). so without the rest of it…
You can take more than one weekly rest in a week if required can you not, or am I missing the point?
Sorry about your eyesight Mike, I have tried to remain couteous throughout this thread!
Mike-C:
What happens when some guy takes on a sixth shift for some overtime and it falls foul of VOSA’s 144 hour limit thing?
How can that happen ?
Even if you could only work for a maximum of six shifts as you believe, the maximum time before needing a weekly rest would still be 144 hours from the end of the last weekly rest period
Yes if you’re starting work at the same time every day it can’t happen. In reality however you’ve done plenty of supermarket/agency work like me, a typical working pattern i have done in lots of them is to get the early starts on a Monday morning and they get later each day. Come Friday i’ll be starting near tea time for a shift, they’re the shifts they struggled to cover. Now you see how it impacts on taking an extra Saturday night shift for example?
The in this scenario, which ever way you look at it, in whichever country, then there could be an infringement. All depends what time / day the end of the last weekly rest period ended. It could be done if there was a 24 hour slung in somehwere?
zippy!:
What would a court say to a driver if he produces a VOSA guide showing he was allowed to do what he did as far as that guide says?
I’m not absolutely sure in these cases, but I can tell you for sure that in an Employment Law case, it wouldn’t be a defence. It may well mitigate, but there’s no guarantee.
zippy!:
After all, VOSA enforce it in the UK.
And the police ?
But there’s another fly in the ointment. On occasion, the law don’t really matter. Let’s not forget the weight of opinion carried by these trumpet company driver trainers and company policies. You’re talking to a guy (via text/screen ) that was selected for redundancy based on his tacho infringement score
True mate!!! And were back at square one as this needs interpreting as each member state has, or by a court, or a solicitor.
Sorry in my earlier post about VOSA being the enforcers of said legislation, the police obv do, but they don’t produce guides on it etc, I didn’t make myself clear when i was typing.
Sorry to hear about the redundancy. Pretty gash way to get sacked. Sounds like a case of you being a number not a name? Did they get rid of any on accident history or attendance?
zippy!:
Sorry to hear about the redundancy. Pretty gash way to get sacked. Sounds like a case of you being a number not a name? Did they get rid of any on accident history or attendance?
I’m still there. The selection was on damage, absences, etc etc, with tacho as a tie-break. I took an “alternative position” for a few weeks then I got my own motor back a couple of weeks ago.
But you’re right - it is a pretty gash way. The most annoying thing is that all my (and others’) infringements were either less than 3 or 4 minutes or Article 12 departures
I can see a company not wanting to use the “15 minute tolerance” in full for fear of encouraging it’s (over) use, but to count Art 12s is a bit rich - imho - but I think I’ve well covered that elsewhere
It just appears to be VOSA who make up the 144 hour thing and at the same time ignore the fact you are only allowed six periods inbetween rest periods.
) that was selected for redundancy based on his tacho infringement score 
