Winseer:
What’s been interesting about this entire referendum debate is that essentially people don’t know what to believe, and therefore have to take a view based upon their heads of their hearts.
I saw the first remain poster whilst out driving tonight, having seen hundreds of leave posters anywhere and everywhere these past few weeks.
It was on an overbridge over the A11 near fourwentways, northbound. Small, blue, and wasn’t there last wednesday the last time I was on that stretch of road.
I don’t imagine for a minute that remain will be getting as low a poll as the lack of their posters suggests - but rather it compares to the “Shy Tories” who unexpectedly gave Cameron his majority in the election last year - choosing to blame all the sins of the coalition upon the Libdems.
It’s possible that Cameron is playing a blinder here, and that this way of approaching the referendum is the only way he can get it past Brussels for a knock-out blow.
If this entire campaign IS to be “a very clever play” though - he will have to come clean as soon as possible after the polls close (so it doesn’t affect the result) but not so long after - that we all think he’s gravy-train running just to keep his number 10 door away from Boris…
Boris uttered the other day “I am loyal”. I wonder. Hmm…
The worst possible result in this referendum - is the public split 50/50. That’s pretty much where we’re at right now, the recent “Leave Surge” taking Brexit from Behind to level ■■■■■■■ - if you believe even an “average” of the many polls done these past few days. The betting HAS drifted on Remain to be sure - out from odds-on 1/4 last month to odds-on 4/7 now.
The price on “turnout over 80%” has also shorted up by half as well. I reckon the “registration extension” has got a lot more people to vote - for sure - but for remain? - It would be dangerous to assume all apathetic voters/floating voters/young voters/labour voters/Corbyn supporters/Scots/On-line trolls - will end up voting remain come the day. Many won’t bother, others will say they voted one way, but will actually vote the other - fear of losing face?
Leave’s arguments are based upon “unknowns” which the public are rather foolishly informed somehow constitute “lies”.
Remain’s arguments are based on “past data” in many cases, and severely over-estimate how much of the supposed “EU Lucre” reaches the ground.
I doubt very much if any of us professional drivers will be losing their job - regardless of the vote. A narrow win for Brexit is possibly the worst result of all, because it extends the “uncertainty” factor into the middle to long term, rather than draws a line under it all by a week saturday. A narrow win for Remain isn’t much better of a result though - because the main two parties will be shredded in the aftermath, de-stablizing British politics outright. With no Lib-Dems to provide “middle of the road” balance - we could see a rainbow parliament with SNP and UKIP being the two largest parties by 2020 if we’re not careful.
A good sized win for either side - is what’s desirable then.
I don’t think anyone should cast their vote based upon “uncertainty” though, as it smacks of “I don’t want to take a risk with change, so I’m passing up this opportunity to say my piece”.
If you are a remainer - get out and vote! I don’t want to live in a country where Remain just won by 51/49 - If they MUST win - let it be 75/25 or better please!
If you are a brexiteer, but can’t stand anyone in the Leave camp - Get out and vote! You’re doing this for your kids - NOT to put Boris in Number 10… That same 75/25 result is highly desirable in favour of Brexit too, as anything less than that - might well be glossed over by all concerned on a “Go out and do it again, and come back with the right result this time” - as was the case in the Irish referendum.
99% of polls I’ve seen in the last four days or so have Leave either head to head with remain, or Leave massively ahead (eg 70/30). Some aren’t very scientific, such as a poll I saw on Facebook, (even that showed a massive massive lean toward Leave again 70/30), also ones on the Telegraph and the NASDAQ websites again massive to Leave, even the Guardian had reader comments predominantly backing Leave; I just don’t have much faith in the scientific polls. Look what happened at the last election?
It’s a curious situation whereby Lab and Con are fighting together on this against Leave. I think a hell of a lot of working class voters are for Leave; I know very few people who are for Remain.
I voted for Scottish independence and have voted to remain. I see no contradiction in this.
No law that the EU has passed has had a detrimental effect on my life and nobody has been able to point one out to me. WTD I find more clumsy than restrictive, maybe because I have no desire to do 60 hour weeks. The curve or lack of in a banana has not damaged my life.
Carry will now say you can’t be independent in the EU but I would like to know which law the uk government fought so hard but still had to accept. I believe the EU has been good for the uk.
alicks77:
I voted for Scottish independence and have voted to remain. I see no contradiction in this.
No law that the EU has passed has had a detrimental effect on my life and nobody has been able to point one out to me. WTD I find more clumsy than restrictive, maybe because I have no desire to do 60 hour weeks. The curve or lack of in a banana has not damaged my life.
Carry will now say you can’t be independent in the EU but I would like to know which law the uk government fought so hard but still had to accept. I believe the EU has been good for the uk.
You see no contradiction between voting for independence from the UK because of the issue of sovereignty but voting for rule by the EU.
As for laws imposed by the EU against domestic government.
We’ve been defeated 72 times out of 72 objections, including how much uk tax payers have to contribute to the union. In the underworld the union would be called a protection racquet. Admittedly those 72 defeats are only 2 % of the votes cast, but it does smack of you’re either with us, or we’re doing it anyway
We’ve been defeated 72 times out of 72 objections, including how much uk tax payers have to contribute to the union. In the underworld the union would be called a protection racquet. Admittedly those 72 defeats are only 2 % of the votes cast, but it does smack of you’re either with us, or we’re doing it anyway
That means nothing unless you can supply figures for how many times Germany for example or any other member state voted against a proposal and it was still passed, talk about clutching at straws.
I don’t hide that I am a remainer, had plenty of posts on the subject on other threads.
The only good thing about an exit vote is that we won’t see labour in power for 30 years and we will get an even more right wing Tory government for the next 2-3 cycles.
It will be a shame to lose David/George but Gove or Boris or both as PM/Chancellor will at least accelerate the privatisation of this country and the further cutting of any and all benefits/social programs. We can shove the living wage in the long grass and will have a good excuse to erode any and all workers rights even further. They will have to make Britain more competitive and cut any and all red tape to overcome the economic shock that an exit will give us.
The next government won’t have to worry about some sad [zb] taking it to the European court or use the EU human rights act to try to obstruct ultra right wing Tory policies.
Silver lining.
Unlike most berating Wheelnutt for this post I accept it for the weewee take it was obviously meant as.
However if you water the contents down say 40% that seems a likely scenario. Don’t kid yourselves the Brexiters have workers rights at the forefront of their thoughts.
As I stated in a post yesterday I’d feel agrieved at having to pay the price of Brexit, for a working man rights erosion could well be that price!
Wot workers rights? - Anything meaningful always seems to be “for others” rather than on the home front.
Betya don’t see a certain sports billionaire in jail any time soon for running an illegal sweatshop, systematically breaching near ALL the “workers rights” we are supposed to have - but strangely don’t see being enforced…
wheelnutt:
I don’t hide that I am a remainer, had plenty of posts on the subject on other threads.
The only good thing about an exit vote is that we won’t see labour in power for 30 years and we will get an even more right wing Tory government for the next 2-3 cycles.
It will be a shame to lose David/George but Gove or Boris or both as PM/Chancellor will at least accelerate the privatisation of this country and the further cutting of any and all benefits/social programs. We can shove the living wage in the long grass and will have a good excuse to erode any and all workers rights even further. They will have to make Britain more competitive and cut any and all red tape to overcome the economic shock that an exit will give us.
The next government won’t have to worry about some sad [zb] taking it to the European court or use the EU human rights act to try to obstruct ultra right wing Tory policies.
Silver lining.
Unlike the frothing brexiteers, I to note the sarcasm in your post, and I share your feelings. The current, and next, tory government (god forbid) will return this country to the 1950’s.
No doubt we will see now the usual posts of “good, life was better then” etc, but the world is very different today. There is no big, wealth (tax and revenue ) creating industry left. There is no empire to exploit.
brexiteers are giving this country away to Dave and George, to sell it of to their mates.
As for my personal situation, I have 25 years of National insurance contributions at stake. I consider this country to be my home now. I have children here. I don’t want this country to return to the forelock tugging days of yore. Don’t forget that in the 50’s you either had a job, or you didn’t. 0 hours contracts did not yet exist. If we leave Europe, and it’s workers rights protection, the Tory government will see to it that Sports direct will be an example of good working practices. …
Maggie will be proud. Dave is just about to finish what she started…
We’ve been defeated 72 times out of 72 objections, including how much uk tax payers have to contribute to the union. In the underworld the union would be called a protection racquet. Admittedly those 72 defeats are only 2 % of the votes cast, but it does smack of you’re either with us, or we’re doing it anyway
That means nothing unless you can supply figures for how many times Germany for example or any other member state voted against a proposal and it was still passed, talk about clutching at straws.
How is it clutching at straws exactly? This is a referendum on the uk membership of the eu, it’s only relevant how the uk is treated, not how the Germans or anyone else is treated. That link is from full fact, an independent, unbiased think tank, but as typical of the remain campaign, all facts are shouted down as lies. Nothing aimed at you as an individual, but some of the content of many posts, of all remainers not just yourself, are nothing short of pathetic. You can’t handle uncomfortable truths
the nodding donkey:
Evil, don’t forget that whilst you drive a comfortable truck, and earn enough money to take your missus for a slap up harvester on a Sunday, to your government you are still just a serf. And you are going to vote to tell them that you are happy for them to return to those good old English times of forelock tugging poverty.
So you suggest we stay and get ever more swamped with cheap labour and associated stresses on our infrastructure?
I’ll take my chances thanks…
I’m guessing it may not be pretty in the short term, but there will be a transition and it’s up to us to go through that for the benefit of our future generations. Hang on, I don’t have kids?
I’m still voting out!
Sorry evil, but you don’t get it. If you had a government that had the best interests of the people of this island at heart, yes, I would agree with you. But you government has only it’s own interests at heart. And will return the working people of this country to what it was like then. And let’s not bulls hit each other. What was the standard of living of the man in the street like in 1830? Or 1926? Or 1748?
least it.il get the kid off the street and back in the mines
the nodding donkey:
Evil, don’t forget that whilst you drive a comfortable truck, and earn enough money to take your missus for a slap up harvester on a Sunday, to your government you are still just a serf. And you are going to vote to tell them that you are happy for them to return to those good old English times of forelock tugging poverty.
So you suggest we stay and get ever more swamped with cheap labour and associated stresses on our infrastructure?
I’ll take my chances thanks…
I’m guessing it may not be pretty in the short term, but there will be a transition and it’s up to us to go through that for the benefit of our future generations. Hang on, I don’t have kids?
I’m still voting out!
Sorry evil, but you don’t get it. If you had a government that had the best interests of the people of this island at heart, yes, I would agree with you. But you government has only it’s own interests at heart. And will return the working people of this country to what it was like then. And let’s not bulls hit each other. What was the standard of living of the man in the street like in 1830? Or 1926? Or 1748?
least it.il get the kid off the street and back in the mines
One thing that concerns me about staying in; For the last few decades we have been thought of as quite an unhappy member of the EU, always complaining and being a general thorn in their sides on many issues, but as a massive economy we are of huge importance to them, as such they have always treated us with kid gloves not wanting to upset us any further. I now worry that a ‘remain’ vote will show us to be an enthusiastic member longing for more integration.
I certainly have my worries about leaving the EU, it’s going to be no walk in the park - but I also don’t think a ‘Remain’ vote is a vote for the status quo. A vote to stay in will see an intensification of all that we dislike about our current membership.
Nothing aimed at you as an individual, but some of the content of many posts, of all remainers not just yourself, are nothing short of pathetic. You can’t handle uncomfortable truths
The truth of it is there are uncomfortable truths to be faced by BOTH sides.
My own lack of emotional engagement in leaving the EU means I choose to see the Brexit truths as more uncomfortable than the Remain ones.
As I previously said, personal choice.
I’m voting out as the enlarged eu has affected the industry I work in between the massive supply of cheap labour supresting wages and cheap eastern European hauliers decimating international haulage for western European country’s.
Further deregulation of Cabotage will make matters worse.
Other than that our relationship with Europe has always been at best half hearted. We never joined the euro among other things and that small strip of water between Dover and calais may as well be an ocean for the differences between us and the mainland.
When we didn’t join the Euro we was told by the pro lobby we would face fire and brimstone like they are saying will happen if we vote leave so I’m prepared to take a chance.
At the end of the day for normal people it won’t make much difference it’s the rich who have most to loose or gain.
All the talk off business can’t sustain the wages look how much top earners wages have risen compared to normal earners wages.
In our industry how much dearer would a can of beans really have to be to pay a hgv driver £1 ph more?
I don’t have visions of some 1960s utopia as I bet back then people probably moaned it ain’t like the old days.
I just believe you can’t unite so many country’s with different languages cultures and levels of wealth under one umbrella.
It may be a small minded view but I have to use my vote to do what I believe is best for my family.
I don’t trust either of our main party’s but hopefully this will cause them to implode and re invent.
As a foot note when the free movement was given to Romania and Bulgaria the poles where I work were outraged and said they will cut wages ruin the jobs etc.
Everyone needs to vote for there’s elves not what the media tell you to vote for
We’ve been defeated 72 times out of 72 objections, including how much uk tax payers have to contribute to the union. In the underworld the union would be called a protection racquet. Admittedly those 72 defeats are only 2 % of the votes cast, but it does smack of you’re either with us, or we’re doing it anyway
That means nothing unless you can supply figures for how many times Germany for example or any other member state voted against a proposal and it was still passed, talk about clutching at straws.
How is it clutching at straws exactly? This is a referendum on the uk membership of the eu, it’s only relevant how the uk is treated, not how the Germans or anyone else is treated. That link is from full fact, an independent, unbiased think tank, but as typical of the remain campaign, all facts are shouted down as lies. Nothing aimed at you as an individual, but some of the content of many posts, of all remainers not just yourself, are nothing short of pathetic. You can’t handle uncomfortable truths
What is the uncomfortable truths you refer to?
Where did I say it was lies, you guys really are coming across as paranoid.
The fact that 72 times the UK objected and were over-ruled means nothing unless it is context with how many times the other members were in a similar position, 72 may be a very low figure or a very high figure but who knows with nothing to compare it against.
Click the link, and decide if any of the 72 have been detrimental to you. I picked out a few for myself, but if there aren’t any there that affect you, there might be in the 2500 or so we voted yes to, seeing as governments don’t always represent all of the people, and the 3% we abstained from voting on
