44 Tonne Ton:
Orys, we are in the middle of remembering the terrible losses suffered in two world wars. You’re making me feel we shouldn’t have [zb] bothered you ungrateful [zb]. I’m getting royally [zb] off with your Polish hard luck story about how we abandoned you. God I wish the [zb] Russians were still in charge!
So go and remember instead of abusing me. If I don’t feel like reading something, I just use the button on the top right corner of my web browser. Try it!
orys:
44 Tonne Ton:
Orys, we are in the middle of remembering the terrible losses suffered in two world wars. You’re making me feel we shouldn’t have [zb] bothered you ungrateful [zb]. I’m getting royally [zb] off with your Polish hard luck story about how we abandoned you. God I wish the [zb] Russians were still in charge!So go and remember instead of abusing me. If I don’t feel like reading something, I just use the button on the top right corner of my web browser. Try it!
You’re like a broken record mate
I am remembering people from lots of wars, some were Polish, Czech, Hungarian, Yugoslav and British.
I am not wearing a poppy because I have a reminder every day when I look at a photograph on the wall 
so just because orys doesn’t know any of the thousands of poles in eire that work for low pay they don’t exist 
and now to top it all off not only is polish food better and polish workers better and pretty much everything about the war was better because of poland now we learn that polish flats are better than UK ones 
welshboyinspain:
so just because orys doesn’t know any of the thousands of poles in eire that work for low pay they don’t exist
So only because you heard there are some, it is now thousands and thousands? 
and now to top it all off not only is polish food better and polish workers better and pretty much everything about the war was better because of poland
What exactly can be “better” in war? 
now we learn that polish flats are better than UK ones
Never said they are better, but they are very often more spacious. It has its ups and downs - for example it’s not better when it comes to heating costs.
Do you have to turn any fact in this “better or not better” thing? I just give you the facts, that all.
If you fell better (no pun intended) I can give you some facts so you can draw your favourite conclusion that Poland is worse:
Will you now keep telling about all this rose tinted glasses to me and slagging me for favourising Britain?
Or you just can accept finally, that I am just giving some facts,so the people who are interested in learning some new things can benefit from my knowledge as much, as I benefit from all interesting facts given by the other forum users?
I will accept anything you want to offer when you one day admit that eastern european workers generally work for a lot less than their western counterparts therefore driving down the wages and standard of living for those in “old” europe rather than raising standards for those “new” europeans who used to be part of USSR
orys:
welshboyinspain:
so just because orys doesn’t know any of the thousands of poles in eire that work for low pay they don’t existSo only because you heard there are some, it is now thousands and thousands?
some 
I wouldn’t call 300ish at nolans some and all of O’learys and most of breens and what about freshlinc in spalding? and surely there are many more, what about all of Roos transport or harry vos, the list is endless of companies in europe where poles are the majority, but as you don’t know them they don’t exist and therefore they don’t work for less money
lets agree to disagree orys to save this pointless argument, in my bigotted world poles and the rest of the eastern europeans work for peanuts and are therefore monkeys.
in your world poles are easily equal if not more so than western europeans because you lot won the war single handedly and the brits never helped you and you’ve got better food, bigger flats and never wear flipflops with socks
welshboyinspain:
lets agree to disagree orys to save this pointless argument, in my bigotted world poles and the rest of the eastern europeans work for peanuts and are therefore monkeys.
in your world poles are easily equal if not more so than western europeans because you lot won the war single handedly and the brits never helped you and you’ve got better food, bigger flats and never wear flipflops with socks
Save yourself that trouble, you can do better. Or at least funnier 
welshboyinspain:
I will accept anything you want to offer when you one day admit that eastern european workers generally work for a lot less than their western counterparts therefore driving down the wages and standard of living for those in “old” europe rather than raising standards for those “new” europeans who used to be part of USSR
Oh, I mentioned it already, even in this thread: because of an influx of new labour, the wages went down. this is obvious fact. But it is not that Poles work for half what Britons do, it is just now Poles work for more they used to, and Britons work for less they used to, but they all are offered the same wages.
What we don’t agree with is that Poles came here and told “hello, everyone, we want to work for you half price, because we are bunch of idiots”. No.
It was that they came to Britain to work for the same money as locals, but British hauliers seen the opportunity that they now can pay their drivers less (nothing wrong with that, they would be stupid if they would pay high rates when they don’t have to) and all drivers (Polish and British, and everyone else) had to decide if they want to work for the new rates or not (unless they were lucky to be alredy on good contract).
So yes, as I told several times before, since they were available for work, according to basic demand and supply rights, the rates went down. You do the same by moving to Spain, off course if you are only one, it will have no impact on the economy. But if there would be some thousands of welsh boys in Spain, spanish rates would go down as well due to change in supply and demand proportios on a driver’s workmarket. As someone rightly poited before, there were times when British drivers were the cheapest and they were working allover Europe.
This are a downsides of having open market. You got it a the bigger scale, but have also on the smaller scale (I heard several times about this bloody scots who move down to steal English jobs etc).
orys:
It was that they came to Britain to work for the same money as locals, but British hauliers seen the opportunity that they now can pay their drivers less (nothing wrong with that, they would be stupid if they would pay high rates when they don’t have to) and all drivers (Polish and British, and everyone else) had to decide if they want to work for the new rates or not (unless they were lucky to be alredy on good contract).
So how would the good people of Poland feel if millions of Kazakhs and Uzbeks moved to Poland and forced Polish drivers to work for less while pushing housing costs up to unaffordable levels?
My guess is that Poles, despite their warm and friendly nature, would not welcome this.
Harry Monk:
So how would the good people of Poland feel if millions of Kazakhs and Uzbeks moved to Poland and forced Polish drivers to work for less while pushing housing costs up to unaffordable levels?
How that housing costs are up to unaffordable levels while these all Poles, who work for half the money are buying houses here as crazy? It should be certainly easier for Britons who earn twice as much as them?
If I haven’t split with my partner, I would myself live in my own house by now.
My guess is that Poles, despite their warm and friendly nature, would not welcome this.
Well, since our salaries were never so elevated, there is not much to drop down from. I think we will only have that problem when we keep up with the rest of the old EU so we become attractive market for migrants as well. But then all that migration will spread across the whole EU, so it should not be so difficult.
Britain did a brave thing for letting all new members in, and I appretiate that. I think they did not expected that they will be one of the few countries who did it and that they will get the whole impact on their chest. From the point of view of average John in the pub only bad sides of this can be seen, and I understand the anger, but if you look into the global statistics, the net outcome of this for UK is positive.
To give some examples: the salaries might be lower now, but due to lower work costs, the prices did not risen up as much, as they would if the British workers were paid more for their work. Or for example: influx of migrant elevated the schooling costs for example, but at the same time, average Pole takes over 4 times less benefits than average Briton, since vast majority of them are young and willing to work - you don’t get Polish pensioners or Polish disabled people in need of care coming here. So while costs of schooling per head is now higher, the cost of elderly care per head is lower, since you have hundreds of thousends of newcomers here working and paying taxes while the number of elderly people remains constant.
If you have time and are interested, it’s worth to study the things, I had an interesting lecture on that at the uni (a British uni ) and I was really surprised myself.
To answer directly your question about Poland: I don’t know about Uzbeks and Kazakhs, but all Vietnamese, Chinese. Chechens, Georgians, Belarusans and Ukrainians (to mention the biggest migrant nations to Poland at the moment) are not causing any major problems. They are quite welcome - since Poles understand them well as a nation who moves for work as well. But, to be fair with you, there is not as much of them yet - for the reasons stated above. So I can really give you an answer if people turn hostile against the mass influx of migrants or not.
Saying that myself, except from the moaning at trucknet, I haven’t really met any hostile actions against myself, on the contrary, I quite often hear a good words from people about Poles here. So maybe even Britain is not so hostile agains us as it seems from Trucknet? Maybe it is because the haulage industry was hit hardest by the whole EU growth thing? I don’t know, and since I am falling on my nose and just came to check my e-mail before going to bed, good night
orys:
Saying that myself, except from the moaning at trucknet, I haven’t really met any hostile actions against myself, on the contrary, I quite often hear a good words from people about Poles here. So maybe even Britain is not so hostile agains us as it seems from Trucknet?
No, I think most TruckNet members’ view would mirror my own, we have no animosity towards individual Poles for coming to work here, and if we all got the chance to go and pick strawberries in Bialystock for £120,000 a year then we all would be on the next coach out of Victoria station.
We blame the politicians who allowed it to happen, and it should not have been allowed to happen. A Polish truck driver working for our National Minimum Wage has had a huge pay rise. A British truck driver working for the National Minimum Wage has had a huge pay cut.
And nobody likes a pay cut…
Harry Monk:
orys:
It was that they came to Britain to work for the same money as locals, but British hauliers seen the opportunity that they now can pay their drivers less (nothing wrong with that, they would be stupid if they would pay high rates when they don’t have to) and all drivers (Polish and British, and everyone else) had to decide if they want to work for the new rates or not (unless they were lucky to be alredy on good contract).So how would the good people of Poland feel if millions of Kazakhs and Uzbeks moved to Poland and forced Polish drivers to work for less while pushing housing costs up to unaffordable levels?
The problem isn’t that Poles came to the UK its a matter of how many came in such a short space of time and that scale of economy just does not compare to a few hundred British drivers in Ireland or Holland, many of whom were also replaced by the arrival of Poles in those two countries too.
I dont blame any Pole or eastern European moving west and making the best of the opertunities they have, I’ve done the same in Canada. My gripe is with Polish trucks, driven by Polish drivers, on Polish wages being operated soley between other European countries and undercutting British, German, Dutch French transoport companies on domestic western european work. Poles living in Britain wether sending money home or not are still having to live within the constraints of a very expensive society and earn wages according, even if it it sometimes less than the equivillent Brit is on, but a Polish truck thats operated from Poland and paying the driver Polish wages, but putting it up against British, German or whoever in western Europe is the real parasite when it comes to the transport industry in Europe.
Out of interest Orys, can you tell us more of these two British drivers working for Polish companies? I once heared a rumor that Polish companies were at one time advertising for drivers in poorer parts of Ireland and Scotland, I’ve never seen proof of that myself though.
robinhood_1984:
Out of interest Orys, can you tell us more of these two British drivers working for Polish companies? I once heared a rumor that Polish companies were at one time advertising for drivers in poorer parts of Ireland and Scotland, I’ve never seen proof of that myself though.
I met a spanish driver a couple of months ago in Mulhouse he was from Barcelona but he was driving a polish magnum. when I asked him why he was working for a polish company he told me that he and 29 others at a barcelona based spanish company had been replaced by 30 romanians, cheaper and willing to stay away from home for 2 months at a time.
I agree with the above comments about not blaming the polish individuals but the system which let join millions at once is to blame, if only they’d done it at a slower pace it might not have hurt so much but how can you let a country like romania in when the average wage is less than 800 euro a month and then expect them to stay in their own country and be happy with being the poorer part of the EU
my friend was delivering to a coldstore when a gist from spalding came in, and ben got talking to the driver who was a pole, now this driver lives in wales but works out of spalding sharing a flat down there 3 weeks at a time then goes home for a week.
my mates asks him about his money and mr pole says he is on £7.50 all hours and £9.50 weekends
so ben tells him he is being ripped off but poles says they are all on that
ben gets number for the agency and bells them up in front of the pole gets chatting to agency bird ask whats work they have on … she lists a load of companies including gist, my mate ben says oh right ive done a lot of work for gist out of hemel would he be able to get in there agency girl says yes no problem at all…
ben asks what the rate is…
she says £9.50 mon to fri and time and half after 8 
pole hears this goes stomping off to truck in a right flaming mood 
later my mate is pulling out and pole is grinning ear to ear with his thumbs up.
true story
I think a lot of the problem in general in the UK is the agency culture in the economy where by many people these days are employed on a casual basis from day to day never knowing when they will be working next or not.
My brother works at the Kimberley Clark factory in Barton-upon-Humber via an agency like most of the work force and its pretty much minimum wage and while he may work 5 days one week, he’ll work one day the next and by all accounts a large number of his co-workers are Polish or other eastern europeans. In times of plenty agencies surely offers workers and drivers with the opertunity to earn very decent money, but when a huge amount of cheap labour becomes available, especially in harder times like the present, its just a receipe for wholesale replacments of workers with whoever is cheapest at that moment in time as no one is actually employed by the companies they are working at.
I’ve never liked working for agencies due to the uncertainty of work and before coming to Canada I worked for the same company for three and a half years at a company with about 25 trucks and 25 drivers. Not mega money, about 400-450 per week take home with 4 nights out but it was a good stable job with garunteed wages each week and no one was ever replaced by a cheaper worker from eastern Europe.
Of course there are actual companies who have replaced British drivers with eastern Europeans, but I do think the agency culture of British industry has been a massive accelerator of the problem.
robinhood_1984:
I think a lot of the problem in general in the UK is the agency culture in the economy where by many people these days are employed on a casual basis from day to day never knowing when they will be working next or not.
My brother works at the Kimberley Clark factory in Barton-upon-Humber via an agency like most of the work force and its pretty much minimum wage and while he may work 5 days one week, he’ll work one day the next and by all accounts a large number of his co-workers are Polish or other eastern europeans. In times of plenty agencies surely offers workers and drivers with the opertunity to earn very decent money, but when a huge amount of cheap labour becomes available, especially in harder times like the present, its just a receipe for wholesale replacments of workers with whoever is cheapest at that moment in time as no one is actually employed by the companies they are working at.
I’ve never liked working for agencies due to the uncertainty of work and before coming to Canada I worked for the same company for three and a half years at a company with about 25 trucks and 25 drivers. Not mega money, about 400-450 per week take home with 4 nights out but it was a good stable job with garunteed wages each week and no one was ever replaced by a cheaper worker from eastern Europe.
Of course there are actual companies who have replaced British drivers with eastern Europeans, but I do think the agency culture of British industry has been a massive accelerator of the problem.
And that is the most sensible post I have read on here, it is the agencies that have sprang up over the last 20 years that are the parasites, mostly staffed by sales people whose only aim is to flood the market with cheap labour, whether that be home bred or migrant.
I applied for a job at an employment agency with the romantic notion that my knowledge of the transport industry would be welcome, nothing could be further from the truth, they would rather employ a well endowed 19 year old girl with a love of older men who can wine and dine accountants.
In my book, agencies and caravan dwellers are from the same stable, they make a living from others misery. Of course an agency advertising jobs and an industry feigning driver shortages is going to attract foreign labour.
orys:
welshboyinspain:
lets agree to disagree orys to save this pointless argument, in my bigotted world poles and the rest of the eastern europeans work for peanuts and are therefore monkeys.
in your world poles are easily equal if not more so than western europeans because you lot won the war single handedly and the brits never helped you and you’ve got better food, bigger flats and never wear flipflops with socksSave yourself that trouble, you can do better. Or at least funnier
Ory’s, Ignore what they say about Poland and let’s talk about the Polish women. Why are they fit and ■■■■ looking?
Look to the future people not the past!
mickyblue:
orys:
welshboyinspain:
lets agree to disagree orys to save this pointless argument, in my bigotted world poles and the rest of the eastern europeans work for peanuts and are therefore monkeys.
in your world poles are easily equal if not more so than western europeans because you lot won the war single handedly and the brits never helped you and you’ve got better food, bigger flats and never wear flipflops with socksSave yourself that trouble, you can do better. Or at least funnier
Ory’s, Ignore what they say about Poland and let’s talk about the Polish women. Why are they fit and ■■■■ looking?
Look to the future people not the past!
I just watched a programme about cabbage, although I cannot see why it doesn’t work with German women
double post