So If We Leave

[ovlov_jay]

Rjan:

OVLOV JAY:
Do I have a problem with mass immigration? Yes I do. Am I stupid enough to think the bath will empty on June 24th, hell no. Do I blame suppression of wages on the eu’s open border policy? Dam right I do. Is it going to change? Probably not right away if at all. If your house is on fire, you can’t move back in just because the fires out. Lots of work needs to be done.

Do you really have a problem with immigration? You know, the Alf Garnett sort who likes pie and chips and doesn’t like foreign muck, laughs at hearing foreign languages, and thinks the newcomers have spoiled the local area?

Or is it just purely a problem of undercutting, unemployment, and scab labour that immigration causes in the free market?

If it’s the latter then your problem is not immigration, it is the market in wages, and your refusal to accept its verdict under conditions of free competition.

The simplest solution to undercutting is to have wages set by democratic verdict rather than market verdict. A minimum wage or a going rate enforced on employers. We used to have these in various forms. They were abolished precisely to allow wages to be forced down - and it seems a bit extreme to be building concrete walls and throwing people out the country, instead of just legislating the outcome you want, don’t you think?

After all, if immigrants are kept out, then the rules on free movement of capital will simply allow bosses to move factories, machines, and know-how abroad to where those cheap workers are located - and those workers who you’ve kicked out will have no hesitation in stealing as many of your jobs as they can this way and seeing you reduced to beggary!

Did you want to get down off that high horse and put my quote back into the context you took it out of?

[carryfast]

Rjan:
Do you really have a problem with immigration? You know, the Alf Garnett sort who likes pie and chips and doesn’t like foreign muck, laughs at hearing foreign languages, and thinks the newcomers have spoiled the local area?

Or is it just purely a problem of undercutting, unemployment, and scab labour that immigration causes in the free market?

If it’s the latter then your problem is not immigration, it is the market in wages, and your refusal to accept its verdict under conditions of free competition.

The simplest solution to undercutting is to have wages set by democratic verdict rather than market verdict. A minimum wage or a going rate enforced on employers. We used to have these in various forms. They were abolished precisely to allow wages to be forced down - and it seems a bit extreme to be building concrete walls and throwing people out the country, instead of just legislating the outcome you want, don’t you think?

After all, if immigrants are kept out, then the rules on free movement of capital will simply allow bosses to move factories, machines, and know-how abroad to where those cheap workers are located - and those workers who you’ve kicked out will have no hesitation in stealing as many of your jobs as they can this way and seeing you reduced to beggary!

Actually Alf Garnett’s character was a bs parody set up by Socialist zb wits.Like the character played by Tony Booth who ironically ended up with the family connection to Tony Blair by marriage. Even more ironically Alf’s character had the last laugh in the form of inconvenient issues like white flight and areas of London now ethnic immigrant enclaves voting for their own ethnic demographic representatives.

To which your answer,like Corbyn’s,is we know immigration is all about cheap labour.But let’s keep the open door policy going based on the bs excuse that if we don’t then what jobs we’ve got left will be shipped out to cheap labour countries.All on the basis that maintaining the ideology of world without borders or nations Socialism,is more important,than looking after the national interest in the form of protectionist trade policies and enough to ally yourselves to Camoron’s and his CBI masters’ agenda.Just like zb Blair did before him.

[carryfast]

Rjan:
Bosses are simply undercutting rates, rates that settled workers won’t work for, by employing migrants who will. Migrants aren’t reserving cushy jobs for themselves. If a settled, experienced worker will do a good 15 hour day in a rat-arsed wagon for NMW (or less), without any complaint, they’ll get the job ahead of any migrant, I assure you.

To which your answer is let’s keep the door open to increase that supply of cheap labour even more.Based on the bs excuse that if we don’t the jobs will go to where the cheap labour originates from.Obviously helped by your support of a regime which would facilitate that situation by removing cabotage restrictions.

[harry_monk]

Rjan:
What a load of tosh! Bosses are simply undercutting rates, rates that settled workers won’t work for, by employing migrants who will. Migrants aren’t reserving cushy jobs for themselves. If a settled, experienced worker will do a good 15 hour day in a rat-arsed wagon for NMW (or less), without any complaint, they’ll get the job ahead of any migrant, I assure you.

I’m sure you are right, but is that really what we should be aspiring to?

[carryfast]

Harry Monk:

Rjan:
What a load of tosh! Bosses are simply undercutting rates, rates that settled workers won’t work for, by employing migrants who will. Migrants aren’t reserving cushy jobs for themselves. If a settled, experienced worker will do a good 15 hour day in a rat-arsed wagon for NMW (or less), without any complaint, they’ll get the job ahead of any migrant, I assure you.

I’m sure you are right, but is that really what we should be aspiring to?

I think you’ve missed the bit where his typically Socialist solution is to leave the door open to the world’s less fortunate masses and bring them all here where we’ll increase the minimum wage to £15 per hour for them.Because it’s ‘our’ responsibility to help the less fortunate and only by moving the world’s poorer population here can we remove the guilt of our success.

[kr79]

When our capital city has a large ethnic population than a native British one something has gone wrong.
I don’t blame immigrants I blame the system.

[ovlov_jay]

kr79:
When our capital city has a large ethnic population than a native British one something has gone wrong.
I don’t blame immigrants I blame the system.

Spot on Kev, that’s the point I was trying to make. I don’t blame anyone that’s come here as this country has made their lives great. I blame the system and it’s open door policy. Diversity has turned into dilution.

[winseer]

There seems to be this feeling that anyone who started out “Anti Tory” here is fishing among the EU regs to find something that we “lose” should we leave the EU.

“We’ll lose maternity rights”
“We’ll lose rights to a 48 hour week”
“We’ll lose rights to 10 hour limit on night workers”
“We’ll lose rights to paid holidays”

Of ALL the arguments I’ve heard from the Remain camp spokespeople in the last few days, My award for the biggest bubble of ■■■■■■■■ (Sounds better than triple whammy of woe don’t it? ) goes to none other than Andy Burnham and Alan Johnson.

The ultimate “scaremongering” award therefore also goes to these pair of clowns I suggest. Even Osbourne never had it on the cards to take away ANY of the above rules, and he’s been banging on about staying in all along.

SO big question is: Where the hell did this particular scaremonger argument originate from?

The truth I’m pretty certain is nowhere near 100% of the above “are on the cards to be revoked”. Perhaps one of the four? - Perhaps Maternity rights are going to be reviewed?

To suggest that British workers will “No longer be entitled to holiday pay as full timers” though - beggars belief.
The next thing we’ll be hearing is that “You can’t be an agency worker and vote Labour”.
Looks like the labour membership might be falling away faster than anyone realized.

[winseer]

Forget immigration. Forget who cuts what.

This entire exercise is about “repairing damage done since 1997 by Blair” The immigration policies. The illegal wars. The soft-rub political correctness now made into bulls hit laws.

It all comes down to "DO we want “more of the same” - Austerity to pay for our past government’s mistakes?

…OR…

…Do we want something that will ■■■■ off ALL government heads - and get them back to work for a living again, re-negotiating as much as one might do at the end of a war, or perhaps only as little as a change in government…?

I can understand why they don’t want to be made to work… Diddums! That it’s Boris about to dish out the Chinese burns rather than Farage is of no importance. I’m happy with seeing a whole line of sniffling fools with red-raw arms - actually having to work hard for a living like the rest of us at last.

NEXT? - The Legal System…

[winseer]

kr79:
I saw an article in a link on Facebook that said if we vote leave that parliament will vote to do a deal to keep us in the single market which seems the worst outcome possible.
However if Cameron would be able to remain in office if we vote leave is another question

Parliament would remove the current government before wets can be allowed to negotiate a counter-public deal. This would mean a vote of no confidence in Cameron, and a snap general election called.
There’s no way our current shower in the commons would be allowed to “stick us back into the fire” without some serious breakdown of law and order in this country - Especially if Brexit win by a good margin on a higher than expected turnout.

Boris is unlikely to be crowned PM - even if Brexit wins by a landslide.

If a general election date for this year has already been set though - he may be crowned the new leader of the Conservative Party rather hastily in the election run-up…

Beating Boris - might well be Corbyn’s one and only chance he’s going to get at the PM job himself…

Corbyn was backed into 11/2 last week for “Being the next PM after Cameron” - but the surge in the polls for Brexit this week has seen that price drift all the way out to 10-1 since (13/2 still with Corals)

Corbyns price for winning in 2020 is a lot longer - since it’s not a foregone conclusion he will still be leader of the Labour Party by that point.

[juddian]

Labour abandoned the genuine working class long ago (with honourable exceptions such as Dennis Skinner, the late Tony Benn, Frank Field), an especially sneering attitude towards any working person who happened to still have a love for the country and wished it to stay as it was warts and all, a country i might add that was a Jerusalem to be born into some 61 years ago.

If you speak to most settled British people of different ethnic backgrounds who have been here years and raised decent honourable children, West indians and other black people, Indians especially Sikhs and Hindus, many others, you’ll find many people who are more patriotic than most white British and have a genuine love of this country.
Have a chat about the coming vote to Polish people settled here and you find many would be voting out if they had the chance to, so if its a deliberate ‘mistake’ that some eastern europeans settled here have received voting papers for the coming referendum the Inners might have just shot themselves in the foot again.

UKIP have taken over as the party who actually cares about British working people, quite how anyone who works for a living (not shirks for benefits) can still vote en masse tribally for Labour is a complete mystery to me, though i well understand Dennis Skinner and other decent principled Labour MP’s (whom i may well disagree with but for whom i have the utmost respect) coming home with thumping majorities time after time, just a pity they…just like the remaining genuine Conservative tories…have found themselves squeezed out since the social democrat Blairites took over both parties.

Winseer, i hope you are right about the Tories finding their ■■■■■■■■ again and acting like Conservatives, i’m just not convinced this is going to happen.
I tend to think the tory leave leaders hope it will be a close call so we can renegotiate from a stronger position (as the EU realise we the British people really do want to bugger off) and then have another vote, Eire style, and stay in that way…i hope i’m utterly wrong here, but i do not trust the tory official leave group as far as i could thrown them.

[del_trotter]

OVLOV JAY:

Rjan:

OVLOV JAY:
Do I have a problem with mass immigration? Yes I do. Am I stupid enough to think the bath will empty on June 24th, hell no. Do I blame suppression of wages on the eu’s open border policy? Dam right I do. Is it going to change? Probably not right away if at all. If your house is on fire, you can’t move back in just because the fires out. Lots of work needs to be done.

Do you really have a problem with immigration? You know, the Alf Garnett sort who likes pie and chips and doesn’t like foreign muck, laughs at hearing foreign languages, and thinks the newcomers have spoiled the local area?

Or is it just purely a problem of undercutting, unemployment, and scab labour that immigration causes in the free market?

If it’s the latter then your problem is not immigration, it is the market in wages, and your refusal to accept its verdict under conditions of free competition.

The simplest solution to undercutting is to have wages set by democratic verdict rather than market verdict. A minimum wage or a going rate enforced on employers. We used to have these in various forms. They were abolished precisely to allow wages to be forced down - and it seems a bit extreme to be building concrete walls and throwing people out the country, instead of just legislating the outcome you want, don’t you think?

After all, if immigrants are kept out, then the rules on free movement of capital will simply allow bosses to move factories, machines, and know-how abroad to where those cheap workers are located - and those workers who you’ve kicked out will have no hesitation in stealing as many of your jobs as they can this way and seeing you reduced to beggary!

Did you want to get down off that high horse and put my quote back into the context you took it out of?

Where? Back with all the other jingoistic nonsense.

[dolph]

Talking about politics. Reading British news the last couple of years I believe people should pay a lot more attention to politicians - British and all other EU.
Everyone in UK is complaining about EU, but no one seems to see the Tory mess over the years, I cant imagine UK in the hand of the Tory only post Brexit. Big business and politicians will have a heaven here.
Few examples:

UK to reject EU plans to combat multinational tax avoidance (The Guardian, June 2015)

UK accused of leading efforts to block limits to Chinese steel dumping (The Guardian, 1 April 2016)
Britain acted as ringleader in preventing increased tariffs on cheap imports to EU, according to European Steel Association

David Cameron backs ‘brilliant’ arms deals with Saudi Arabia… hours after Europe says we should ban them(Independent, Feb 2016)
Etc. etc. etc.

Everyone is blaming the immigrants for the situation of NHS, forgetting the fact that the Tory Gov completely abandon the NHS and make huge cuts in staff and money.

Why people think that being ruled solely by Tory gov. will be any better for them. Being able to choose your tyrant is far away from democracy.

[juddian]

Dolph old mate, you should never ever read or believe what’s written in our national newspapers, and avoiding the BBC and Channel 4 in particular on the telly is also good for the soul.
In fact avoiding the mainstream media is very good for you, search out other sources with opposing views (plus their own vested interests) and take a healthy view that somewhere between the two extremes is a clue to what’s really going on.

The papers you link to are lefty liberal wishy washy rags anyway, if you read articles in the Daily Express or Dail Mail instead you would find a slant completely different, each and every one of these publications has their own agenda.

We are where we are with out political parties, there isn’t a ■■■ paper between them but the emergence of UKIP has to some extent addressed that, in part because the xenophobe racist little englander jibes against Farage and UKIP no longer compute with the British public who at last, (apart from the young who haven’t been around long enough to see how much all sides lie), are seeing through this and treating it with the scorn it deserves.

In their quest to demonise those who want out they failed, as they often do, to realise they are dealing with stubborn British people, Brit’s don’t take kindly to bullies nor to being taken the ■■■■ out of for too long, easy going they might be but there is a sea change afoot in the nation, you can feel it out there.

I have a feeling the tory party as it is now will not exist in 10 years time, hopefully the same can be said of the labour party too, neither of which are fit for purpose in their present form.
Even in the house of commons, common sense is starting to rear its head, not only did they reject Camerons bid to bomb Syria but they’ve kicked TTIP into touch too, at one time had Blair/Cameron decreed these should happen then they would have gone along with it sheep like.

I am reservedly slightly optimistic that we yet might see the return of real Britain (with all its faults), that i would love to see in my lifetime.

As for so called cuts, there haven’t been any worth mentioning.
The NHS is still a bottomless pit stuffed to the rafters with managers, but whatever happens this great institution is going to have to change, it cannot continue to be the international health service paid for by and dwindling number of net tax payers…due in no small way to excess immigration for years having a downturn effect on wages gradually leading to less tax take year on year as more and more working people move into a stat subsidised tax situation.
The country simply cannot go on as it is whatever happens in the referendum, we have a £1.5 trillion debt mountain that is unpayable, so someone is going to have to take the bull by the horns and sort out our economy.
Borrowing more money to throw about when we are already a basket case is only going to end up with us bankrupt.

The days of free money are over whoever gets in.

[alix776]

Rjan:

Carryfast:

Dolph:
To “support” you last paragraph, at the place where I did assessment last week most British drivers were above 50, the assessor was above 60. All EE drivers, like me, my buddy from Poland, another buddy from Slovakia etc. are between 28 and 35. Most young Brits in the company work in the office and on a desk. And thats a good paying company, despite that they constantly cant find drivers…
Now where is the problem: in EE migrants, in native Brits, in EU, in UK, in razing kids with culture to go to college/university no matter what, I don’t know, but don’t blame us for doing what is best for us Legally!

As you’ll have seen in numerous posts on here ‘young Brit’ drivers have always had the problem of the bs ‘experience’ hurdle to put up with.In addition to numerous other pecking order issues which mean that it’s too often a case of knowing the right people or getting a lucky break to get a start.You can now obviously add to that the issue of the East Euro workforce adding to the labour supply.Which is a vicious circle of at best the employers having to keep giving the available jobs to that immigrant workforce to maintain the attraction to keep that supply going.Or at worse an immigrant infiltrated recruitment sector that only employs ‘their own’ as part of the above.

On that note if you really think that there are no Brit drivers wanting the jobs.Then you’ll obviously have no problem with a condition that any job taken by an East Euro immigrant worker has to remain advertised and given to any indigenous worker who wants it.Regardless of their level of ‘experience’.

As for the American example.As you found yourself that’s bs being that the idea of open door US immigration ended in the early 20th century.After which time the idea is nothing more than a myth.

What a load of tosh! Bosses are simply undercutting rates, rates that settled workers won’t work for, by employing migrants who will. Migrants aren’t reserving cushy jobs for themselves. If a settled, experienced worker will do a good 15 hour day in a rat-arsed wagon for NMW (or less), without any complaint, they’ll get the job ahead of any migrant, I assure you.

And you think coming out of eu will change that most of your workers rights are eu legislation . So thinking you’ll be doing less hrs out is day dreaming if you come out then you’ll get a much worse deal

[del_trotter]

Juddian:
I am reservedly slightly optimistic that we yet might see the return of real Britain (with all its faults), that i would love to see in my lifetime.

What is this “real Britain” you talk of? 3 day weeks, going cap in hand to the IMF, rubbish pilling up on the streets and endless strikes from one union or another.

[ovlov_jay]

del trotter:

OVLOV JAY:

Rjan:

OVLOV JAY:
Do I have a problem with mass immigration? Yes I do. Am I stupid enough to think the bath will empty on June 24th, hell no. Do I blame suppression of wages on the eu’s open border policy? Dam right I do. Is it going to change? Probably not right away if at all. If your house is on fire, you can’t move back in just because the fires out. Lots of work needs to be done.

Do you really have a problem with immigration? You know, the Alf Garnett sort who likes pie and chips and doesn’t like foreign muck, laughs at hearing foreign languages, and thinks the newcomers have spoiled the local area?

Or is it just purely a problem of undercutting, unemployment, and scab labour that immigration causes in the free market?

If it’s the latter then your problem is not immigration, it is the market in wages, and your refusal to accept its verdict under conditions of free competition.

The simplest solution to undercutting is to have wages set by democratic verdict rather than market verdict. A minimum wage or a going rate enforced on employers. We used to have these in various forms. They were abolished precisely to allow wages to be forced down - and it seems a bit extreme to be building concrete walls and throwing people out the country, instead of just legislating the outcome you want, don’t you think?

After all, if immigrants are kept out, then the rules on free movement of capital will simply allow bosses to move factories, machines, and know-how abroad to where those cheap workers are located - and those workers who you’ve kicked out will have no hesitation in stealing as many of your jobs as they can this way and seeing you reduced to beggary!

Did you want to get down off that high horse and put my quote back into the context you took it out of?

Where? Back with all the other jingoistic nonsense.

The context that I have a problem with mass immigration, not the principal of immigration itself. And quite how anyone can say the oppression of wages due to open door policies is nonsense, is beyond me. Some people can’t see the wood for the trees. What do you think caused a suppression of wages?

[mazzer]

And you think coming out of eu will change that most of your workers rights are eu legislation . So thinking you’ll be doing less hrs out is day dreaming if you come out then you’ll get a much worse deal
[/quote]
If you look at the history of workers rights in the UK most were put in place before EU membership and many are more generous than the EU bare minimum, equal pay and the ■■■ discrimination were UK law before the UK joined. The introduction of the minimum wage had nothing to do with the EU, no political party that wants to get elected will remove these rights as they know it would be political suicide, don’t see the EU stepping in to support the French workers whose rights at this moment are being taken away. If the EU is so good for the working man then why have Europe’s working class not seen a rise in their living standards in the last 10 years?

[carryfast]

del trotter:

Juddian:
I am reservedly slightly optimistic that we yet might see the return of real Britain (with all its faults), that i would love to see in my lifetime.

What is this “real Britain” you talk of? 3 day weeks, going cap in hand to the IMF, rubbish pilling up on the streets and endless strikes from one union or another.

I think you’ve defeated your own bs argument if you’re trying to use all that to justify EU membership.The miners strike of 1972 actually proved the lie of more so called workers rights in the EU. IE it was the right of secondary action wot won it.Which Europhile Thatcher removed obviously ‘after’ we’d joined the EU.The IMF debacle happened ‘after’ we’d joined the EU on Europhile Callaghan’s watch.Mostly as a result of the wholesale handing over of UK industry and with it jobs to German interests and Healey’s idea of limiting wage rises to below the rate of inflation thereby collapsing consumer demand and with it the economy.

In which case I’d guess that Juddian is rightly referring to the situation as it was in the 1960’s early 1970’s.Let me guess you’re now going to try to make the case that we were a basket case version of North Korea then.In which case exactly how old were you then.

[carryfast]

alix776:
And you think coming out of eu will change that most of your workers rights are eu legislation . So thinking you’ll be doing less hrs out is day dreaming if you come out then you’ll get a much worse deal

Workers rights like what is effectively the removal of the ‘right’ to strike in the form of secondary action laws you mean.Or flooding the labour market with the mass import of cheap East European labour.Or the export of jobs to cheap labour East Euro countries.Removal of cabotage restrictions and Turkish EU membership regards all the above.