del trotter:
jingoistic nonsense.
Which is a lot better than zb anti nation state federalist Soviet Socialism. 
Thatās a national issue nothing to do with the eu. oh enjoy the more expensive holidays abroad and you phone will require world data not eu which is 5 times the price of eu.
alix776:
Thatās a national issue nothing to do with the eu. oh enjoy the more expensive holidays abroad and you phone will require world data not eu which is 5 times the price of eu.
Thatās helping my confidence of a win if thatās the best argument youāve got to keep us in the scam.The strength of the Unions and the economy just coincidentally went to hell in a hand cart after 1973 and never really recovered.Now the scare tactics of more expensive holidays and mobile phone charges v the reality of Turkish EU membership and removal of cabotage restrictions.Europhiles bunch of zb losers from Heath to Cameron. 
OVLOV JAY:
Did you want to get down off that high horse and put my quote back into the context you took it out of?
What was out of context?
Itās a straightforward question about whether your anti-immigration stance (and that of most here) really goes any deeper than the effect on wages (or other economic issues like housing or public services)?
I mean, if youāre a banana-throwing member of the master race (and Iām not suggesting you are), that kind of anti-immigrant stance comes from a completely different place than sensible people who just donāt want their wages and conditions to be undercut.
del trotter:
Juddian:
I am reservedly slightly optimistic that we yet might see the return of real Britain (with all its faults), that i would love to see in my lifetime.What is this āreal Britainā you talk of? 3 day weeks, going cap in hand to the IMF, rubbish pilling up on the streets and endless strikes from one union or another.
Independent trading nation, just like we were for hundreds of years, with the ability via general elections to sack those who make the laws that rule our lives.
Borders without the duly elected government of the country in question in control means you are not an independent nation.
As for cap in hand, do you think we borrowed and ran up a Ā£1.5 trillion national debt out of the Blair/Brown/Cameron/Osborne wallets, that money is borrowed from international banks and institutions.
alix776:
Thatās a national issue nothing to do with the eu. oh enjoy the more expensive holidays abroad and you phone will require world data not eu which is 5 times the price of eu.
Because the aviation industry has gone the way they want haulage to go, a race to the bottom free for all. Iāll choose to protect my wages rather than air fares. And if itās more expensive to holiday in Spain than the us, then Iāll go to the latter. As for mobile data, Iām of a mind set that Iām on holiday. I donāt need to know how my mates getting on tipping nw10 while Iām round the pool, so Iāll wait for the free wifi in the bar thanks 
Rjan:
OVLOV JAY:
Did you want to get down off that high horse and put my quote back into the context you took it out of?What was out of context?
Itās a straightforward question about whether your anti-immigration stance (and that of most here) really goes any deeper than the effect on wages (or other economic issues like housing or public services)?
I mean, if youāre a banana-throwing member of the master race (and Iām not suggesting you are), that kind of anti-immigrant stance comes from a completely different place than sensible people who just donāt want their wages and conditions to be undercut.
You omitted the word mass from your rant, that was the context
Rjan:
OVLOV JAY:
Did you want to get down off that high horse and put my quote back into the context you took it out of?What was out of context?
Itās a straightforward question about whether your anti-immigration stance (and that of most here) really goes any deeper than the effect on wages (or other economic issues like housing or public services)?
I mean, if youāre a banana-throwing member of the master race (and Iām not suggesting you are), that kind of anti-immigrant stance comes from a completely different place than sensible people who just donāt want their wages and conditions to be undercut.
Which part of,we also donāt want the demographic,locally or nationally,of the country changed to the point where the indigenous population become foreigners in our own country,donāt you understand.Among other issues like at what point do you call it an over populated small Island which has to say enough at some point bearing in mind a population of 65,000,000 and climbing.Which isnāt the same thing as the propaganda,used by the world without borders let all the worldās poorer population in to live here lot use,in trying to paint that as the same thing as genocide.As Iāve said Hitlerās ideas just being another part of the broad spectrum of typical Social engineering expected of zb Socialists.
Juddian:
As for cap in hand, do you think we borrowed and ran up a Ā£1.5 trillion national debt out of the Blair/Brown/Cameron/Osborne wallets, that money is borrowed from international banks and institutions.
The relevant bit,unfortunately for the Europhile case,being that it happened āafterā we joined the EEC/EU not before.
Carryfast:
I think youāve missed the bit where his typically Socialist solution is to leave the door open to the worldās less fortunate masses and bring them all here where weāll increase the minimum wage to Ā£15 per hour for them.Because itās āourā responsibility to help the less fortunate and only by moving the worldās poorer population here can we remove the guilt of our success.
I havenāt said. All I said is that the existing highest going rate (and the conditions applicable to it) should be made the compulsory minimum for migrants - the market will then ā ā ā ā in migrants only to stabilise runaway rates when there is a genuine shortage (i.e. it wonāt encourage migration merely to undercut existing rates, because bosses will have to pay migrants top whack, which they will only do if they simply canāt attract a settled worker).
Why do people find it so easy to conceive of putting up walls, increasing the size of the border agency tenfold, and so forth, but so inconceivable to think about just legislating a minimum wage rate for a sector?
Rjan:
Carryfast:
I think youāve missed the bit where his typically Socialist solution is to leave the door open to the worldās less fortunate masses and bring them all here where weāll increase the minimum wage to Ā£15 per hour for them.Because itās āourā responsibility to help the less fortunate and only by moving the worldās poorer population here can we remove the guilt of our success.I havenāt said. All I said is that the existing highest going rate (and the conditions applicable to it) should be made the compulsory minimum for migrants - the market will then ā ā ā ā in migrants only to stabilise runaway rates when there is a genuine shortage (i.e. it wonāt encourage migration merely to undercut existing rates, because bosses will have to pay migrants top whack, which they will only do if they simply canāt attract a settled worker).
Why do people find it so easy to conceive of putting up walls, increasing the size of the border agency tenfold, and so forth, but so inconceivable to think about just legislating a minimum wage rate for a sector?
As I said yes great letās double the minimum wage.What do you think will happen then āifā we donāt close the borders to the even bigger resulting flood of immigrants looking for more than they get at home.To which your answer is not only leave the door open but letās open it to Turkey as well.
Winseer:
To suggest that British workers will āNo longer be entitled to holiday pay as full timersā though - beggars belief.
Itās not that unbelievable. Remember rolled-up holiday pay, where bosses tried to say the new holiday pay was already included as part of the existing going rate (and it was the workerās responsibility to bank this and draw it down during any holidays they took)?
IIRC the case went all the way up before the European courts knocked the practice on its head.
Carryfast:
Rjan:
OVLOV JAY:
Did you want to get down off that high horse and put my quote back into the context you took it out of?What was out of context?
Itās a straightforward question about whether your anti-immigration stance (and that of most here) really goes any deeper than the effect on wages (or other economic issues like housing or public services)?
I mean, if youāre a banana-throwing member of the master race (and Iām not suggesting you are), that kind of anti-immigrant stance comes from a completely different place than sensible people who just donāt want their wages and conditions to be undercut.
Which part of,we also donāt want the demographic,locally or nationally,of the country changed to the point where the indigenous population become foreigners in our own country,donāt you understand.
So you are a banana-thrower. I canāt say I was expecting that. The reality is that the demographic hasnāt changed appreciably - I canāt recall ever meeting an immigrant who couldnāt speak English, much less one whose way of life was displeasingly different from the settled norm.
And as far as EU migration is concerned, I mean itās just absurd to argue that thereās any difference - at least I could accept that peasants from Afghanistan may have come from a radically different culture to ours (and refugees from beyond Europe may not even have come to Europe entirely willingly, but as an alternative to death and catastrophe).
But the Polish, the Greeks, and the Portugese? These arenāt the backwaters of the world - theyāre modern industrial nations, with public education, rule of law, and so forth!
Also, indigenous markets (particularly in jobs and housing) have done as much to destroy peopleās participation in communities and settled ways of life as supposedly any immigrants have. Kids are going to school again with holes in their shoes. Families are roaming the streets when they canāt pay rent or when the landlord wants to sell up. Are you saying that immigrants next door have more bearing on poor families participation in the āBritish way of lifeā than joblessness, unsettled tenancies, and grinding poverty?
Among other issues like at what point do you call it an over populated small Island which has to say enough at some point bearing in mind a population of 65,000,000 and climbing.
Utter rubbish. We are not even remotely over-populated - Iām sure this myth has arisen simply because we arenāt building enough houses, and the wealthy in the countryside trying to argue that the place is āoverpopulatedā if there is a house to be seen within 100 miles of their bedroom window.
Carryfast:
As I said yes great letās double the minimum wage.
And what is wrong with that? Most of us arenāt being paid minimum wage, so if the new sector-minimum wage is simply set at the rate weāre getting, then it doesnāt upset any applecarts. All it does is drive out the minority of employers who depend on undercutting for their survival, and drives out any migrants who are employed at less than the going rate.
What do you think will happen then āifā we donāt close the borders to the even bigger resulting flood of immigrants looking for more than they get at home.To which your answer is not only leave the door open but letās open it to Turkey as well.
But they only find so many jobs here because they undercut the going rate and displace settled workers - and employers only employ so many people with half-decent language skills and questionable training and experience because they are so much cheaper.
Once displacement is eliminated from the market, the actual influx of immigrants would be much reduced to a natural and healthy rate. A million of them could turn up here, but if bosses canāt use them to undercut, then they arenāt going to find the work they seek. And because settled workers will have no problem finding good work at a good rate, settled workers will have good attitudes and motivation to work, and will be competing on equal terms with any migrant - whereas if the migrant is willing to accept half of what the settled worker wants for the same work, then the settled worker is not competing on equal terms.
Oh god thatās another thread dead and buried . When those two get started i lose the will to live .
"Mike Ashley has admitted that Sports Direct effectively paid less than the national minimum wage and is in talks about compensating warehouse employees following a Guardian investigation last year that revealed the company was paying less than the legal minimum.
Ashley admitted at a āspecific timeā that Sports Direct effectively paid staff less than the minimum wage because they were searched by security before leaving the companyās warehouse at the end of their shift. He said that HMRC were investigating the company and it is in talks about a deal to offer backpay to staff".
Rjan +1 on your comments, very reasonable and cool headed. I donāt believe for a second UK will gain strength and independence from Brexit, quite the opposite, every big country/union/business will have their way with UK in negotiating trade, migrants, healthcare etc.
Iāve read some news about the falling pound and housing bubble and its not even 23rd of Juneā¦
Rjan:
Carryfast:
Rjan:
OVLOV JAY:
Did you want to get down off that high horse and put my quote back into the context you took it out of?What was out of context?
Itās a straightforward question about whether your anti-immigration stance (and that of most here) really goes any deeper than the effect on wages (or other economic issues like housing or public services)?
I mean, if youāre a banana-throwing member of the master race (and Iām not suggesting you are), that kind of anti-immigrant stance comes from a completely different place than sensible people who just donāt want their wages and conditions to be undercut.
Which part of,we also donāt want the demographic,locally or nationally,of the country changed to the point where the indigenous population become foreigners in our own country,donāt you understand.
So you are a banana-thrower. I canāt say I was expecting that. The reality is that the demographic hasnāt changed appreciably - I canāt recall ever meeting an immigrant who couldnāt speak English, much less one whose way of life was displeasingly different from the settled norm.
And as far as EU migration is concerned, I mean itās just absurd to argue that thereās any difference - at least I could accept that peasants from Afghanistan may have come from a radically different culture to ours (and refugees from beyond Europe may not even have come to Europe entirely willingly, but as an alternative to death and catastrophe).
But the Polish, the Greeks, and the Portugese? These arenāt the backwaters of the world - theyāre modern industrial nations, with public education, rule of law, and so forth!
Also, indigenous markets (particularly in jobs and housing) have done as much to destroy peopleās participation in communities and settled ways of life as supposedly any immigrants have. Kids are going to school again with holes in their shoes. Families are roaming the streets when they canāt pay rent or when the landlord wants to sell up. Are you saying that immigrants next door have more bearing on poor families participation in the āBritish way of lifeā than joblessness, unsettled tenancies, and grinding poverty?
Among other issues like at what point do you call it an over populated small Island which has to say enough at some point bearing in mind a population of 65,000,000 and climbing.
Utter rubbish. We are not even remotely over-populated - Iām sure this myth has arisen simply because we arenāt building enough houses, and the wealthy in the countryside trying to argue that the place is āoverpopulatedā if there is a house to be seen within 100 miles of their bedroom window.
If you really think that 65,000,000 on a small Island isnāt enough then exactly how many do want.
As for your bs Socialist equating of wealthy with countryside or that demographics arenāt altered by immigration suggest you check out the fate of Middlesex among other over developed immigrant ghettoes which is the logical conclusion of your ideas.
On that note itās the countryside that feeds you not housing estates.While if you really must turn what remains of the country into Baghdad or Islamabad then do it in Scotland where no doubt Sturgeon will welcome it with open arms.
Rjan:
Carryfast:
As I said yes great letās double the minimum wage.And what is wrong with that? Most of us arenāt being paid minimum wage, so if the new sector-minimum wage is simply set at the rate weāre getting, then it doesnāt upset any applecarts. All it does is drive out the minority of employers who depend on undercutting for their survival, and drives out any migrants who are employed at less than the going rate.
What do you think will happen then āifā we donāt close the borders to the even bigger resulting flood of immigrants looking for more than they get at home.To which your answer is not only leave the door open but letās open it to Turkey as well.
But they only find so many jobs here because they undercut the going rate and displace settled workers - and employers only employ so many people with half-decent language skills and questionable training and experience because they are so much cheaper.
Once displacement is eliminated from the market, the actual influx of immigrants would be much reduced to a natural and healthy rate. A million of them could turn up here, but if bosses canāt use them to undercut, then they arenāt going to find the work they seek. And because settled workers will have no problem finding good work at a good rate, settled workers will have good attitudes and motivation to work, and will be competing on equal terms with any migrant - whereas if the migrant is willing to accept half of what the settled worker wants for the same work, then the settled worker is not competing on equal terms.
If we double the āminimum wageā they wonāt be able to under cut the wage level.What will happpen is that theyāll flood into the country in even greater numbers to take advantage of the higher wage.
So there we have it.Socialist economics and logic in action double the minimum wage and open the door to Turkey ( effectively the whole of Asia ) not just East Europe. 
OVLOV JAY:
alix776:
Thatās a national issue nothing to do with the eu. oh enjoy the more expensive holidays abroad and you phone will require world data not eu which is 5 times the price of eu.Because the aviation industry has gone the way they want haulage to go, a race to the bottom free for all. Iāll choose to protect my wages rather than air fares. And if itās more expensive to holiday in Spain than the us, then Iāll go to the latter. As for mobile data, Iām of a mind set that Iām on holiday. I donāt need to know how my mates getting on tipping nw10 while Iām round the pool, so Iāll wait for the free wifi in the bar thanks
You missed the boat by 15 years then as this what has happened over that time its been a race to tue bottom since the early 2000ās
alix776:
its been a race to tue bottom since the early 2000ās
Being that we joined the EU in 1973 that would obviously equate to EU membership being the problem not the solution.