So If We Leave

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
61

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:
I haven’t overlooked that in the slightest, once again you’ve proving that your knowledge is limited on the subject of GB domestic hours, despite always banging on about them and we should run on them.

The 11 hours is driving + other work, breaks don’t count.

If painting the full picture that you’ve left out to suit your agenda or due to lack of knowledge, makes me an in campaigner, then an in campaigner I must be

Leave it out.11 hours + 1 hour break = a 12 hour overall shift.If you feel like having 2 hours off in breaks that’s still a lot less than the EU 15 hour day obtainable with 9 hours reduced daily rest.Yes the in campaign for people who don’t do maths.

You missed out guvnor for full comedy value, never mind!

What about if you racked up 5 hours of break during the day whilst you were being tipped?

62

stevieboy308:

Carryfast:
Leave it out.11 hours + 1 hour break = a 12 hour overall shift.If you feel like having 2 hours off in breaks that’s still a lot less than the EU 15 hour day obtainable with 9 hours reduced daily rest.Yes the in campaign for people who don’t do maths.

What about if you racked up 5 hours of break during the day whilst you were being tipped?

Depends if anyone is daft enough to call 4 hours of duty/so called ‘POA’ ‘break’ and then subtract it from the available 11 hours duty time thereby over looking the definition of ‘adequate’ rest.15 hour days/9 hours daily rest obviously failing that on both counts and arguably illegal by the spirit,if not the letter,of domestic regs.

63

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:

Carryfast:
Leave it out.11 hours + 1 hour break = a 12 hour overall shift.If you feel like having 2 hours off in breaks that’s still a lot less than the EU 15 hour day obtainable with 9 hours reduced daily rest.Yes the in campaign for people who don’t do maths.

What about if you racked up 5 hours of break during the day whilst you were being tipped?

Depends if anyone is daft enough to call 4 hours of duty/so called ‘POA’ ‘break’ and then subtract it from the available 11 hours duty time thereby over looking the definition of ‘adequate’ rest.15 hour days/9 hours daily rest obviously failing that on both counts and arguably illegal by the spirit,if not the letter,of domestic regs.

Is it daft to put it on break if you’re not driving and not doing any work, you could have a kip or have a read of the paper? Maybe in your world, but putting it on break, when you’re having a break, that you’re legally entitled to do, doesn’t really register on my daft scale.

I don’t think having 9 hours rest on domestic will normally be classed as failing the adequate rest test due ot it being the minimum allowed under eu rules that most truckers work under.

I don’t see how it’s illegal in the spirit of the domestic regs as they don’t set out a shift length, just how much work you can do in a 24 hour period
They even say, as I’m sure you’ll know already! That if you don’t drive for more than 4 hours on each day of a week, then that week won’t have any duty limits

64

stevieboy308:

Carryfast:
Depends if anyone is daft enough to call 4 hours of duty/so called ‘POA’ ‘break’ and then subtract it from the available 11 hours duty time thereby over looking the definition of ‘adequate’ rest.15 hour days/9 hours daily rest obviously failing that on both counts and arguably illegal by the spirit,if not the letter,of domestic regs.

Is it daft to put it on break if you’re not driving and not doing any work, you could have a kip or have a read of the paper? Maybe in your world, but putting it on break, when you’re having a break, that you’re legally entitled to do, doesn’t really register on my daft scale.

I don’t think having 9 hours rest on domestic will normally be classed as failing the adequate rest test due ot it being the minimum allowed under eu rules that most truckers work under.

I don’t see how it’s illegal in the spirit of the domestic regs as they don’t set out a shift length, just how much work you can do in a 24 hour period
They even say, as I’m sure you’ll know already! That if you don’t drive for more than 4 hours on each day of a week, then that week won’t have any duty limits

Assuming that anyone is trying to record break,in place of ( what should be ) recorded as duty ( standby/‘poa’ ),to massively increase/circumvent the daily duty limit,that is obviously a case of outside the spirit of the domestic hours regs.While if they were drafted to allow 15 hour shifts they obviously wouldn’t bother to stipulate 11 hours max daily duty combined with the reference to ‘adequate’ rest.

As for no duty limit in the case of less than 4 hours driving again that doesn’t mean carte blanche to work 15 hours per day.Bearing in mind that driving while too tired to drive is just as much an offence under domestic regs as it is under EU.In which case in neither case will reference to max hours limits be any defence or therefore of any relevance.While as I said domestic regs actually provide far more scope for saying no in that regard than the reduced daily rest provision does within the EU regs.

65

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:

Carryfast:
Depends if anyone is daft enough to call 4 hours of duty/so called ‘POA’ ‘break’ and then subtract it from the available 11 hours duty time thereby over looking the definition of ‘adequate’ rest.15 hour days/9 hours daily rest obviously failing that on both counts and arguably illegal by the spirit,if not the letter,of domestic regs.

Is it daft to put it on break if you’re not driving and not doing any work, you could have a kip or have a read of the paper? Maybe in your world, but putting it on break, when you’re having a break, that you’re legally entitled to do, doesn’t really register on my daft scale.

I don’t think having 9 hours rest on domestic will normally be classed as failing the adequate rest test due ot it being the minimum allowed under eu rules that most truckers work under.

I don’t see how it’s illegal in the spirit of the domestic regs as they don’t set out a shift length, just how much work you can do in a 24 hour period
They even say, as I’m sure you’ll know already! That if you don’t drive for more than 4 hours on each day of a week, then that week won’t have any duty limits

Assuming that anyone is trying to record break,in place of ( what should be ) recorded as duty ( standby/‘poa’ ),to massively increase/circumvent the daily duty limit,that is obviously a case of outside the spirit of the domestic hours regs.While if they were drafted to allow 15 hour shifts they obviously wouldn’t bother to stipulate 11 hours max daily duty combined with the reference to ‘adequate’ rest.

As for no duty limit in the case of less than 4 hours driving again that doesn’t mean carte blanche to work 15 hours per day.Bearing in mind that driving while too tired to drive is just as much an offence under domestic regs as it is under EU.In which case in neither case will reference to max hours limits be any defence or therefore of any relevance.While as I said domestic regs actually provide far more scope for saying no in that regard than the reduced daily rest provision does within the EU regs.

Go on carryfast, please try to convince me that having a kip whilst waiting to be loaded should be recorded as other work and it’s wrong to record that time as break.

I don’t understand what you’re struggling with as regard the no limit on duty

66

del949:
I always assumed that domestic rules were simply the old (pre EU) rules. But on Googling them it seems that they are not, perhaps this is confusing some to think that a “return” to domestic would mean a return to “pre EU”, which it wouldn’t.
In any case, if leaving the EU the Govt would have so much to sort out that transport regulations (apart from cross border movement of goods) would be way down the list of things to do.

Why would it take anything more than just an administrative change removing all EU directives from the drivers’ hours regs regime.To be replaced with domestic regs for domestic operations and at most compliance with AETR/EU regs regarding international operations.Although as I’ve said there is no requirement for compliance with tachograph fitment,or any other EU vehicle type approval regs,regarding temporary entry as part of an international journey,whether own account or commercial hire and reward.

67

stevieboy308:
Go carryfast, please try to convince me that having a kip whilst waiting to be loaded should be recorded as other work and it’s wrong to record that time as break.

I don’t understand what you’re struggling with as regard the no limit on duty

As I said it all gets a lot easier to understand when you look at the maximum 11 hour daily duty limit as being a minimum daily ( adequate ) rest limit by default.In just the same way that the 9 hour minimum daily rest limit is a maximum daily duty limit by default.Are you suggesting that 9 hours spent waiting for a call to leave the bay would count as daily rest and you can then start a new shift.Especially assuming that VOSA decide to ask you to prove that the 9 hours in question didn’t involve anything which could be termed as ‘duty’ or ‘standby’/ ‘poa’.

As for no duty limit see above.No that doesn’t mean spending 12,let alone 21,hours waiting for a delayed load on a loading dock,or for that matter doing other work,and then driving 3 hours to get back to base. :unamused:

While as I said driving while tired is an offence which trumps all hours regs.In which case the ‘adequate’ rest provision contained in domestic regs is better when it comes to saying no than the stated unrealistically low 9 hours minimum daily rest contained in the EU regs.

68

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:
Go carryfast, please try to convince me that having a kip whilst waiting to be loaded should be recorded as other work and it’s wrong to record that time as break.

I don’t understand what you’re struggling with as regard the no limit on duty

As I said it all gets a lot easier to understand when you look at the maximum 11 hour daily duty limit as being a minimum daily ( adequate ) rest limit by default.In just the same way that the 9 hour minimum daily rest limit is a maximum daily duty limit by default.Are you suggesting that 9 hours spent waiting for a call to leave the bay would count as daily rest and you can then start a new shift.Especially assuming that VOSA decide to ask you to prove that the 9 hours in question didn’t involve anything which could be termed as ‘duty’ or ‘standby’/ ‘poa’.

As for no duty limit see above.No that doesn’t mean spending 12,let alone 21,hours waiting for a delayed load on a loading dock,or for that matter doing other work,and then driving 3 hours to get back to base. :unamused:

While as I said driving while tired is an offence which trumps all hours regs.In which case the ‘adequate’ rest provision contained in domestic regs is better when it comes to saying no than the stated unrealistically low 9 hours minimum daily rest contained in the EU regs.

I’d argue that it’s easier to understand when people stop making stuff up.

You’ve just invented a minimum daily rest into domestic regs, there isn’t one. you will keep struggling like you are until you accept this.

The 11 duty is driving + other work, again until you accept this you will only remain confused on the matter.

The difference between a 9 hour min rest effectively giving a max of 15 on eu is the 9 hours is 9 hours, start the 9 hours at midnight, at 0900 the 9 hours is up. The 11 max duty, can spread more than the 11 hours (because any time spent on break stops the 11 hour clock) and there’s no limit on the spread, so long as you have adequate rest.

If you’re talking about 9 off on a bay for eu rules. Then if you’ve not been able to dispose of your time as you wish. Then it wouldn’t be a rest as I’m sure you know.

The no limit on duty is just that, if you don’t drive for more than 4 hours each day of the week then that week each day doesn’t have a limit on duty. That doesn’t mean you can drive tired obviously, you could drive one hour, spend, say 12 hours digging a ditch, then drive one hour back, no breaks needed

69

Carryfast:

volvo2:
As for making it hard for our trade I doubt if they will do so as we could retaliate and Germany eg has abillions of pounds of trade with us so would merkel throw the dummy out shoot herself in the foot and cause companies in Germany to collapse causing german unemployment. I doubt it. This is just scaremongering Look at the amount of foreign trucks on our roads daily they need our business we need theirs so we would all have to come to a deal.
I am no expert but I keep seeing this in my head am I having delusions at the thought of getting away from the gravy train for the faceless men in their ivory towers.

The remainers keep banging on about the same bs that we’re a relatively small export market for the EU as a whole compared to others.While conveniently ignoring the disproportionate amount of that figure made up by UK imports of German products.While net trade deficit with the EU means net trade deficit with the EU regardless of how Cameron tries to make it look otherwise.While the majority of our exports don’t go the EU.

we’ve ALL/ only been in since 1993 anyway. :grimacing: so it’s all BS! OUT

70

stevieboy308:
I’d argue that it’s easier to understand when people stop making stuff up.

You’ve just invented a minimum daily rest into domestic regs, there isn’t one. you will keep struggling like you are until you accept this.

The 11 duty is driving + other work, again until you accept this you will only remain confused on the matter.

The difference between a 9 hour min rest effectively giving a max of 15 on eu is the 9 hours is 9 hours, start the 9 hours at midnight, at 0900 the 9 hours is up. The 11 max duty, can spread more than the 11 hours (because any time spent on break stops the 11 hour clock) and there’s no limit on the spread, so long as you have adequate rest.

If you’re talking about 9 off on a bay for eu rules. Then if you’ve not been able to dispose of your time as you wish. Then it wouldn’t be a rest as I’m sure you know.

The no limit on duty is just that, if you don’t drive for more than 4 hours each day of the week then that week each day doesn’t have a limit on duty. That doesn’t mean you can drive tired obviously, you could drive one hour, spend, say 12 hours digging a ditch, then drive one hour back, no breaks needed

It’s obvious that the ‘spirit’ of domestic regs is that ‘working day’ means the 24 hour period from start time and 11 hours maximum duty means 13 hours made up of daily rest and break.Which realistically means more than the 9 hours minimum daily rest provided by EU regs.Unless you’re seriously suggesting that anyone needs more than 1-2 hours break per day.

As we’re obviously agreed that time spent on a bay in most cases won’t satisfy daily rest rules.Then why the double standards according to you of it supposedly not counting as duty under domestic regs.

71

The remain lot create a lot of noise about how it would hurt us to leave because of the effect on trade.
They neglect to mention that, as a proportion of our total exports, we send less to the EU now than we did when we voted to remain in 1972, so even if all trade ceased overnight (which it won’t) we still have the whole rest of the world as our market.
That, plus the end of our being a net cash contributor to the EU (in terms of membership fees minus receipts for ‘European projects’), and the fact that the EU’s upper house is unelected, is why I’ll be voting “leave”.
I know our own upper house is also unelected, but at least the Lords are all British - I can count on them doing what’s best for Britain a lot more than some Turk or Estonian with chip on his or her shoulder.
I am happy to remain in a common market (which is, after all what was sold to the British public when they voted to be in all those years ago. The trouble is that the EU has been hijacked by trendy wendies and other factions who dream of a federal United States of Europe. I don’t want that.

72

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:
I’d argue that it’s easier to understand when people stop making stuff up.

You’ve just invented a minimum daily rest into domestic regs, there isn’t one. you will keep struggling like you are until you accept this.

The 11 duty is driving + other work, again until you accept this you will only remain confused on the matter.

The difference between a 9 hour min rest effectively giving a max of 15 on eu is the 9 hours is 9 hours, start the 9 hours at midnight, at 0900 the 9 hours is up. The 11 max duty, can spread more than the 11 hours (because any time spent on break stops the 11 hour clock) and there’s no limit on the spread, so long as you have adequate rest.

If you’re talking about 9 off on a bay for eu rules. Then if you’ve not been able to dispose of your time as you wish. Then it wouldn’t be a rest as I’m sure you know.

The no limit on duty is just that, if you don’t drive for more than 4 hours each day of the week then that week each day doesn’t have a limit on duty. That doesn’t mean you can drive tired obviously, you could drive one hour, spend, say 12 hours digging a ditch, then drive one hour back, no breaks needed

It’s obvious that the ‘spirit’ of domestic regs is that ‘working day’ means the 24 hour period from start time and 11 hours maximum duty means 13 hours made up of daily rest and break.Which realistically means more than the 9 hours minimum daily rest provided by EU regs.Unless you’re seriously suggesting that anyone needs more than 1-2 hours break per day.

As we’re obviously agreed that time spent on a bay in most cases won’t satisfy daily rest rules.Then why the double standards according to you of it supposedly not counting as duty under domestic regs.

Dude, seriously, stop making stuff up!

It’s not the spirit of the regs, it is the regs! But you were doing well with your 13 hours made up of break and rest. But then you start with the bs again saying that realistically means 9+ rest, no it doesn’t. It’s not about a need to have more than 1 - 2 break a day, but then again if you’re tired, you wouldn’t wanna drive tired would ya?! It’s about if you do have x amount of break.

But as I’m sure you’ll agree, you’re quite entitled to have a break on a bay for eu, so where is the double standards?

73

stevieboy308:

Carryfast:
It’s obvious that the ‘spirit’ of domestic regs is that ‘working day’ means the 24 hour period from start time and 11 hours maximum duty means 13 hours made up of daily rest and break.Which realistically means more than the 9 hours minimum daily rest provided by EU regs.Unless you’re seriously suggesting that anyone needs more than 1-2 hours break per day.

As we’re obviously agreed that time spent on a bay in most cases won’t satisfy daily rest rules.Then why the double standards according to you of it supposedly not counting as duty under domestic regs.

Dude, seriously, stop making stuff up!

It’s not the spirit of the regs, it is the regs! But you were doing well with your 13 hours made up of break and rest. But then you start with the bs again saying that realistically means 9+ rest, no it doesn’t. It’s not about a need to have more than 1 - 2 break a day, but then again if you’re tired, you wouldn’t wanna drive tired would ya?! It’s about if you do have x amount of break.

But as I’m sure you’ll agree, you’re quite entitled to have a break on a bay for eu, so where is the double standards?

You’re the one who’s trying to ‘make up’ the idea that 11 hours maximum duty in a 24 hour period from starting doesn’t mean more than 9 hours minimum daily rest,not me.As I said if the spirit of the regs meant using bs break time to create 11 hours of duty spread over 24 hours :open_mouth: :laughing: don’t you think that’s what the regs would have actually said.As opposed to 11 hours maximum daily duty and ‘adequate’ ( daily ) ‘rest’.

74

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:

Carryfast:
It’s obvious that the ‘spirit’ of domestic regs is that ‘working day’ means the 24 hour period from start time and 11 hours maximum duty means 13 hours made up of daily rest and break.Which realistically means more than the 9 hours minimum daily rest provided by EU regs.Unless you’re seriously suggesting that anyone needs more than 1-2 hours break per day.

As we’re obviously agreed that time spent on a bay in most cases won’t satisfy daily rest rules.Then why the double standards according to you of it supposedly not counting as duty under domestic regs.

Dude, seriously, stop making stuff up!

It’s not the spirit of the regs, it is the regs! But you were doing well with your 13 hours made up of break and rest. But then you start with the bs again saying that realistically means 9+ rest, no it doesn’t. It’s not about a need to have more than 1 - 2 break a day, but then again if you’re tired, you wouldn’t wanna drive tired would ya?! It’s about if you do have x amount of break.

But as I’m sure you’ll agree, you’re quite entitled to have a break on a bay for eu, so where is the double standards?

You’re the one who’s trying to ‘make up’ the idea that 11 hours maximum duty in a 24 hour period from starting doesn’t mean more than 9 hours minimum daily rest,not me.As I said if the spirit of the regs meant using bs break time to create 11 hours of duty spread over 24 hours :open_mouth: :laughing: don’t you think that’s what the regs would have actually said.As opposed to 11 hours maximum daily duty and ‘adequate’ ( daily ) ‘rest’.

You get quite funny when you’ve lost can argument!!

I’m the one bs ing, but where have you plucked the 9 hours from?

75

No one cared for tacho rules before when they ran bent for a crap wage which why wages are crap now.Think how many drivers ran bent if they change the tacho rules it will go back to it .So if the laws changed it will still be full of bs and more than likely drivers will get treated worse than they do now.

76

I work in an industry where we rrarely go anywhere near duty time but will put 8 hours driving in a nine hour spread.
R
That’s not the norm and a box jockey on more hours will probably be more chilled than me.
The tach rules ain’t perfect but is rather have them than log books here as there’s to many super truckers want to work 24/7 for a flash motor

77

Colin_scottish:
No one cared for tacho rules before when they ran bent for a crap wage hence why wages are crap now.So if the laws changed it will still be full of bs and more than likely drivers will get treated worse than they do now.

Yoohoo, waves :sunglasses: :laughing: …I ran straight on log books on proper domestic hours of 12.5 hour max working day, my so called crap wage averaged out @ £96 a week in 1976/7 plus nights out on general haulage.
For comparison sake, my first house a 3 bed semi new build cost £9300 in '76.

Some like to say everyone ran bent in those days, and into the frisbee tacho eras, no we didn’t, though its fair to say there have always been cowboy outfits and all flash no cash mobs and daresay there always will be so long as they can get people to do it.

78

stevieboy308:
I’m the one bs ing, but where have you plucked the 9 hours from?

I was referring to the minimum ‘9’ hours daily rest period.As in what the EU deems as sufficient.Bearing in mind that not everyone works to your bs idea of sleeping all day on a loading dock during the obviously remaining 15 hour shift time.

79

kr79:
I work in an industry where we rrarely go anywhere near duty time but will put 8 hours driving in a nine hour spread.
R
That’s not the norm and a box jockey on more hours will probably be more chilled than me.
The tach rules ain’t perfect but is rather have them than log books here as there’s to many super truckers want to work 24/7 for a flash motor

The ‘super truckers’ do just fine by maxing out the legal hours that the EU gives them.The problem being that EU regs and tachos mean that plenty of others are lumbered with no choice.While the ones that want to work 24/7 ain’t going to let a tacho stop them.

80

Juddian:

Colin_scottish:
No one cared for tacho rules before when they ran bent for a crap wage hence why wages are crap now.So if the laws changed it will still be full of bs and more than likely drivers will get treated worse than they do now.

Yoohoo, waves :sunglasses: :laughing: …I ran straight on log books on proper domestic hours of 12.5 hour max working day, my so called crap wage averaged out @ £96 a week in 1976/7 plus nights out on general haulage.
For comparison sake, my first house a 3 bed semi new build cost £9300 in '76.

Some like to say everyone ran bent in those days, and into the frisbee tacho eras, no we didn’t, though its fair to say there have always been cowboy outfits and all flash no cash mobs and daresay there always will be so long as they can get people to do it.

The only ‘bent’ running I remember on log books was booking extra break as driving or duty. :wink: :laughing: