Checks page count.
WOW, 14 pages.
Sees Carryfast is involved.
Ahhhh, that explains it 
What a lot of remain campaigners have forgotten, is that this referendum is effectively handing in our notice. We will still be part of the eu for two more years, while the exit plan is implemented. There will not be any Armageddon on the 24th or any other date for that âfactâ. If itâs looking like a no no, then the government of the day will have the chance to bring it back to the people. There wonât be any uncertainty for the 2 years until exit actually happens. A vote for brexit is no vote for uncertainty
OVLOV JAY:
What a lot of remain campaigners have forgotten, is that this referendum is effectively handing in our notice. We will still be part of the eu for two more years, while the exit plan is implemented. There will not be any Armageddon on the 24th or any other date for that âfactâ. If itâs looking like a no no, then the government of the day will have the chance to bring it back to the people. There wonât be any uncertainty for the 2 years until exit actually happens. A vote for brexit is no vote for uncertainty
They have not forgotten it, they have deliberately chosen not to mention it. They are terrified that they will have to implement plan B if there is a leave vote. Plan B being the EUâs normal default strategy, ie wrong answer do it again, only this time we will alter the question and the terms slightly. They will go blue in the face denying this, but they will never give up without another fight and they have those two years to pre-condition us to their way of thinking.
OVLOV JAY:
If itâs looking like a no no, then the government of the day will have the chance to bring it back to the people.
That would obviously be a case of snatching definite defeat from the jaws of possible victory for the out campaign.IE that gives Cameron carte blanche to stay where he is in control and do what the bankers are telling him to do.Bearing in mind that the in campaignâs whole case is that Brexit is a no no.
Realistically itâs a case of a Brexit vote is followed by Cameronâs and Osborneâs resignation and weâre out no ifs no buts.Or donât bother stay where we are and let the German AfD and the French FN among others do the job properly some time in the future.Hopefully with the help of whatever Nationalist side we end up with here.
I agree with the fact that call me Dave and George the butcher will be gone, and Iâd say gone by lunchtime on the 24th. I was just dangling the carrot of a dangerous truth to the remain side. The fact is itâs a dangerous prospect that has happened in other eu referendums. An awkward truth if you will that remain want to ignore, as it dismantles the Armageddon theories, and also cements the corruption angles that anyone to the east of extreme left can see
cav551:
OVLOV JAY:
What a lot of remain campaigners have forgotten, is that this referendum is effectively handing in our notice. We will still be part of the eu for two more years, while the exit plan is implemented. There will not be any Armageddon on the 24th or any other date for that âfactâ. If itâs looking like a no no, then the government of the day will have the chance to bring it back to the people. There wonât be any uncertainty for the 2 years until exit actually happens. A vote for brexit is no vote for uncertaintyThey have not forgotten it, they have deliberately chosen not to mention it. They are terrified that they will have to implement plan B if there is a leave vote. Plan B being the EUâs normal default strategy, ie wrong answer do it again, only this time we will alter the question and the terms slightly. They will go blue in the face denying this, but they will never give up without another fight and they have those two years to pre-condition us to their way of thinking.
Realistically if we donât get the radical approach of removing Cameron and putting in a Euro Sceptic cabinet that is prepared to tear up all the post referendum stalling period and phoney exit,the whole thing is a sham and a waste of time.
In which the breakup of the EU can then only realistically be something that can take place later on a much bigger and much more volatile stage,when the end game of forcing a USE and Merkelâs Eurasian plan on the European population,actually plays out.
My money would be on the latter at this point unless we get the soft landing of a ârealâ Brexit followed by Frexit which will smash the EU in a much more stable way.
Rjan:
Winseer:
Students are asking the big questions: "What well-paid job do I get when I leave uni when I now have to compete with an equally qualified Spanish Engineer/Italian Geologist etc. who can speak four languages when I am equally qualified, but can barely speak my own language?" I donât thinkk this particular student can be counted on by remain to be blindly voting for EU for âMore of THAT sameâ.But are students really competing against Spanish engineers and Italian geologists? And are the Spanish and Italians really to blame for lumbering students with tens of thousands of pounds worth of debt, or for laws (which are entirely under the control of Westminster today) that allow them to be hired on âinternshipsâ with no pay, or progress into âgraduateâ jobs which pay little, whilst executive pay reaches outer space?
Thankfully, youth seems to be the least taken in by the nonsense of the Brexit camp.
Iâm sure they think the 50% youth unemployment in Mediterannean countries - is all made up bull from the Brexit camp as well then eh?
with middle aged people - you can sell them âmore of the sameâ on the basis of âIf weâre not dying right now - I donât want to risk what I have on a dice roll, possibly ending up unimaginably even worse off than I am already.â
Students though? - They are going to see what they see from their own perspective. If they talk to foreign students at their own university and hear the tales of woe where âtop students with first-class degrees cannot aspire higher than flipping burgersâ - then what hope is there of British graduates getting ANY job inTHIS country worth having - let alone "getting a job in the free movement EU that weâre all being sold down the river for. Itâs an empty pot. There are no jobs over there, and the jobs over here are decreasing by the day - already taken up by perfectly legally immigrating students who then decide to stay on once that job using their actual degree is secured - IF they are lucky enough at that. 
Youâd have to be pretty weak minded indeed if you think the following truths are âspinâ or âBrexit Drivelâ:
Youth unemployment in the 50% range among mediterannean countriesâŚ
Unrestricted access to the UK for EU-born students coming over here to study, and get access to our jobs market
Students abusing the system - and bouncing British-born students even out of their UCAS allocated places
The unlevel playing field of Foreign students getting more help with in-work benefits/accommodation costs than home-born students - who get told "Your parents are well off - go the bank of Mum & Dad and do not pass go"
Well off? - Just because your house is worth half a million quid - that doesnât make you rich enough to get the things in life even bus driverâs kids used to get for free back in the 70âsâŚ
THe EUâs promises to the UK are mainly âJam Tomorrowâ arguments. Well: Weâve been in for years now - and the jam tomorrow STILL has not materialized to a point where itâs a no-brainer that we WOULD be better off with âever increasing Unionâ as pushed by the suited liars that have only their own interests - or at best the interests of other EU countries FIRST - at all times. That Union leaders have signed up to this idea that the EU is a good deal - really" is perhaps the worst lying betrayal of all. They should be supporting the interests of their work members who pay the subs - and yet they are selling their futures for what? Idle speculations that Brexit will involve the tearing up of Magna Cartaâ â ? - Not gonna happen! Itâs the Strasbourg HRC thatâs up for shredding - what with itâs âmore rights for criminals than victimsââŚ
Then thereâs the âNo more right to paid holidaysâ WTF? - Thatâs completely false! Even the most hard-line Tory Hitler-worshipping âJust Left of Genghis Khanâ right winger - has not even discussed putting such a thing on the cards. I suggest that the very notion is 100% Labour bull here.
Remain are lying whereas Brexit have doubts over what their exact figures are. At least Brexit have their minus and plus signs in the right places though!
I donât really care if the ÂŁ350m a week is actually only half that - itâs still a big plus of new money for other things in the UK. I doubt very much if EVERY PENNY of that money will be spent on the NHS, but Labour seize upon that notion as âNONEâ of it will be spent thus. Spin and bull yet again. Itâs as if half the Labour party want to oust Cameron (voting Brexit) and the other half want to get rid of Corbyn (Voting Remain, and then throwing him out with the bathwater between now and 2020 when itâs apparent weâve just made the biggest mistake since introducing the stamp act on the New England ColonistsâŚ
Detail Detail Detail. Something >82% true should be treated as NOT bull.
Something <2% true should be treated as 100% bovine extract though - and ignored in further discussions.
Carryfast:
cav551:
OVLOV JAY:
What a lot of remain campaigners have forgotten, is that this referendum is effectively handing in our notice. We will still be part of the eu for two more years, while the exit plan is implemented. There will not be any Armageddon on the 24th or any other date for that âfactâ. If itâs looking like a no no, then the government of the day will have the chance to bring it back to the people. There wonât be any uncertainty for the 2 years until exit actually happens. A vote for brexit is no vote for uncertaintyThey have not forgotten it, they have deliberately chosen not to mention it. They are terrified that they will have to implement plan B if there is a leave vote. Plan B being the EUâs normal default strategy, ie wrong answer do it again, only this time we will alter the question and the terms slightly. They will go blue in the face denying this, but they will never give up without another fight and they have those two years to pre-condition us to their way of thinking.
Realistically if we donât get the radical approach of removing Cameron and putting in a Euro Sceptic cabinet that is prepared to tear up all the post referendum stalling period and phoney exit,the whole thing is a sham and a waste of time.
In which the breakup of the EU can then only realistically be something that can take place later on a much bigger and much more volatile stage,when the end game of forcing a USE and Merkelâs Eurasian plan on the European population,actually plays out.
My money would be on the latter at this point unless we get the soft landing of a ârealâ Brexit followed by Frexit which will smash the EU in a much more stable way.
The thing is, because we lose money net on our EU trade right now - If we boycotted EU trade outright - weâd be making money AND time is on our side. Itâs for the EU to come to the UK with a ânew negotiation to get things moving againâ because so many of the EU nations are land-locked, and donât have access to the rest of the world like weâve had all along. All the UK needs to do is put on some extra sea to rest-of-world trade routes. We donât even need to buy everyday things like Fruit and Veg from the EU - although I strongly suspect theyâll be begging us to take it, as itâll get plowed back into the ground at their and their member nationâs expense each time if we DONâT buy it. It doesnât need any negotiation then to break off all trade with the EU overnight - IF thatâs the way THEY want to play it. The first sign of the EU trying to represent their busted flush as a straight flush - we just put them all in, and start making alternative arrangements. Weather they call or not - weâre already too far ahead to lose. The EU might beg the rest of the world to boycott UK goods to try and bull us into going back in⌠Really? We couldnât even get the rest of the world to ally up with us against Germany in BOTH world wars - until the damned wars were already past the tipping point in our favour!
In short, the rest of the world does NOT worship the EU - regardless of what meddlesome political feelings they have of their own towards the EU and against the UK.
Our security can only improve as well - once our security services are allowed to blow away that idiot in the suicide vest rather than dangerously attempt to take him alive - 'cos itâs against his human rights to blow away bad guys whilst weâre still in that chocolate teapot Strasbourg Human Rights CharterâŚ
Michael Portillo makes a good case for even people who want to stay in the EU to vote âleaveâ
tachograph:
Michael Portillo makes a good case for even people who want to stay in the EU to vote âleaveâ
That was the point I was trying to make earlier. There really isnât anything to fear for the remain voters. Everyone should be voting out. There is no Armageddon, and the eu wonât go quietly. They will beg us to stay, offering all sorts in a renegotiation, then hopefully the remain camp will see they did the right thing voting out, then we will have a unanimous out out
Yes. If we vote remain - and then the gloves come off at the EU, perhaps increasing our contributions significantly, or laying bare that all the bailouts that weâve already agreed to (already started) are ONGOING and require regular infusions our UK cash to keep going⌠Meaning more borrowings and more Austerity from Cameron & Osbourne whom now have to go nowhere because we let them win!
Remain is an empty pot. Thatâs what was found to be left inside when all the crap had been washed out of it.
Iâm of the opinion weâre more likely to see a war if we are in the eu. Albeit a civil one, as most of the fence sitters and a lot of hood winked remainers will join the rest of us, when things get to much. I wouldnât want to be the europhile squatting in number 10 when that happens
It wouldnât be a bad thing if the people started to rebel against the likes of the elitist tories, they all seem to forget they are in office to work for us, not get rich quick
OVLOV JAY:
Iâm of the opinion weâre more likely to see a war if we are in the eu. Albeit a civil one, as most of the fence sitters and a lot of hood winked remainers will join the rest of us, when things get to much. I wouldnât want to be the europhile squatting in number 10 when that happens
Yes. An interesting argument. If weâre OUT of the EU, then if the EU wanted say, a war over Russia invading the rest of Ukraine - theyâd NOT be able to ârope us into itâ. Perhaps Russia knows this - and with us ânot involvedâ from the start - might explain Putinâs eagerness to see the UK out of the EU.
Russia doesnât worry me though. I did all my worrying about Russia back in the 80âs thanks very much. âCold War Capersâ are well past their sell-by date at this point.
tommy t:
It wouldnât be a bad thing if the people started to rebel against the likes of the elitist tories, they all seem to forget they are in office to work for us, not get rich quick
I think the riots in 2011 show that the British public, when push comes to shove, wonât be bullied. Itâs was the presence of vigilantes on the streets that sorted the problem, not the met, even with their back up from across the country. It shows what we can do when the government canât look after our country
tachograph:
Michael Portillo makes a good case for even people who want to stay in the EU to vote âleaveâ
Which translates as the in campaign has run out of ideas and steam and itâs looking too marginal from their point of view.So letâs infiltrate the out campaign and then turn a potential out vote into a remain vote from within and by default.IE weâd be back where we started still stuck in the EU with the country split between leave v remain with the remainers using their out vote as leverage to keep the scam going.
Itâs also an admission that the plan is just another attempt at the Europhiles saying keep voting until we reach the right answer.Bearing in mind that if anyone believes that the EU will abandon its Socialist/Federalist agenda in favour of a Confederal Constitution, which gives the States supreme sovereignty in the form of individual unilateral right of opt out and substitution and VETO,theyâll believe anything.
Although a Confederal,as opposed to Federal,system of government is not even on the remain campaignâs agenda anyway.Because if it was âthatâsâ what Cameron would have been calling for in his ârenegotiationsâ.Which he knows he wonât get because the EU was always going to be a Socialist inspired Federal cluster zb from the outset and its inception by Communists like Altieri Spinelli.The plan now coming to a head having got ex stasi Merkel and Socialists like Juncker not to mention the Spinelli Group into a position of power and having started the process by invading Europe,with a ready made rabble that has historically shown its allegiance to the Socialist cause.
Which leaves the question what was Jean Monnetâs ârealâ connections with Bolshevik Russia and resulting agenda in Europe.Bearing in mind the story that he supposedly only went there because it was the only place that allowed remarriage,is about as believable as Cameronâs ârenegotiationsâ let alone Portilloâs bs.
Winseer:
OVLOV JAY:
Iâm of the opinion weâre more likely to see a war if we are in the eu. Albeit a civil one, as most of the fence sitters and a lot of hood winked remainers will join the rest of us, when things get to much. I wouldnât want to be the europhile squatting in number 10 when that happensYes. An interesting argument. If weâre OUT of the EU, then if the EU wanted say, a war over Russia invading the rest of Ukraine - theyâd NOT be able to ârope us into itâ. Perhaps Russia knows this - and with us ânot involvedâ from the start - might explain Putinâs eagerness to see the UK out of the EU.
Russia doesnât worry me though. I did all my worrying about Russia back in the 80âs thanks very much. âCold War Capersâ are well past their sell-by date at this point.
Firstly if/when the EU turns into the typical Nationalist v Federalist fight itâs more likely to be future generations that will be involved just like Yugoslavia took around 40-50 years to implode.The problem being that by then theyâll more likely to be fighting against an EU Federal army including immigrant Islamic Militia forces.The Cold War wasnât about fighting Russia it was about fighting Socialism.Which has now just changed tactics to that of infiltration which has long been a part of its armoury but only now being used to effect.
Thatâs actually kinda scary - because it implies that the EU has another decade left to it - even once weâre gone. 
Winseer:
Our security can only improve as well - once our security services are allowed to blow away that idiot in the suicide vest rather than dangerously attempt to take him alive - 'cos itâs against his human rights to blow away bad guys whilst weâre still in that chocolate teapot Strasbourg Human Rights CharterâŚ
Ha! You mean like that fella De Menezes? He was wearing a vest with wires coming out, wasnât he?
Winseer:
Thatâs actually kinda scary - because it implies that the EU has another decade left to it - even once weâre gone.
Not if out means out no ifs no buts the sooner the better.Hopefully including a change to a more Eurosceptic more cooperative domestic political climate along the lines of a Eurosceptic Con/UKIP/Lab coalition in which we re focus back on our place in EFTA.Possibly followed by Frexit and Danexit.Inevitably followed by Merkel being kicked out.