Cheers Juddian I’ll take a look. As one of the millions of wobblers who don’t know which way to turn (story of my life) I was wondering if we do stay in what better deal has our Dave negotiated for us.
I could look it up but prefer the points of view of my peers on here.
DD, keep an eye on Chris Grayling, senior Tory MP and outer…that’s real PM material if ever i saw it, rock steady calm and collected during that farce, made fair points without rhetoric…wouldn’t be disappointed at all should he get the PM’s job in due course.
blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2016/ … eferendum/
From Money Saving Expert, well worth a read for those still undecided.
As impartial as i’ve seen so far.
By the way, he comes down on the side of remain so this isn’t a suggested piece because he tells you what i want you to hear.
Its fair to say that both campaigns have got too hectic and shouty now, nice to have something sensible to read, even if i don’t necessarily agree with him.
Carryfast:
muckles:
I find the using wartime images and people telling me what they think my grandfathers generation would have thought a bit cheap and tacky. Millions of people were involved in the war effort in the UK, and no doubt they’d be as many differing views between them as there are today.
I can guess the views of both sets of my Grandparents and other relatives of that generation and I know for a fact they would have disagreed with each other on the subject.The questions is not what our Grandparents and in some cases Parents might think, but what will our future generations think if we get this vote wrong.
How can you get the question,of handing over the sovereignty of the country,wrong.There is only one answer.As for future generations you mean risk the threat of condemning them to a war of secession at some point.All for what.
People have differing opinions on what is best option.
Juddian:
http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2016/06/05/how-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/From Money Saving Expert, well worth a read for those still undecided.
As impartial as i’ve seen so far.By the way, he comes down on the side of remain so this isn’t a suggested piece because he tells you what i want you to hear.
Its fair to say that both campaigns have got too hectic and shouty now, nice to have something sensible to read, even if i don’t necessarily agree with him.
Massive +1
A good read and has helped a lot, gut instinct will play a massive part in this vote and ones own intestinal fortitude to see through the scaremongering from both sides.
I like many others are more likely to vote for a side that doesn’t scream like a split hymen as things ramp up. But as both will do this the choice gets harder.
One things for sure we are voting for our children’s future and must do so with the most informed and impartial information available.
But then is it even possible to find anyone impartial in all this.
Martin Lewis himself admits to being 55 vs 45% on his own decision to be an inny.
In reality the future of this country will be deceided on a 50/50 gamble. Maybe we should just toss a coin for it and use the money saved on feeding the homeless. 
muckles:
Carryfast:
How can you get the question,of handing over the sovereignty of the country,wrong.There is only one answer.As for future generations you mean risk the threat of condemning them to a war of secession at some point.All for what.People have differing opinions on what is best option.
I’m sure that’s what the mugs who followed Tito’s plans said.They were of course too old or no longer around to be the ones who got caught up in the inevitable breakdown.
del trotter:
Carryfast:
over loading by immigrants viewing it as the international health service.You do realise that the majority of immigrants coming into the country are not from the EU, and the issue of health tourism is predominately an issue with people from outside the EU, bearing in mind the NHS count ex pats living in Spain etc. as health tourist.
Regardless the cost of health tourism is minimal compared to the overall cost of the NHS, and the cause of its is issues is a lack of investment from numerous governments over the years of all colours.
So you’re saying that there’s no connection between non EU immigration and EU Socialist inspired immigration policy.Tell that to the Swedes and the Germans and by implication the rest of the EU states.While it’s EU human rights legislation that has more to do with us not being able to deport illegals.
Carryfast:
muckles:
Carryfast:
How can you get the question,of handing over the sovereignty of the country,wrong.There is only one answer.As for future generations you mean risk the threat of condemning them to a war of secession at some point.All for what.People have differing opinions on what is best option.
I’m sure that’s what the mugs who followed Tito’s plans said.They were of course too old or no longer around to be the ones who got caught up in the inevitable breakdown.
Whats that got to do with the price of fish?
Have you not noticed in your life that not everybody goes along with your view of the World?
And have you not noticed that sometimes they may have a point for thinking the way they do?
Juddian:
http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2016/06/05/how-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/From Money Saving Expert, well worth a read for those still undecided.
As impartial as i’ve seen so far.By the way, he comes down on the side of remain so this isn’t a suggested piece because he tells you what i want you to hear.
Its fair to say that both campaigns have got too hectic and shouty now, nice to have something sensible to read, even if i don’t necessarily agree with him.
To be fair the main reservations which I’ve got relate to the issue of the leave campaign wanting to import loads of ‘cheap’ agricultural produce from around the world.When that food is needed where it is produced in many cases such as the import of African beef.With obvious knock on effects regarding our own farming industry.Although that isn’t exactly an argument in favour of EU membership in any case.While the issue of sovereignty trumps everything or at least should do.
As for the economic ‘risks’ exactly what ‘risks’ are they talking about.Other than the banks exposure to the fortunes of the German economy.‘That’ being the economic issue that’s really bothering the bankers and applying in 1973 to date and nothing to do with the fact that we can’t make it on our own just as we did from 1945 to 1973 and importantly to much better prosperous effect.The fact is the economic argument concerning the EU is all about the bankers betting on Germany and screwing us in the process.On that note it would be interesting to find out the exact background of the money ‘expert’ in question and therefore maybe not as un biased as you might think.
muckles:
Whats that got to do with the price of fish?Have you not noticed in your life that not everybody goes along with your view of the World?
And have you not noticed that sometimes they may have a point for thinking the way they do?
As I said the Yugoslav example is a fact and the parallels with the EU too close for anyone with any sense to make the same stupid mistake again and expect a different outcome.On that note it’s a matter of national security and the future of the nation as a nation and therefore we shouldn’t even be having this discussion.
Carryfast:
del trotter:
Carryfast:
over loading by immigrants viewing it as the international health service.You do realise that the majority of immigrants coming into the country are not from the EU, and the issue of health tourism is predominately an issue with people from outside the EU, bearing in mind the NHS count ex pats living in Spain etc. as health tourist.
Regardless the cost of health tourism is minimal compared to the overall cost of the NHS, and the cause of its is issues is a lack of investment from numerous governments over the years of all colours.So you’re saying that there’s no connection between non EU immigration and EU Socialist inspired immigration policy.Tell that to the Swedes and the Germans and by implication the rest of the EU states.While it’s EU human rights legislation that has more to do with us not being able to deport illegals.
I’ll keep it simple so you understand, non EU migration is anybody coming to the UK from anywhere outside of the EU,USA, India, Aisa for example, now what does that have to do with EU policy and illegal immigration? 
Carryfast:
muckles:
Whats that got to do with the price of fish?Have you not noticed in your life that not everybody goes along with your view of the World?
And have you not noticed that sometimes they may have a point for thinking the way they do?As I said the Yugoslav example is a fact and the parallels with the EU too close for anyone with any sense to make the same stupid mistake again and expect a different outcome.On that note it’s a matter of national security and the future of the nation as a nation and therefore we shouldn’t even be having this discussion.
I hope your predictions are wrong and it would be wrong to dismiss them, Europe has been thrown into turmoil before. I think, unless there is a change of direction in the EU, there will be civil unrest in various countries, and judging by the fiasco of the handling of the immigrant situation over the last couple of years the EU can’t react quick enough to deal with a situation rapidly spiraling out of control.
But this is just an opinion, I can’t see into the future I doubt you can either, If I’m wrong why on earth do you spend so long on this website instead of making a fortune on the stock market, so you can buy all the trucks you want and drive them wherever you want?
muckles:
Carryfast:
muckles:
Whats that got to do with the price of fish?Have you not noticed in your life that not everybody goes along with your view of the World?
And have you not noticed that sometimes they may have a point for thinking the way they do?As I said the Yugoslav example is a fact and the parallels with the EU too close for anyone with any sense to make the same stupid mistake again and expect a different outcome.On that note it’s a matter of national security and the future of the nation as a nation and therefore we shouldn’t even be having this discussion.
I hope your predictions are wrong and it would be wrong to dismiss them, Europe has been thrown into turmoil before. I think, unless there is a change of direction in the EU, there will be civil unrest in various countries, and judging by the fiasco of the handling of the immigrant situation over the last couple of years the EU can’t react quick enough to deal with a situation rapidly spiraling out of control.
But this is just an opinion, I can’t see into the future I doubt you can either, If I’m wrong why on earth do you spend so long on this website instead of making a fortune on the stock market, so you can buy all the trucks you want and drive them wherever you want?
Your second paragraph contradicts the first one.So you’re saying that the risk of the first paragraph,that just being the inter ethnic dimension of the Yugoslav example not the sovereignty one,is worth taking.
As opposed to getting out of it and closing the borders.Together with the choice of put the economy back where it was in the 1960’s early 70’s.Hopefully smashing the EU Federal project in the process.
Or we sink financially under the weight of our trade deficits and resulting debt mountain which we’ve been under since 1973.In addition to all the above inter ethnic and sovereignty issues.IE a vote for in is the very real risk,if not probability,of a Yugoslav Federation type lose lose situation for future generations with no upsides at all for us.
del trotter:
I’ll keep it simple so you understand, non EU migration is anybody coming to the UK from anywhere outside of the EU,USA, India, Aisa for example, now what does that have to do with EU policy and illegal immigration?
You mean like all those ‘refugees’ who ex stasi Socialist Merkel has ‘invited’ in from Asia and Africa and is now expecting to be ‘distributed’ among EU states as she sees fit.
express.co.uk/news/world/654 … -World-War
breitbart.com/london/2016/01 … ts-hyenas/
theguardian.com/world/2015/a … stribution
Not to mention the fact that ‘outside’ the EU at the moment will mean ‘inside’ the EU when Turkey is fastracked into the Federalist/Socialist cluster zb thereby exposing Europe to Erdogan’s demographic takeover plans.
Meanwhile are you saying that there is no EU imposed human rights legislation stopping us from summarily deporting illegal immigrants under the Dublin agreements ?.
Carryfast:
muckles:
Carryfast:
muckles:
Whats that got to do with the price of fish?Have you not noticed in your life that not everybody goes along with your view of the World?
And have you not noticed that sometimes they may have a point for thinking the way they do?As I said the Yugoslav example is a fact and the parallels with the EU too close for anyone with any sense to make the same stupid mistake again and expect a different outcome.On that note it’s a matter of national security and the future of the nation as a nation and therefore we shouldn’t even be having this discussion.
I hope your predictions are wrong and it would be wrong to dismiss them, Europe has been thrown into turmoil before. I think, unless there is a change of direction in the EU, there will be civil unrest in various countries, and judging by the fiasco of the handling of the immigrant situation over the last couple of years the EU can’t react quick enough to deal with a situation rapidly spiraling out of control.
But this is just an opinion, I can’t see into the future I doubt you can either, If I’m wrong why on earth do you spend so long on this website instead of making a fortune on the stock market, so you can buy all the trucks you want and drive them wherever you want?
Your second paragraph contradicts the first one.So you’re saying that the risk of the first paragraph,that just being the inter ethnic dimension of the Yugoslav example not the sovereignty one,is worth taking.
No what I’m saying is you have an opinion, I have an opinion, but none of us can see into the future with total certainty, so until it happens it cannot be fact.
muckles:
No what I’m saying is you have an opinion, I have an opinion, but none of us can see into the future with total certainty, so until it happens it cannot be fact.
We’re supposedly discussing risk.So are you saying it’s ok for the in campaign to use unacceptable,but actually non existent bs economic ‘risk’,as a factor to make it’s case for in ?.But the out campaign can’t use the ‘fact’ of the ‘parallels’ and therefore resulting very real ‘risk’,of the example of the former Yugoslavia,to make the case for out ?.
Carryfast:
muckles:
No what I’m saying is you have an opinion, I have an opinion, but none of us can see into the future with total certainty, so until it happens it cannot be fact.We’re supposedly discussing risk.So you’re saying it’s ok for the in campaign can to use unacceptable,but actually non existent bs economic risk,as a factor to make it’s case for in.But the out campaign can’t use the ‘fact’ of the ‘parallels’ and therefore resulting very real ‘risk’ of the example of the former Yugoslavia to make the case for out.
I’m discussing opinion and fact, you’re the person who brought risk into this.
You are using history to try and predict the future, what happened in Yugoslavia is fact, but to say the same will happen in Europe is opinion as it hasn’t happened, even you use the term “real risk”, which is not a definite statement that something will happen only there is high likely hood of it, nothing wrong with looking at history to try and see the possible outcome of future events, but it will not be fact unless it actually happens.
Not sure how this means I support the In campaigns opinions, for they are just that opinions, they are also not fact unless it happens.
muckles:
it will not be fact unless it actually happens.
Great.The in campaign’s case is let’s repeat the mistakes that Tito made in the case of Yugoslavia,but this time on a much bigger scale, and hope for a different outcome. 
Don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
Carryfast:
muckles:
it will not be fact unless it actually happens.Great.The in campaign’s case is let’s repeat the mistakes that Tito made in the case of Yugoslavia,but this time on a much bigger scale, and hope for a different outcome.
Personally I am worried about the chances of civil unrest across Europe if things don’t change, but I can’t say it will happen. But I can also understand peoples fears of leaving the EU, whether real or imagined.
All you seem to be able to do is mock or insult anybody whose views differ from yours.
muckles:
Carryfast:
Great.The in campaign’s case is let’s repeat the mistakes that Tito made in the case of Yugoslavia,but this time on a much bigger scale, and hope for a different outcome.Personally I am worried about the chances of civil unrest across Europe if things don’t change, but I can’t say it will happen. But I can also understand peoples fears of leaving the EU, whether real or imagined.
All you seem to be able to do is mock or insult anybody whose views differ from yours.
To be fair the out campaign has been insulted enough times along the lines of Fruitcakes,Loonies and Racists.Tough deal with it.
Back to the topic.So are you saying the risks of creating another much bigger version of Yugoslavia are sufficient to smash the project now.Or let’s stay with it and hope ?.