matamoros:
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours,
the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a
break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
Grey areas are created by imprecise wording and contradictions. In English “A break” means one break, breaks of at least 15 mins totalling 30 mins means two breaks. Precise and not open to misinterpretation
Or grey areas are created by not reading all the relevant information. You’ve quoted Article 7, sections 2 and 3 but not bothered with section 4 which is linked to 2 and 4 and needs to be read with it.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each.
There you go, that tells that a break as referred to in sections 2 and 3 may be made up of periods of at least 15 minutes. No more grey area simply by reading all the information applicable to the situation.
In my world A break is one break and two breaks is two breaks not A break.I am well aware of what section 4 says and what it implies, if the correct English had been used in sections 2 & 3 there would have been no need for section 4 and no grey area. Sloppy drafting of legislation.
Nothing sloppy about it. In section 2 and 3 it is saying one break but all EU legislation is hierarchical in nature so section 4 then gives an option to replace the need for a, or one, break with two or three shorter breaks. If it said breaks or two breaks in section 2 and 3 then people would insist it had to be taken in two or more parts, and if it was written like that they would be right. To avoid that you would still need a section 4 to say that the breaks can be taken as one continuous break instead.
Section 2 says you need a 30 minute break, but section 4 allows that single break to be substituted with two shorter breaks.
Section 3 says you need a 45 minute break, but section 4 allows that single break to be substituted with two or three shorter breaks.
Makes perfect sense, section 2 and 3 are short and to the point in detailing the break requirements while section 4 gives an alternative to those requirements for flexibility and there is no grey area. The grey area only occurs if you don’t read ALL of the Article.
Still maintain that it is a sloppy use of English grammar and could quite easily have been drafted in a way to avoid any misunderstanding. Don’t please try and tell me there has been no misunderstanding on this issue or this thread would not be here. Still what else would you expect from the Eurocrats in Brussels ( and occasionally Strasbourg ).
kr79:
If you read the second paragraph of my post I say the your tacho break will have in all likleyhood covers you for the wtd.
Not at all. Have you never done shunting work? With the speed the lines run at the places I do shunting it’s physically impossible to do more than a couple of hours total driving in a shift.
No I know what your saying Rob in one job I had I was lucky to do 4 hours driving over a 10 or do hour day but I was just generalising there and at that firm the TM kept drilling in to everyone to use the poa function on the tacho as everyone kept leaving it on break so from a tacho regs point of veiw everything was ok but it was messing with the WTD regs.
But what I am trying to say is what chance does a mere driver have when the person training you doesn’t know.
kr79:
…and at that firm the TM kept drilling in to everyone to use the poa function on the tacho as everyone kept leaving it on break so from a tacho regs point of veiw everything was ok but it was messing with the WTD regs.
Break and POA are treated exactly the same way by for the WTD regs. Neither of them count as other work so leaving it on one or the other makes no difference to the WTD and it wouldn’t mess up the WTD, that was just a TM who was confused.
merc0447:
What actual qualifications do you need to be a dcpc trainer just a certificate knocked up on your computer?
I’ve looked into this and you need to “prove” that you are competent at training and competent in the subject matter you will be training. The problem is this “proof” can be in the form of a letter from an employer that says you have previous experience without any need to actually prove that you have.
Here is the exact wording from the JAUPT course approval form:
Trainer’s qualifications and/or experience — the directive requires that each trainer
is suitably qualified in the subject area(s) they are proposing to deliver.
Trainers will be expected to present evidence of knowledge in the relevant subject
area and also evidence of expertise in training/training techniques.
Evidence will take the form of:
Training
an appropriate training qualification OR
a certificate of experience from an employer or customer that can evidence
expertise in delivering training (see Annex 8 )
AND
Knowledge
an appropriate qualification in the relevant subject OR
a certificate of knowledge from an employer or customer that can evidence
expertise in the subject being delivered (see Annex 9).
NOTE: In some instances the same qualification/certificate may provide evidence
of both subject knowledge and training experience, eg the DSA Registered LGV
Instructor Certificate or the Driving Instructor NVQ.
Please note: Those trainers delivering practical driver training must have held
the appropriate driving licence for at least three years to comply with the
accompanying driver rules, and meet one of the above criteria.
So if you have a numpty training drivers the wrong information how is that making the industry more professional. Seems a very mickey mouse setup, the blind leading the blind.
I’ll be honest ive probably learned more from coffeholic and tachgraph on here about the rules and regs than i could in the whole 35 hours from some snotty nosed idiot in a classroom!
Not everyone gets to 4.5 hours driving in six hours work but if they do then yes the tacho break will cover the WTD for the next 6 hours of work. If you get to 6 hours first then the 15 minute WTD break will also cover the first part of a split break for the tacho regs. That’s one of the reasons why it is 15 minutes and not 30.
^^^^^ this
I use the 15 regular , and never get infringements ( why would I ? ) , but there are " lead drivers " at our place who flat refuse to believe me . These are blokes that train the rest of us
dieseldave:
A bone of contention I have with JAUPT is that their inspectors don’t seem to have any subject knowledge of the stuff they’re supposed to be inspecting. They seem to be very good at auditing ‘systems’ and paperwork though. Oh, and they’re excellent at clockwatching too.
I was audited not long ago. Nice guy turns up 08:00 makes him self known and has a few minutes with me in the office before I see to the lads that were arriving.
He gave me a full potted history of his working life. Ex driver turned trainer at a very large company then moved onto being an auditor for many organisations including JAUPT. Managers CPC holder, current HGV licence and DQC. years of experience as a driver, then traffic office manager then a trainer.
He then told me he had travelled over 100 miles to audit this course specifically because within JAUPT he had been employed for his subject knowledge so that he could audit certain courses. JAUPT had been waiting for an opportunity to audit this particular module when I was running it and he was available. I would - he assured me - get a different auditor turn up for different subjects.
He then proceeded to quiz me on the topic of the mornings training - Drivers Hours and Working TIme Directive. Just a few questions but he obviously knew a bit.
He then sat with us for the whole morning. At coffee time he again took me to one side and questioned me on this exact subject of WTD breaks. I had only just covered the WTD and been involved in an in depth discussion with one driver in particular who assured me I was wrong. “30 - 15 - 30 - 15 - your wrong - no I’m not etc etc”. Driver was adament that not only was it 30 minutes before 6 hours but this was AS WELL AS any breaks from driving because the two types of break are different. In the end he gave in and accepted I was right - but would continue to do it ‘his way’ because his boss didn’t mind (He might after I ring him and explain )
Mr Auditor told me he sees this very often and usually the trainer is correct - but if not he makes a point of marking them down and reporting them.
At the Lunch break he asked me to wait outside whilst he had a chat with the lads. Apparently he asked them to whistle blow on any trainers not fulfilling the full 7 hours etc
So after all that waffling - what I’m trying to say is that JAUPT appear to be moving the goal posts a little and are definitly checking subject knowledge and content as well as paperwork, policies and quality of coffee.
I can’t understand what’s so difficult about this 6hour thing, new firm I’m going on for on monday says you need to take 30mins before 6hours, its a pain in the ■■■■■■■ arse because it doesn’t line up with a split driving break and if nothing else its a sheer waste of time!
But it isn’t only trainers who occasionaly get it wrong … Diesel Dave helped me sort out a mate who had one of his vehicles stopped by VOSA and a prohibition put on it.
The vehicle sat from 10:00am until mid-day the next day with some VOSA lady insisting he had contravened ADR rules and quoting all sorts of regs. Diesel Dave spoke directly to her - she insisted she was VOSA and therefore right. She rang her boss - Mr DGSA of VOSA who insisted she was right. Mr DGSA of VOSA then rang his boss at WHitehall - Mr DGSA of GOVERNMENT who agreed that my mate and Diesel Dave were right and VOSA were wrong.
The vehicle was sat for over 24 hours. My mate lost the job and around £600+ VOSA rang to apologise - but forgot to actually apologise and basically said it was a grey area and they were right and would do the same again.
An awful lot of rules and regs can easily be missunderstood even by VOSA
Back on the subject of DCPC Trainers. I am quite confident JAUPT and DSA are working towards weeding out those that shouldn’t be delivering training.
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