kr79:
This is where having two sets of hours regulations opens up so many grey areas. In all likely hood you will have had a break due to the tacho but I know what your saying.
In principle I see some form of training good good for drivers to keep us updated on tachos and new legislation but we have typical half cocked schemes made up to make money for the government and keep paper shufflers in a job.
The term grey area is only used by someone who doesn’t understand the law or cannot read what is written in front of them.
“Grey areas” may not be the best term to use but it’s obvious that the way the regulations are worded need simplifying, if even the trainers can’t get it right why should anyone expect drivers to understand the regulations
How can this,
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each.
be made any simpler?
By replacing this:
No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
With this:
No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break of at-least 15 minutes
Which is what it already says. You have to draw the line somewhere, everything shouldn’t have to be brought down to the level of the terminally bewildered or at would all read like a Janet and John book.
If you read the second paragraph of my post I say the your tacho break will have in all likleyhood covers you for the wtd.
What I’m trying to say is this is where the cpc can work to benefit drivers to keep everyone up to date with the rules and regulations but what chance does anyone stand when you have people who are qualified to teach these spouting misinformation.
I do realise a law is there and you either break it or you don’t but how you interpret something can make something sound different.
kr79:
If you read the second paragraph of my post I say the your tacho break will have in all likleyhood covers you for the wtd.
Not everyone gets to 4.5 hours driving in six hours work but if they do then yes the tacho break will cover the WTD for the next 6 hours of work. If you get to 6 hours first then the 15 minute WTD break will also cover the first part of a split break for the tacho regs. That’s one of the reasons why it is 15 minutes and not 30.
kr79:
If you read the second paragraph of my post I say the your tacho break will have in all likleyhood covers you for the wtd.
Not everyone gets to 4.5 hours driving in six hours work but if they do then yes the tacho break will cover the WTD for the next 6 hours of work. If you get to 6 hours first then the 15 minute WTD break will also cover the first part of a split break for the tacho regs. That’s one of the reasons why it is 15 minutes and not 30.
Absolutely correct coffee,i work for a convenience stores and thats exactly what happens most days.
Mind you there are still drivers at our place that think they have to have 30 minutes but they just wont listen ,so i leave them to get on with it.
Also ive been doing it this way for 3 and a half years on a digi and havent had a single infringement in all that time,of 20 drivers there are only 2 of us that havent had infringements in that time.
Coffeeholic:
Which is what it already says. You have to draw the line somewhere, everything shouldn’t have to be brought down to the level of the terminally bewildered or at would all read like a Janet and John book.
I agree, but there must be something wrong if neither the drivers or the trainers can get it right.
Coffeeholic:
Which is what it already says. You have to draw the line somewhere, everything shouldn’t have to be brought down to the level of the terminally bewildered or at would all read like a Janet and John book.
I agree, but there must be something wrong if neither the drivers or the trainers can get it right.
One thing i hate having is arguments or debates with the trainer when doing these daft courses. Keep quite, head down, dispute nothing and ask no questions, gets the pointless course over and done with soon as possible. I try and agree this plan of action with classmates before the start if i can.
But theres always some smart alec whose gotta string out the course with stupid questions and disputes.
pavaroti:
One thing i hate having is arguments or debates with the trainer when doing these daft courses. Keep quite, head down, dispute nothing and ask no questions, gets the pointless course over and done with soon as possible. I try and agree this plan of action with classmates before the start if i can.
But theres always some smart alec whose gotta string out the course with stupid questions and disputes.
i agree with this 100%.there`s allways some ■■■■ butting in all the time…acting the clown,and coming out with wise ■■■ coments.
if you are reading this…mr funny man…do everybody a favour and shut the ■■■■ up so we can be in and out asap
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours,
the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a
break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
Grey areas are created by imprecise wording and contradictions. In English “A break” means one break, breaks of at least 15 mins totalling 30 mins means two breaks. Precise and not open to misinterpretation
Hiya … if we could fit two digis in a truck it would make things much easier like when we had two (or more)log books…
been a little less silly… the law used to be that you had a half hour break after 6 hours work… then it was changed
to the after 4 1/2 hours driving… i think that years ago when everything was handball you would spend 3 hours
loading so you had a break after 3 hours driving…start at 6am ish (usual start time)and dinner at 12 ish.
When more pallet loading came about it was decided you could drive for 6 hours and that was to much so
the 4 1/2 hours came about. now things are up in the air again…thank god i’am out of it now…
up untill the 70’s your day was 12 1/2 hours duty with 9 hours driving and a half hour dinner, it was’nt untill
maybe 1980 the hours was moved up to 15 hour duty with the 2 x 10 hour driving come about.
I think i’am correct with that advice apart from the year…someone will help out…
John
matamoros:
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours,
the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a
break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
Grey areas are created by imprecise wording and contradictions. In English “A break” means one break, breaks of at least 15 mins totalling 30 mins means two breaks. Precise and not open to misinterpretation
Or grey areas are created by not reading all the relevant information. You’ve quoted Article 7, sections 2 and 3 but not bothered with section 4 which is linked to 2 and 3 and needs to be read with it.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each.
There you go, that tells that a break as referred to in sections 2 and 3 may be made up of periods of at least 15 minutes. No more grey area simply by reading all the information applicable to the situation.
tiger65:
Not saying who is right or who is wrong, but:
These are the rules according to -
[DfT 13495] S T A T U T O R Y I N S T R U M E N T S 2005 No. 639 TRANSPORT The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 Breaks
7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each…
(5) An employer shall take all reasonable steps, in keeping with the need to protect the health
and safety of the mobile worker, to ensure that the limits specified above are complied with in the
case of each mobile worker employed by him.
Hope this helps
You see they can’t even agree on the wording themselves. GV262 says breaks totalling 30 mins are needed between 6 and 9 hours, yet in this official blurb above it says that one is entitled to a break blah-de-blah. Again, ambiguous imho. “Entitled” doesn’t mean that you legally have to; “entitled” just means that you can if you want to, and if you decide that you want to have a break then it must be a min of 30 mins. Other than the legal requirement to have a 15 min break at or before 6 hours work as per (1), there is nothing legally binding in (2) and (3)s statements - the wording they have used makes it entirely optional whether you have a further 15 or 30 min break at or before your 9th work of work; you could simply carrying on working and not have another 15 min break until your 12th hour of work to satisfy (1).
kr79:
If you read the second paragraph of my post I say the your tacho break will have in all likleyhood covers you for the wtd.
Not at all. Have you never done shunting work? With the speed the lines run at the places I do shunting it’s physically impossible to do more than a couple of hours total driving in a shift.
Myself and Trucker Jon are having a “discussion” at the moment with a trainer who thinks that drivers should have to update their knowledge on their own and not expect managers & employers to supply information, advice and training.
matamoros:
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours,
the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a
break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
Grey areas are created by imprecise wording and contradictions. In English “A break” means one break, breaks of at least 15 mins totalling 30 mins means two breaks. Precise and not open to misinterpretation
Or grey areas are created by not reading all the relevant information. You’ve quoted Article 7, sections 2 and 3 but not bothered with section 4 which is linked to 2 and 4 and needs to be read with it.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each.
There you go, that tells that a break as referred to in sections 2 and 3 may be made up of periods of at least 15 minutes. No more grey area simply by reading all the information applicable to the situation.
In my world A break is one break and two breaks is two breaks not A break.I am well aware of what section 4 says and what it implies, if the correct English had been used in sections 2 & 3 there would have been no need for section 4 and no grey area. Sloppy drafting of legislation.
skoowif:
Not saying who’s right or wrong, but have you had this argument with your digi?
My £100 goes on you getting an infringment IMO.
Gladly take that bet and your money.Been working the 15mins upto and at 6 hours for a couple of years now.
I don’t even bother argueing with people who say its 30 mins anymore.I let them get on with it,trainers and drivers.
Wheel Nut:
Myself and Trucker Jon are having a “discussion” at the moment with a trainer who thinks that drivers should have to update their knowledge on their own and not expect managers & employers to supply information, advice and training.
matamoros:
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours,
the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a
break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
Grey areas are created by imprecise wording and contradictions. In English “A break” means one break, breaks of at least 15 mins totalling 30 mins means two breaks. Precise and not open to misinterpretation
Or grey areas are created by not reading all the relevant information. You’ve quoted Article 7, sections 2 and 3 but not bothered with section 4 which is linked to 2 and 4 and needs to be read with it.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each.
There you go, that tells that a break as referred to in sections 2 and 3 may be made up of periods of at least 15 minutes. No more grey area simply by reading all the information applicable to the situation.
In my world A break is one break and two breaks is two breaks not A break.I am well aware of what section 4 says and what it implies, if the correct English had been used in sections 2 & 3 there would have been no need for section 4 and no grey area. Sloppy drafting of legislation.
Nothing sloppy about it. In section 2 and 3 it is saying one break but all EU legislation is hierarchical in nature so section 4 then gives an option to replace the need for a, or one, break with two or three shorter breaks. If it said breaks or two breaks in section 2 and 3 then people would insist it had to be taken in two or more parts, and if it was written like that they would be right. To avoid that you would still need a section 4 to say that the breaks can be taken as one continuous break instead.
Section 2 says you need a 30 minute break, but section 4 allows that single break to be substituted with two shorter breaks.
Section 3 says you need a 45 minute break, but section 4 allows that single break to be substituted with two or three shorter breaks.
Makes perfect sense, section 2 and 3 are short and to the point in detailing the break requirements while section 4 gives an alternative to those requirements for flexibility and there is no grey area. The grey area only occurs if you don’t read ALL of the Article.
