Extract of a conversation with a DCPC trainer yesterday :
Trainer : blah blah, 30 minute break when you’ve done 6 hours work
Me : 15 min break you mean?
T : No, 30. You must take a 30 min break when you’ve done 6 hours work
Me : Says who?
T : The Road Transport Directive
Me : No, it doesn’t say that at all
T : It does mate
Me : No it doesn’t!
T : It does!
Me : Right, so at or before 6 hours work you’re saying I legally have to take a 30 min break?
T : Yes mate, them’s the rules
Me : A 30 min break, yes?
T : Yep.
Me : I’ll bet you any money you like that you’re wrong
T : Name your price
Me : £100?
T : Fine by me if you want to lose your money
Me : OK pull the DFT site up on the screen
T : Don’t need to mate, already got it here in writing.
[quotes from GV262]
“working between 6 and 9 hours per day requires breaks totalling 30 minutes”
Me : Yes, and?
T : That’s it, proof
Me : Er no. Where does is state that breaks totalling 30 min need to be taken at or before 6 hours?
T : It doesn’t need to. That’s what it means
Me : No, not at all. It says if you are working BETWEEN 6 and 9 hours per day that 30 mins of breaks are needed, that’s not the same as at or before, is it?
T : It means the same thing
Me : No! It doesn’t! Look at the wording. I can work 8hrs and 59 mins with only a 15 minute break because it clearly says that I have UP TO 9 hours to have breaks totalling 30 mins, so I can quite legally take 15 mins at 6 hours and the other 15 mins just before 9 hours
T : [goes quiet and looks on thoughtfully] I see what you’re saying…
Some time later after more “discussion”
T : Yep you’re right, that is what it says in the legislation, I can’t argue with that so I’ll hold me hands up and admit I’m wrong on that, but I’ll be taking it up with my mate who teaches all the trainers this stuff as it was him that told me about the 6hr rule.
Me :
I didn’t get my £100 as he wouldn’t shake on it, sadly, but I wonder how many other trainees are being fed this BS by so-called proffesional trainers?
The trainer of the trainer will probably adopt one of two stances when confronted.
“It’s a grey area.”
“It’s company policy.”
When really he should be saying, “I’m an idiot who clearly can’t read. I wonder if I have some previously undiagnosed learning difficulties?”
He’s definitely no idiot, in fact he’s a really sound bloke who has helped me out considerably just recently. Just happened to be mis-informed like a lot of drivers and ex-drivers (myself included at one point too).
This 6 hour 30 min “rule” has got to be the biggest urban myth of this decade so far. In fairness I do think think that wording is quite ambiguous and could have been laid out in a much clearer fashion.
The trainer of the trainer will probably adopt one of two stances when confronted.
“It’s a grey area.”
“It’s company policy.”
When really he should be saying, “I’m an idiot who clearly can’t read. I wonder if I have some previously undiagnosed learning difficulties?”
He’s definitely no idiot, in fact he’s a really sound bloke who has helped me out considerably just recently. Just happened to be mis-informed like a lot of drivers and ex-drivers (myself included at one point too)
I didn’t mean your trainer. I meant the trainer of the trainers, the guy your bloke is going to be having words with.
I am one of a dying breed. I got my HGV licence in 1969 on grandfather rights, and I remember an argument at the time as to who was qualified to test new HGV drivers. the same question now is:-- who qualifies the qualified people who teach the DCPC rules■■?, and if they teach you wrong and you are pulled, who is at fault?? From what I have heard from various drivers different rules are being applied in different parts of the country, so if that is the case, something taught in Manchester for example may be against the law in London. I am glad that I am at the end of my driving career, its far to complicated for an old man.
This is where having two sets of hours regulations opens up so many grey areas. In all likely hood you will have had a break due to the tacho but I know what your saying.
In principle I see some form of training good good for drivers to keep us updated on tachos and new legislation but we have typical half cocked schemes made up to make money for the government and keep paper shufflers in a job.
Rob K:
This 6 hour 30 min “rule” has got to be the biggest urban myth of this decade so far. In fairness I do think think that wording is quite ambiguous and could have been laid out in a much clearer fashion.
I think a large part of the problem is that the first version of the guidance notes that VOSA published about the working time nonsense got it wrong too which is probably why so many people still think you need 30min at 6h.
skoowif:
Not saying who’s right or wrong, but have you had this argument with your digi?
My £100 goes on you getting an infringment IMO.
What’s the digi tacho got to do with it?
If your company give you an infringement for taking a 15 minute break before exceeding 6 hours work the answer is simple. They don’t know the regulations.
Rob K:
This 6 hour 30 min “rule” has got to be the biggest urban myth of this decade so far. In fairness I do think think that wording is quite ambiguous and could have been laid out in a much clearer fashion.
I think a large part of the problem is that the first version of the guidance notes that VOSA published about the working time nonsense got it wrong too which is probably why so many people still think you need 30min at 6h.
kr79:
This is where having two sets of hours regulations opens up so many grey areas.
It really doesn’t. There are no grey areas regarding the break requirements for either set of regulations. Especially since the change to the taho regs split break option to at least 15 minutes followed by at least 30 minutes, done partly so it aligned with the WTD requirement of a minimum 15 minutes.
kr79:
This is where having two sets of hours regulations opens up so many grey areas. In all likely hood you will have had a break due to the tacho but I know what your saying.
In principle I see some form of training good good for drivers to keep us updated on tachos and new legislation but we have typical half cocked schemes made up to make money for the government and keep paper shufflers in a job.
The term grey area is only used by someone who doesn’t understand the law or cannot read what is written in front of them.
[DfT 13495] S T A T U T O R Y I N S T R U M E N T S 2005 No. 639 TRANSPORT The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 Breaks
7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours,
the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a
break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each…
(5) An employer shall take all reasonable steps, in keeping with the need to protect the health
and safety of the mobile worker, to ensure that the limits specified above are complied with in the
case of each mobile worker employed by him.
Rob K:
Extract of a conversation with a DCPC trainer yesterday :
~snip~
T : Yep you’re right, that is what it says in the legislation, I can’t argue with that so I’ll hold me hands up and admit I’m wrong on that, but I’ll be taking it up with my mate who teaches all the trainers this stuff as it was him that told me about the 6hr rule.
He may be a top bloke at many things but Driver CPC training obviously isn’t one of them.
Isn’t this exactly where the whole DCPC is failing, trainers not bothering to check on the information they’re teaching.
tiger65:
Not saying who is right or who is wrong, but:
These are the rules according to -
[DfT 13495] S T A T U T O R Y I N S T R U M E N T S 2005 No. 639 TRANSPORT The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 Breaks
7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours,
the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a
break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each…
(5) An employer shall take all reasonable steps, in keeping with the need to protect the health
and safety of the mobile worker, to ensure that the limits specified above are complied with in the
case of each mobile worker employed by him.
kr79:
This is where having two sets of hours regulations opens up so many grey areas. In all likely hood you will have had a break due to the tacho but I know what your saying.
In principle I see some form of training good good for drivers to keep us updated on tachos and new legislation but we have typical half cocked schemes made up to make money for the government and keep paper shufflers in a job.
The term grey area is only used by someone who doesn’t understand the law or cannot read what is written in front of them.
“Grey areas” may not be the best term to use but it’s obvious that the way the regulations are worded need simplifying, if even the trainers can’t get it right why should anyone expect drivers to understand the regulations
The trainer of the trainer will probably adopt one of two stances when confronted.
“It’s a grey area.”
“It’s company policy.”
When really he should be saying, “I’m an idiot who clearly can’t read. I wonder if I have some previously undiagnosed learning difficulties?”
I’ve heard of a third stance adopted by some trainers…
“It’s a different interpretation,” but when I’ve asked them what this is supposed to mean, it then goes quiet.
IMHO, if somebody is going to call themselves a trainer, they should be able to read and truly understand the actual Regs including all relevant definitions, coupled with an ability with English that allows them to explain things plainly.
Unfortunately, and until there’s a pretty stringent English language entry requirement for would-be trainers, the door will remain open for the wafflers and BS merchants.
A bone of contention I have with JAUPT is that their inspectors don’t seem to have any subject knowledge of the stuff they’re supposed to be inspecting. They seem to be very good at auditing ‘systems’ and paperwork though. Oh, and they’re excellent at clockwatching too.
kr79:
This is where having two sets of hours regulations opens up so many grey areas. In all likely hood you will have had a break due to the tacho but I know what your saying.
In principle I see some form of training good good for drivers to keep us updated on tachos and new legislation but we have typical half cocked schemes made up to make money for the government and keep paper shufflers in a job.
The term grey area is only used by someone who doesn’t understand the law or cannot read what is written in front of them.
“Grey areas” may not be the best term to use but it’s obvious that the way the regulations are worded need simplifying, if even the trainers can’t get it right why should anyone expect drivers to understand the regulations
How can this,
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each.
kr79:
This is where having two sets of hours regulations opens up so many grey areas. In all likely hood you will have had a break due to the tacho but I know what your saying.
In principle I see some form of training good good for drivers to keep us updated on tachos and new legislation but we have typical half cocked schemes made up to make money for the government and keep paper shufflers in a job.
The term grey area is only used by someone who doesn’t understand the law or cannot read what is written in front of them.
“Grey areas” may not be the best term to use but it’s obvious that the way the regulations are worded need simplifying, if even the trainers can’t get it right why should anyone expect drivers to understand the regulations
How can this,
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each.
be made any simpler?
By replacing this:
No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
With this:
No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break of at-least 15 minutes
