Be kind of ironic now if the UK votes to leave the EU and the Scots, who, I am told, are broadly in favour of it, are dragged along with the isolationists against their collectively will.
If they had voted for secession they may have been the only ones in those islands, along with the Irish, still on board.
It may not seem the best thing at the moment but I believe that the way to go for Europe is a federation/confederation of independent nation states.
Not a popular view, I am well aware, but that’s never stopped me before.
Edit in view of Bewick’s remarks while I was writing. I think you’ve got something there, it is just possible that Salmond had inner doubts about the long term viability of an independent Scotland and indeed wanted devomax on the ballot in the first place. They refused, now he’s got it.
Bewick:
Now that the dust is settling IMHO wily old 'ECK isn’t as daft as you think,yes he would have taken a YES vote but that was the cherry on the cake which deep down he must have known he was going to lose,however,he has got what he wanted more-or-less which is independence in all but name,well Cameron and Brown have promised the earth(and they have to deliver)But what 'Eck has also done is throw a [zb] great grenade into the UK political elite as the aggro is going to start big time from here on in and through the next general election.'Eck might have looked suitably ■■■■■■ off on the TV this morning but that was just for the cameras and his crest fallen supporters,but behind closed doors he’ll be laughing his ■■■■ off having “stuck it right up” the Westminster elite,boy has he given those [zb] a basinful of trouble for the coming year or two!!He’s absolutely run rings around them and is coming up smelling of roses out the midden! I don’t particular like the geezer but you’ve just got to admire him fair and square like.Cheers Bewick.
Blimey Bewick you’re talking bollox and believe it all yourself.All that the referendum has done is to make Cameron’s let alone Miliband and Clegg’s position much stronger v that of Farage’s which wouldn’t be difficult considereing that Farage himself obviously doesn’t agree with us being in the EU but he obviously doesn’t understand why.While we’re all going to be paying for the privilege when Brown’s cronies start asking us to pay up to keep the Scottish voters happy.
Now come on “CF” me old mucker there’s only on member on TNUK that has the monopoly on talking Bollox,I couldn’t hold a candle to your masterful grasp of the art of talking bollox you win hands down as you’ve well and truly proved over the past couple of weeks.Is it something in the water around Leatherhead? Which former sand and ballast pit does your water come from by the way ? Bewick.
Spardo:
Be kind of ironic now if the UK votes to leave the EU and the Scots, who, I am told, are broadly in favour of it, are dragged along with the isolationists against their collectively will.
If they had voted for secession they may have been the only ones in those islands, along with the Irish, still on board.
It may not seem the best thing at the moment but I believe that the way to go for Europe is a federation/confederation of independent nation states.
Not a popular view, I am well aware, but that’s never stopped me before.
Edit in view of Bewick’s remarks while I was writing. I think you’ve got something there, it is just possible that Salmond had inner doubts about the long term viability of an independent Scotland and indeed wanted devomax on the ballot in the first place. They refused, now he’s got it.
The ‘UK’ won’t vote to leave the EU because firstly there probably won’t even be a referendum in an environment where UKIP is wiped out by a LabLibdem coalition which is the most likely result of this Scottish fiasco.While even if there was it’s obvious that the barrage of pro federalist propaganda and scare tactics used by the pro EU big business interests in the media will make sure that the vote will be to stay in.
As for a Federal Confederation that sounds as mad as a Unionist/anti federalist UKIP.Here’s a clue there has been at least one major civil war fought over the difference between Federation and Confederacy and contrary to all the bs propaganda it had nothing whatsoever to do with slavery.
Answer me this “CF”,you seem to have a “downer” on UKIP,why? You aren’t a de-selected UKIP candidate by any chance,are you ? now come on 'fess up you are among your friends and it won’t go any further than us Bewick.
Bewick:
Answer me this “CF”,you seem to have a “downer” on UKIP,why? You aren’t a de-selected UKIP candidate by any chance,are you ? now come on 'fess up you are among your friends and it won’t go any further than us Bewick.
No I’m just a tactical voter who doesn’t agree with Thatcherism,Federalism or Socialism and I’ve had my doubts about UKIP from day 1 and this has just confirmed them.So tell us Bewick how do you explain your reasoning as to why being in the European Union is a bad thing while being part of the UK union is supposedly a good thing.
Bewick:
Answer me this “CF”,you seem to have a “downer” on UKIP,why? You aren’t a de-selected UKIP candidate by any chance,are you ? now come on 'fess up you are among your friends and it won’t go any further than us Bewick.
No I’m just a tactical voter who doesn’t agree with Thatcherism,Federalism or Socialism and I’ve had my doubts about UKIP from day 1 and this has just confirmed them.So tell us Bewick how do you explain your reasoning as to why being in the European Union is a bad thing while being part of the UK union is supposedly a good thing.
You’ve got me wrong “CF”,I’d vote to leave both the EU and the UK if we were given the choice but we’ll only get that choice if we vote for for Nigel,I know I know you really wouldn’t want to buy a secondhand car off him but you’ll have to admit he is really putting the ■■■■■ up the ruling elite isn’t he ?Well it is a means to an end,someone has to try !! Cheers Bewick.
Bewick:
Answer me this “CF”,you seem to have a “downer” on UKIP,why? You aren’t a de-selected UKIP candidate by any chance,are you ? now come on 'fess up you are among your friends and it won’t go any further than us Bewick.
No I’m just a tactical voter who doesn’t agree with Thatcherism,Federalism or Socialism and I’ve had my doubts about UKIP from day 1 and this has just confirmed them.So tell us Bewick how do you explain your reasoning as to why being in the European Union is a bad thing while being part of the UK union is supposedly a good thing.
If I may answer for myself. I believe that independent nations in the EU are a good thing. I believe that subservient nations in anything are a bad thing. Scotland would have had the best of both worlds if they’d voted yes. As it is they have the worst of both, less than full independence (like England, Wales and NI) and the strong possibility of not being in the EU.
Bewick:
Answer me this “CF”,you seem to have a “downer” on UKIP,why? You aren’t a de-selected UKIP candidate by any chance,are you ? now come on 'fess up you are among your friends and it won’t go any further than us Bewick.
No I’m just a tactical voter who doesn’t agree with Thatcherism,Federalism or Socialism and I’ve had my doubts about UKIP from day 1 and this has just confirmed them.So tell us Bewick how do you explain your reasoning as to why being in the European Union is a bad thing while being part of the UK union is supposedly a good thing.
You’ve got me wrong “CF”,I’d vote to leave both the EU and the UK if we were given the choice but we’ll only get that choice if we vote for for Nigel,I know I know you really wouldn’t want to buy a secondhand car off him but you’ll have to admit he is really putting the [zb] up the ruling elite isn’t he ?Well it is a means to an end,someone has to try !! Cheers Bewick.
How the zb have I possibly got you ( and Farage ) ‘wrong’ when I’ve been wasting my time trying to make the case for the return of the nation state of England and the breakup of the UK union when you’ve made countless posts on here in support of the UK Unionist cause just like that zb Farage.It’s too late to change your mind now…Or is it.On second thoughts what a brilliant tactic that would be to throw a spanner in Cameron’s and Gordon Brown’s plans.Im in.
Bewick:
Answer me this “CF”,you seem to have a “downer” on UKIP,why? You aren’t a de-selected UKIP candidate by any chance,are you ? now come on 'fess up you are among your friends and it won’t go any further than us Bewick.
No I’m just a tactical voter who doesn’t agree with Thatcherism,Federalism or Socialism and I’ve had my doubts about UKIP from day 1 and this has just confirmed them.So tell us Bewick how do you explain your reasoning as to why being in the European Union is a bad thing while being part of the UK union is supposedly a good thing.
If I may answer for myself. I believe that independent nations in the EU are a good thing. I believe that subservient nations in anything are a bad thing. Scotland would have had the best of both worlds if they’d voted yes. As it is they have the worst of both, less than full independence (like England, Wales and NI) and the strong possibility of not being in the EU.
We’ve already got the issues of subservient nations in the EU now with EU laws overruling national laws and no right of unilateral national opt out regarding majority decisions made in the EU parliament,including the issue of ‘contribution’ levels to the EU budget,by unelected ( by us ) foreign MEP’s.In addition to the issues of calls for even greater levels of centralisation in the form of EU federal government.As for the UK that has already taken the federal government to the inevitable point where the seperate sovereign nations that make up the UK federation are no longer recognised as such with the designation of the UK having taken over that national definition just as in the case of the USA and obviously inevitably the future USE.
As for the contradictions contained in the Scottish nationalist idea of independence from the UK but remaining within the EU that makes no more sense than the UKIP idea of seceding from the EU federation while supporting the UK federation.However assuming that Scotland had succeeded in leaving the UK it wouldn’t have mattered to us because at that point the breakup of the UK would have been guaranteed with Cameron gone from the scene leaving an independent England hopefully also then free of the EU.Any other choice than that,involving staying in the UK and/or the EU,was/is a case of supporting federalism.Which of course is a trap that Farage and UKIP have chosen to walk into.Bearing in mind that I’m probably not the only potential UKIP voter who ‘was’ hoping that the UK in UKIP was just a geographic identifier not an ideological one in the form of the impossible and insane contradiction of it being a Unionist ‘and’ an anti Federalist Party.Farage having answered that question beyond doubt.
irish lorries:
Not one’s asked the obvious question does Wales and northern ireland get a vote
The realisation is suddenly dawning amongst the English what they’ve done by supporting the continuation of the Union.IE it’s going to cost us more money to pay off the Scottish unionists and the continuation of the situation in which Scottish Labour MP’s rule England and the English.With the recriminations in that regard already starting now less than 24 hours later.While even Bewick seems to have now suddenly realised his mistake in following the unionist cause.
As I said if/when the union breaks up it will probably break up by the English calling for independence where it started here in England not Wales or Northern Ireland.But it’s going to take time.
irish lorries:
Not one’s asked the obvious question does Wales and northern ireland get a vote
The realisation is suddenly dawning amongst the English what they’ve done by supporting the continuation of the Union.IE it’s going to cost us more money to pay off the Scottish unionists and the continuation of the situation in which Scottish Labour MP’s rule England and the English.With the recriminations in that regard already starting now less than 24 hours later.While even Bewick seems to have now suddenly realised his mistake in following the unionist cause.
As I said if/when the union breaks up it will probably break up by the English calling for independence where it started here in England not Wales or Northern Ireland.But it’s going to take time.
How do you know all the union will break up I just hope Wales and northern ireland and England get a choice or we could just have a vote for everyone in the UK to vote for the future of the union
irish lorries:
Not one’s asked the obvious question does Wales and northern ireland get a vote
The realisation is suddenly dawning amongst the English what they’ve done by supporting the continuation of the Union.IE it’s going to cost us more money to pay off the Scottish unionists and the continuation of the situation in which Scottish Labour MP’s rule England and the English.With the recriminations in that regard already starting now less than 24 hours later.While even Bewick seems to have now suddenly realised his mistake in following the unionist cause.
As I said if/when the union breaks up it will probably break up by the English calling for independence where it started here in England not Wales or Northern Ireland.But it’s going to take time.
How do you know all the union will break up I just hope Wales and northern ireland and England get a choice or we could just have a vote for everyone in the UK to vote for the future of the union
As I’ve said it’s probably going to take the actual breakup of the union itself to finally remove the issues of unionism in Northern Ireland.By that logic realistically it would take either or both of the two main parts of it in the form of Scotland and/or England to secede from it to do that.Assuming either or both did that the breakup would be inevitable.Which is why the unionist machine went into over drive to create the Scottish no vote.
However the English situation would be far less easy for that agenda to manage with a far less predictable result especially now the implications of the Scottish vote,in regards to the ongoing economic and democratic effects of the union,on the English economy and English system of government are becoming clear to the population.In terms of us effectively being ripped off and conned by that system both economically and democratically.IE increasing pressure on English MP’s for English independence will be a game changer in terms of the unionist agenda as it increasingly loses its English base and backing.It’s at that point when the Nationalist cause in Ireland would stand the best chance of defeating the Unionist cause if it ‘then’ joins in with that English pressure on the Union and calling for a Northern Irish referendum.In which case using a bit of patience and restraint in that regard could pay dividends.As opposed to the probably counterproductive and possibly dangerous idea of trying to push the nationalist agenda there to far and too fast.
Salmond resigns, bad loser cant face the music, shame he did not have one of them little pills like they had in the war which they took in event of capture never to speak or be seen again, should have given him one to take and while at it one for CF an all, Buzzer.
Jazzandy:
The union is not going to break up. Wales and Northern Ireland are unable to financially support themselves.
Scotland is but not on the basis of the rampant socialism which Salmond was preaching.
The fact is Gordon Brown and his Unionist Scottish followers are raving socialists to a higher degree than Salmond could have dreamed of.The difference being that Salmond didn’t want the English to pay for Scottish public services or to get involved in the English government and if the Scottish really wanted to support themselves,rather than sponge off us,they would have voted for independence and then thrown Salmond out…
As for others telling us in England wether or not the union should be broken up that’s now for ‘us’ to decide.Not those unionists in Wales or Northern Ireland or Scotland who want the English to pay their way and to force their way into our government to keep the UK federalist scam going.
Make no mistake this isn’t over and now you’re dealing with a much bigger,potentially anti federalist,voting base to decide wether we want to run our own country without Northern Irish,Welsh,or Scottish ( or EU ) interference and keep our own money to spend on our own people.
According to his recent posts the Unionist cause has already lost Bewick to the English nationalist cause and if he can be convinced then anyone can.
Just for the record, I’ll say this once more. I’m not an SNP voter.
Salmond is no bad loser! He’s an honourable man with integrity. He took a certain stance and it didn’t come off. Now he resigns with dignity.
Did Brown resign after leading Labour to defeat? Did Major? When Cameron loses his job to Boris will he resign? Will Clegg when he gets his marching orders?
Salmond is a Giant amongst politicians, unlike the pygmies in the Tory, Labour & Lib-Dem parties and their pal Brown.
He’s done more to improve the circumstances of his fellow countrymen and women than all who post on here, including me!
He led his party to a landslide victory in 2011 gaining them a second term in office.
Think they wont get a third?
Labour’s traditional heartland, Glasgow & Lanarkshire, overwhelmingly voted for Independnce. Where will that put Milliband & Labour in 2016 at the next Holyrood Elections?
Starting way back!
This referendum post had potential for a decent and sensible debate on a matter that affected the whole of the UK, and, as usual, descended into the usual slagging off and stupid comments.
Banter is one thing, abuse is another.
Terrible.
Alex
Gentleman,this page 20 ofthe scottish referenum is the very best of reading and banter i have come across the very etiquette, eulogise is stunning.
ME thinks that most of the contemplation does not argument from humble believe.
