Its ridiculous that we have come to this, since Blair & his government let the devolution genie out of the bottle the political scene in Scotland has got out of control, now we are reaping the rewards. I am however still a yes voter, it is the North of England I feel for stuck with the present status quo, places like Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle having their energy & confidence taken away so London can become even more richer & even more detached. It will be a sad day when Union breaks up but it has to happen. You can’t expect the English (or can you?) to underwrite devo max.
P.S. Northern Ireland more per head than any other country including Scotland.
It not just scots who are getting to choose the path scotland goes down, its english, polish, latvian, russian, romainian, irish, chinese, american, norwegian, dutch, german, belgie, french etc etc who reside in scotland
gingerfold:
Carryfast you have a fair point as regards the rest of the EU voting on Britain’s membership IF a referendum is ever held, but to take your reasoning against my suggestion then the remainder of the EU should vote on Scotland’s wish for independence or not. Obviously that is totally impractical and that is why we have democratically elected Governments to make decisions that should reflect the wishes of the population. My point is, and was, that our politicians have completely screwed up on this issue and they have completely mishandled it. Having said that they are sailing in uncharted waters constitutionally and I’m at a loss to think of how it could have been handled differently to satisfy the diverse opinions of everbody.
We are not sailing in uncharted waters at all.The idea of two of the main nations that made/make up the ‘union’ effectively breaking up that union would just put things back as they were when that union was first built mostly by force of the joint Anglo/French federal forces of post 1066 ‘England’.
Ireland having already decided to make a start on that process of breakup as of 1921.In that case,like Yugoslavia amongst other examples of the nationalist v federalist cause turning ugly,that secession having to be carried out by force of arms.Precisely because of that type of typical federalist logic,in which the federalist cause thought the matter was all about federalism having the right to overrule self determination.Which is exactly the same flawed logic which you’ve referred to in thinking that ‘the union/federation’ in this case has the right to decide wether any nation has the right to secede from it when that choice is only one for the nation in question to decide.
By that logic our politicians have acted in the correct way in seeing that there is a growing feeling amongst the Scottish that they might wish to secede from that union and giving them the vote to decide the issue for themselves.
The bit that isn’t correct is then following that up in the form of a biased propaganda campaign and massive pressure to create a vote in favour of them staying in that union for whatever reason.Let alone the federalist/unionist side then also trying to change the voting structure so that the union as a whole can vote to keep hold of the seceding nation/s in question.IE the denial of the right to self determination and that applies wether it be the EU refusing the right of secession of any member without an EU wide majority vote or the UK refusing the right of secession of a member of the UK union wishing to secede from the UK without a UK wide vote.
On that note the really worrying/scary thing is that the UK hasn’t said along the lines of the Scottish have the vote to secede at any time as is their right and we wish them every success assuming they ever vote to leave.When the reality seems to be more along the lines of that expected of Soviet Russia and the Yugoslav federation and Lincoln in the case of the CSA’s wish to secede.IE the UK union doesn’t seem to have changed much from the aggressive dictatorial federal machine which its been from the outset and which Harold almost succeeded in stopping in Sussex and Wallace almost succeeded in stopping in Scotland and which Collins and those fighting with him finally managed to stop in its tracks in Ireland.
It would be ironic if we’re all now tied into an even bigger federal machine in the form of the EU which will probably inevitably take the same line as that of most federations throughout history in just being anti democratic,dictatorial monsters,which trample all over the right of a nation’s right to self determination.
INDEPENDENCE FOR LEATHERHEAD “CF” for Presedente !!All those in favour please raise your hands ! Motion carried by a landslide,where’s the barbed wire and watch towers get them up and secure don’t let the ■■■■■■■ out !! Cheers Bewick.
Bewick:
INDEPENDENCE FOR LEATHERHEAD “CF” for Presedente !!All those in favour please raise your hands ! Motion carried by a landslide,where’s the barbed wire and watch towers get them up and secure don’t let the [zb] out !! Cheers Bewick.
No Surrey within Wessex without the EU bothering us any more is fine.As for you you’ll have to sort out wether the Mercians will change their minds about flogging you back to the Scottish for a few bob’s worth of silver.
It’s not the cost of the referendum that worries me it’s the cost of separation.
It will be phenomenal. We’re talking billions… It could only be countenanced by those used to spending other people’s money with no regard where it’s going to come from.
Jazzandy:
It’s not the cost of the referendum that worries me it’s the cost of separation.
It will be phenomenal. We’re talking billions… It could only be countenanced by those used to spending other people’s money with no regard where it’s going to come from.
If it’s supposedly going to cost ‘billions’ what is all the ‘extra’ money over that being spent now in question actually needed for and to pay exactly who and why.Considering that indepedence just means a change in the system of government to sovereign home rule and a change from a federal economic system to a seperately funded Scotland obviously from Scotland’s existing and potential future wealth creating sectors.Instead of an exchange of cash between England and Scotland in which it can only be that either the English are subsidising the Scottish or vice versa.Which independence would obviously put a stop to.It’s my guess that the unionist v nationalist argument in Scotland is nothing more than a difference of opinion between those there who think they’ll lose a fortune in English cash subsidising their economy and those who think that Scottish cash is subsidising the English.Either way one side of the border or the other is being ripped off to subsidise the other and idependence will obviously show which side that is.The unionists seeming to have more to protest about and therefore to lose in that regard than the nationalists.
Tommy Sheridan, Jim Sillars both affirmed that large scale nationalisation is on the menu. The railways, the shipyards, the oil industry! There will be a wholesale movement of businesses to our thriving economy where they will be welcome.
In one way it will be good to watch the Scots unable to blame the English for their shortcomings but the price will be too great for all of us.
Jazzandy:
Well the true colours are now coming out!
Tommy Sheridan, Jim Sillars both affirmed that large scale nationalisation is on the menu. The railways, the shipyards, the oil industry! There will be a wholesale movement of businesses to our thriving economy where they will be welcome.
In one way it will be good to watch the Scots unable to blame the English for their shortcomings but the price will be too great for all of us.
IF the Scots do get the YES vote and they make a right “pigs ear” of things in the next few years,don’t worry they’ll still blame the hated English,who else ! and they certainly won’t accept any blame for their own, very likely,shortcomings.Roll on Thursday and get it over whichever way ! Bewick.
swayze1:
BYE, then crack on stop moaning we have all had to put up with the crap from westminster village ,now u can sort your own selfs out
“Crack on stop moaning” EH there hasny been ony moaning from the Scottish side as far as I can see all the worrying is being done by you laddys south o the border in fact Mr Swayze1 count up the number of English posts and the number of Scottish and we are well outnumbered so I can only come to the conclusion that you laddys down south are a hellava lot more worried than we are.
Me I am gauny vote NO and just keep the fingers crossed.
why is this topic in the old trucks section? Mods not doing the housekeeping!
whilst I write, if Scotland goes alone , then England is stuffed. England needs Scotland, as you can see by the ■■■ licking the government is doing, Scotland don’t need England. It will be tough for the Scots initially, but the only way for them is upwards.
They are massive producers and exporters of fish, meat, oil, whiskey, water. What does England have / Produce? eff all!
I think the No campaign has been a little lacklustre and over-confident and the decision to leave it to Scottish Labour and Lib Dems might have been a bit shortsighted.
The Yes campaign has been marred by its xenophobia and it’s’ reliance on Salmond’s rabble rousing politics.
Neither side comes out of this squeaky clean but the issue is so serious and will affect our pockets to such a degree that I hope common sense prevails tomorrow.
and which Harold almost succeeded in stopping in Sussex and Wallace almost succeeded in stopping in Scotland and which Collins and those fighting with him finally managed to stop in its tracks in Ireland.
