McWilliam:
‘… The Union will never be the same again…’
Of course not.
On one hand there’s the Lib/Lab/Green/Cons leeching the (former) Union away to EU control quick sharp - as wants the Wee Pug and Nicola on the other wi’ their Saltired bonnets also aspiring to float in the Brussels trough 
Its ridiculous that we have come to this, since Blair & his government let the devolution genie out of the bottle the political scene in Scotland has got out of control, now we are reaping the rewards. I am however still a yes voter, it is the North of England I feel for stuck with the present status quo, places like Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle having their energy & confidence taken away so London can become even more richer & even more detached. It will be a sad day when Union breaks up but it has to happen. You can’t expect the English (or can you?) to underwrite devo max.
P.S. Northern Ireland more per head than any other country including Scotland.
Totally agree. The North of England seems to be ignored or forgotten by Westminster, so I can’t imagine how Scotland feels being even further north. Can’t blame them for wanting to take control of their own affairs.
LC85:
Its ridiculous that we have come to this, since Blair & his government let the devolution genie out of the bottle the political scene in Scotland has got out of control, now we are reaping the rewards. I am however still a yes voter, it is the North of England I feel for stuck with the present status quo, places like Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle having their energy & confidence taken away so London can become even more richer & even more detached. It will be a sad day when Union breaks up but it has to happen. You can’t expect the English (or can you?) to underwrite devo max.
P.S. Northern Ireland more per head than any other country including Scotland.
Totally agree. The North of England seems to be ignored or forgotten by Westminster, so I can’t imagine how Scotland feels being even further north. Can’t blame them for wanting to take control of their own affairs.
The fact is the north of the country shares a lot of responsibility for its own situation in that there was/is more support there for the type of Thatcherite economics that wrecked its industrial base than they’d like to think.While its never exactly been an economic utopia in the South either since she and those who’ve followed her were allowed to finish off the country’s wealth creating industrial sectors which applied throughout the country north to south.While the fact is the south of the country is subsidising the north.At least with whatever cash is left after the EU has taken its cut.Which would become increasingly clear assuming we get what’s needed in firstly Scottish independence and then a return to localised government and funding in which every part of the country has to look after itself.In which case we’d soon see who is actually being ripped off to subsidise who.
Happy Keith:
McWilliam:
‘… The Union will never be the same again…’Of course not.
On one hand there’s the Lib/Lab/Green/Cons leeching the (former) Union away to EU control quick sharp - as wants the Wee Pug and Nicola on the other wi’ their Saltired bonnets also aspiring to float in the Brussels trough
The reason for that is probably more a case of a 3 way fight between Federalism,Socialism and Nationalism.Socialism sharing the federalist ideology and in this case using Nationalism to further what it sees as an advantage in closer ties to the EU and less ties to the UK.
While UKIP have the opposite aims in still being basically federalists but who want closer ties between the UK but less ties to what it sees as the socialist EU.
Which just leaves the ‘real’ nationalists who can take advantage of the fight between the federalists and the socialist federalists to further the cause of real nationalism.In the case of Scotland by dumping Salmond after a vote for independence and in the case of England by seeing through the contradiction in Farage’s federalist ideology in the case of the UK and supposed anti federalist ideology in the case of the EU.
In either case the required out come being a seperate England and Scotland with neither being in the EU which is what differentiates real nationalism from the type of cynical manipulation of that cause by federalists when it suits them and nationalists when it doesn’t.
erfguy:
Oh Oh here we go another 12/14 pages o tripe. Eddie.
Nearly there. 
Carryfast:
Happy Keith:
McWilliam:
‘… The Union will never be the same again…’‘…Of course not…’
‘… Federalism,Socialism and Nationalism…’
They amount to mind-bending names with definitions so broad that I am lost with associated cleverness adding to confuse.
Surely, today is today with the name of whatever it is being academic clap-trap 
I’m guessing that we’ve all been conned by EU sponsored ultra-liberalism in all those named guises as World War Three is kicking off with Western severed heads in Syria and Iraq, etc, etc - as endorsed from some of those in a mosque near you & me
Could some Jocks be hoping to dodge a bit of it by voting ‘yes’ whilst meaning ‘please, not me, Mohammed: I’m a Sweaty and prood - I’m no’ longer British’?
Only asking… 
So correct me if I’m wrong …
IF>>
Scotland go it alone they still want help ie money to run their NHS Police fire and everything else but want to make their own laws and rules but still want to have a say in UK government …
It’s ■■■■■ bein’ Scottish…Some people hate the english, a’ don’t, they’re just ■■■■■■■■ we on the other hand are colonized by ■■■■■■■■
Link removed. Video content also comes under Rule 3 for language
nick2008:
So correct me if I’m wrong …
IF>>
Scotland go it alone they still want help ie money to run their NHS Police fire and everything else but want to make their own laws and rules but still want to have a say in UK government …
No independence means what it says no more involvement of Scottish MP’s in English policy making or transfer of funds between the two and vice versa.It’s actually the federalist no side that want what you’ve described.
Bye
Happy Keith:
Carryfast:
Happy Keith:
McWilliam:
‘… The Union will never be the same again…’‘…Of course not…’
‘… Federalism,Socialism and Nationalism…’
They amount to mind-bending names with definitions so broad that I am lost with associated cleverness adding to confuse.
Surely, today is today with the name of whatever it is being academic clap-trap
I’m guessing that we’ve all been conned by EU sponsored ultra-liberalism in all those named guises as World War Three is kicking off with Western severed heads in Syria and Iraq, etc, etc - as endorsed from some of those in a mosque near you & me
Could some Jocks be hoping to dodge a bit of it by voting ‘yes’ whilst meaning ‘please, not me, Mohammed: I’m a Sweaty and prood - I’m no’ longer British’?
Only asking…
The Islamic threat is all about religious extremism and is as much a threat to a federal UK as a seperate nations Britain.
Carryfast:
nick2008:
So correct me if I’m wrong …
IF>>
Scotland go it alone they still want help ie money to run their NHS Police fire and everything else but want to make their own laws and rules but still want to have a say in UK government …No independence means what it says no more involvement of Scottish MP’s in English policy making or transfer of funds between the two and vice versa.It’s actually the federalist no side that want what you’ve described.
but but that’s not what they’re saying … in one hand one lot want to be free .
in the other they want freedom but still keep a finger in the houses of P with money from the English , a bit like the Welsh
UKIP are currently priced in the markets to be winning 5-8 seats at the general election next year.
They need 50-60 to hold the balance of power in any coalition, especially if the Labour AND Tory poll both drop at once!
UKIP won’t get that number of seats though - if people still blindly vote for the uncumbent in their areas…
THIS is why I’ve always voted against the incumbent, regardless of the party they represent.
Who gets my vote? - Whoever is in third place typically… No point voting for the bod in second place, because for most areas, that’s merely the last incumbent to be ousted at the previous election! Yes, that does mean I voted Libdem at the last election… I won’t be doing that again! 
If Scotland votes YES - Cameron is obviously finished, but Labour will find it impossible to win a majority next year having lost so many Scottish Labour MPs, and the Libdems are already down to a projected single figure number of seats - because they too, stand to lose a few more seats out of Scotland going independent.
That means it’s “the incumbent” (on a very low 2015 turnout) or “an independent candidate” (possible in some areas of the UK) or “UKIP” to vote for.
I don’t think for a minute that the extreme parties are really going to poll more than Farage’s candidates - not now…
There might be a silver lining to this dark cloud over us yet - We might now be out of Europe by this time next year as well! 
nick2008:
Carryfast:
nick2008:
So correct me if I’m wrong …
IF>>
Scotland go it alone they still want help ie money to run their NHS Police fire and everything else but want to make their own laws and rules but still want to have a say in UK government …No independence means what it says no more involvement of Scottish MP’s in English policy making or transfer of funds between the two and vice versa.It’s actually the federalist no side that want what you’ve described.
but but that’s not what they’re saying … in one hand one lot want to be free .
in the other they want freedom but still keep a finger in the houses of P with money from the English , a bit like the Welsh
That is what they are saying depending on which side of the argument you’re referring to.
The nationalist side wants to cut all ties with England both economic and political.It is the unionist side which wants to keep the whole scam going.The question in that case being why do so many of the English support the ongoing status quo in which English policy is made by Scottish MP’s. 
nick2008:
So correct me if I’m wrong …
IF>>
Scotland go it alone they still want help ie money to run their NHS Police fire and everything else but want to make their own laws and rules but still want to have a say in UK government …
Ironically Nick, if Scotland stays in the UK then the scenario you just described will apply, just as it does right at this very minute. Thats exactly how it works now.
UK Government decides their budgets and pays them. Of course, as Scotland is part of the UK they do have a say in UK Government. They (The Scots) have been promised even more power to make their own descisions regarding Laws etc… Should they choose to reject Independance.
The main thing what will change, is what no one seems to be actually saying. And that thing is that if Scotland was Independant, then Scotland would recieve the taxes that are currently paid and NOT the Treasury. Who then allocates a bit of it back to them 
Like i pointed out earlier, it seems that 8% of the Population do indeed generate a tremendous amount of revenue.
Makes you wonder why everyone is tripping over themselves to ask them to stay. They should just be upfront and say…“we (the UK) need your revenue and resources” ?
Winseer:
UKIP are currently priced in the markets to be winning 5-8 seats at the general election next year.They need 50-60 to hold the balance of power in any coalition, especially if the Labour AND Tory poll both drop at once!
UKIP won’t get that number of seats though - if people still blindly vote for the uncumbent in their areas…
THIS is why I’ve always voted against the incumbent, regardless of the party they represent.
Who gets my vote? - Whoever is in third place typically… No point voting for the bod in second place, because for most areas, that’s merely the last incumbent to be ousted at the previous election! Yes, that does mean I voted Libdem at the last election… I won’t be doing that again!If Scotland votes YES - Cameron is obviously finished, but Labour will find it impossible to win a majority next year having lost so many Scottish Labour MPs, and the Libdems are already down to a projected single figure number of seats - because they too, stand to lose a few more seats out of Scotland going independent.
That means it’s “the incumbent” (on a very low 2015 turnout) or “an independent candidate” (possible in some areas of the UK) or “UKIP” to vote for.
I don’t think for a minute that the extreme parties are really going to poll more than Farage’s candidates - not now…
There might be a silver lining to this dark cloud over us yet - We might now be out of Europe by this time next year as well!
I don’t think that anyone expects UKIP to get or need 50-60 seats to hold the balance of power.The key to us getting out of the EU is a massive Conservative turnaround,in its so far federalist mindset,which isolates Cameron and the Con Federalist tendency to the point of it being irrelevant,and allies itself with UKIP.
The problem is that UKIP just seems to be a splinter group of the Cons who are basically federalists ( Unionists ) at heart just the same as the rest of them.The only reason why that splinter group has turned against the EU being the politics of the EU not necessarily the issue of federalism itself.Which is why we’ve seen Farage joining Cameron and all the rest in grovelling to the Unionist cause in Scotland.As opposed to doing what any ‘real’ anti federalist would be doing in supporting the idea of Scottish ( and English ) nationalism while attacking the idea of so called nationalism that is obviously based on a typically socialist/federalist agenda in the form of Salmond’s policies.For that reason I’d take the opposite view to yours.In that the Scottish attempt to finally secede from the UK is most likely doomed to failure just as our attempts to leave the EU are.With the probable result being a no vote to Scottish independence thereby strengthening Cameron’s position in an environment where the federalists in the form of a LabLibdemCon coalition wins out against UKIP and any possible anti EU Conservative rebellion.Thereby dooming both us and Scotland to a thousand year reich of the continuing UK union which is itself a sub division of a federal Europe.The reason being an unholy alliance of pro EU socialists and pro EU big business.In which as throughout history a federal ‘UK’ is seen as being easier to manage by the even bigger federation of Europe than all the seperate nations of the British Isles.
With even the hard won idependence from the UK federation of Ireland also now being thrown away again to the point where the UK is again calling the shots regarding Irish policy based on the big business and EU agendas 
.
I find it quite funny that now there is no English and Scottish for English but it is British. Do not tear us apart - they say. But ask an English man if he’s British he says I am freaking English not British.
Some of you mention UKIP here which is the most hypocritical in all that debate. Mr F wants to get out of the EU and he wants a full in - out referendum but in the same time he would like to prevent Scottish from leaving the union that they are not satisfied with. UK and EU have few things in common and one of them is sure - it is a union of countries where people supposed to have democratic vote. How would you feel if Angela Merkel come here before EU referendum to beg you not to leave because you will loose on it.
Sounds stupid huh. All that desperate moves from Westminster and the businesses towards Scotland are only threats i.e you’ll loose, we’ll move out we put our prices up etc. But what if Scotland says to RBS - ok go to London but we take our money out, to JL - ok put your prices up but we will make your business harder and allow competition to have it easier, revoke licenses for supermarkets and others simply saying F… O… we won’t have bullies businesses in our country as we want better for our-self’s. Is the JL or RBS or any other British business the one and only in the world. What do the politicians do. They promise. Like before every elections. It looks like the only one to loose here is not Scotland but other members of United Kingdom that try not to loose valuable Scotland.
Why suddenly all of the UK loves Scottish people…■■?
Let them decide.
MisterStrood:
I find it quite funny that now there is no English and Scottish for English but it is British. Do not tear us apart - they say. But ask an English man if he’s British he says I am freaking English not British.
Some of you mention UKIP here which is the most hypocritical in all that debate. Mr F wants to get out of the EU and he wants a full in - out referendum but in the same time he would like to prevent Scottish from leaving the union that they are not satisfied with. UK and EU have few things in common and one of them is sure - it is a union of countries where people supposed to have democratic vote. How would you feel if Angela Merkel come here before EU referendum to beg you not to leave because you will loose on it.
Sounds stupid huh. All that desperate moves from Westminster and the businesses towards Scotland are only threats i.e you’ll loose, we’ll move out
^ This.However like all Federalists Merkel has already ‘warned’ us concerning any possible EU exit.
telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina … -exit.html
The fact is in general Federations are easy to get into but very difficult to get out of.As for so called democracy we’ve already lived for centuries within a system whereby Scottish MP’s decide English policy while the same applies in the case of Euro politicians deciding UK policy.Dictatorial undemocratic decision making being the main inherent flaw in the idea of federations.In addition to the arbitrary transfer/re distribution of wealth from the places where it’s created to other places where it isn’t.
Montmerency:
erfguy:
Oh Oh here we go another 12/14 pages o tripe. Eddie.Nearly there.
Aye well when Carryfast starts boy can he generate some garbage he must have managed three-quarters o this lot on his own. Eddie.
erfguy:
Montmerency:
erfguy:
Oh Oh here we go another 12/14 pages o tripe. Eddie.Nearly there.
Aye well when Carryfast starts boy can he generate some garbage he must have managed three-quarters o this lot on his own. Eddie.
Am I the only person who doesn’t even bother reading Carryfast’s ramblings.Is this page 12 yet?