kr79:
Wheel Nut:
kr79:
Geoffo:
Why are so many British against being In Europe ■■Tin hat time…
What benefit has it brought us?
Hadrians wall
The aquaduct . . . . oh, dont forget the wine and its safe to walk the streets now Reg.
GasGas:
Mr Carryfast,All the farmland in Britain cannot feed even the population of Greater London.
We have to trade with other nations…or starve.
The challenge is to produce stuff that the world wants to buy, and so we cannot turn our backs on the world.We’d end up like North Korea (which incidentally is propped up by food aid from PRC and USA although its own people are not told that).
Probably the only two nations in the world that could exist in complete economic isolation are the Peoples Republic of China and the United States of America. Both of those nations have tried isolationism and have decided they are better off trading with the rest of the world.
The rise in protectionism in the early part of the 1930s is now universally accepted as having prolonged the Great Depression and aided the rise of Hitler and Stalin and the start of WW2.
I don’t think anyone is going to make that mistake again.
I think you’ve got it all wrong about China considering that they’ve never been able to feed their population which is the likely motive behind the fact that they want to put us into debt for payment of manufactured goods which we could make for ourselves with our food products and probably later our farm land real estate being used as payment.
So exactly what is it that you’re intending to produce that the world wants to buy with the exception of oil and food exports considering that we’ve wiped out our manufacturing industry and the means to fuel it on the basis of turning ourselves into a service based economy.While most of the world can now produce most manufactured goods that it needs for itself anyway and if they haven’t got the know how or the investment and production capacity the Brits etc seem only too happy to effectively give it away to them in return for a few kick backs for the bankers.While those that can’t haven’t got the money to pay us for anything anyway just as the Chinese don’t have without being given what is effectively just a big foreign aid scam.
Not forgetting that you’ll now have to subtract oil and gas exports from those figures considering that we’ve depleted the reserves by flogging it all off in exchange for imported goods that we could have made for ourselves.Thereby making ourselves net importers of energy all paid for using borrowed money just as is the case with the trade deficit which we’re running in general.
You seem to have swallowed all the Thatcherite bs concerning the Great Depression all being caused by protectionsism and the lack of globalisation when in fact it was just caused by the same issues which we’ve had since the start of Thatcherism that being de industrialisation and resulting mass redundancies in the manufacturing sector and excessive borrowing owing to trade deficits.All of which was proved by the US economy of the 1960’s compared to the British/ European and US economies of the 1920’s-30’s all of which is returning now with the gradual and continuing decline since the late 1970’s when the US and Britain abandoned the idea of a Fordist (not North Korean) economy.
No surprise that Germany seems to be one of the last last western economies standing all because of the fact that Germany didn’t go for the Thatcherite idea of a service and banking based economy.Probably because Germany has always been better at looking after it’s national interests than Britain and you can bet that if we leave the EU the Germans would follow because it’s only our mug contributions and imports of German goods which we could make for ourselves that makes it worth Germany being in it. 
I didn’t say the great depression was CAUSED by protectionism (it was caused by an overheated American stock market and a consequent crisis in the American banking sector), I said it was prolonged by it.The British economy was actually quite robust in the 1930s with expansion in aircraft and automotive manufacture, housing (think of all those 1930s suburbs) and road building and radio and associated consumer electronics.
The sectors that suffered were coal and steel, where the small size of the British market and the high cost of British product made it difficult to compete against the likes of Germany.
We don’t produce a food surplus in this country, and if we did it would make no difference to feeding the 1.3 billion people who live in China.
GasGas:
I didn’t say the great depression was CAUSED by protectionism (it was caused by an overheated American stock market and a consequent crisis in the American banking sector), I said it was prolonged by it.The British economy was actually quite robust in the 1930s with expansion in aircraft and automotive manufacture, housing (think of all those 1930s suburbs) and road building and radio and associated consumer electronics.The sectors that suffered were coal and steel, where the small size of the British market and the high cost of British product made it difficult to compete against the likes of Germany.
We don’t produce a food surplus in this country, and if we did it would make no difference to feeding the 1.3 billion people who live in China.
Just like today the great depression was the result of lack of spending power in the general economy caused by reduncancies and factory closures and low wages caused by oversupply of the labour market.The British economy (from the point of view of the working classes) was actually on it’s knees in the 1930’s just as it was during the 1920’s and it was only war production with workers working for peanuts just as they’d been previously and then a mass army call up which made a difference to the general levels of unemployment but spending power and living standards remained just the same (as bad).
As for those 1930’s suburbs all they did was to provide short term jobs in the building industry at the expense of tearing up load of valuable farm land to house Londoners which in the long term has resulted in an expensive overdeveloped urban sprawl in the counties surrounding London and ironically even more demand for Surrey’s housing stock at the expense of te indigenous local population,by Londoners,than there was before the developers turned much of the place into ‘Greater London’.
The expansion in Britain’s industry and economic growth that you’re describing actually started in the 1960’s which was around 10 years behind the Germans,who we’d just beaten in ww2,and America.The rest is history.
Actually, the aircraft, motor and electronics sectors were buoyant in the 1930s, too.
There’s a book called ‘Slide Rule’ written by Neville Shute (of A Town Like Alice fame); it’s his biography and describes how easy it was to start up and run profitably an aircraft design and manufacturing company at the time. In his case it was a company called Airspeed.
Radio, TV, roadbuilding, and housebuilding were other boom industries of the 1930s. The country was recovering well from the 1920s when an over-reliance on heavy industry (like coal) was causing big problems. Although even then, the road transport industry was thriving, with many ex-army drivers setting themselves us as hauliers using ex-army trucks.
Sadly they were held back by the huge political influence of the ‘big 4’ railway companies who set the anti-truck political agenda that still haunts us to this day. Had road transport been given a free reign back then, and car development encouraged rather than hindered by a road tax based on ‘nominal horsepower’ that forced manufacturers to build inefficient long-stroke engines the economy would have recovered quicker, and we might have had better engines to fight ww2 with as well.
GasGas:
Actually, the aircraft, motor and electronics sectors were buoyant in the 1930s, too.There’s a book called ‘Slide Rule’ written by Neville Shute (of A Town Like Alice fame); it’s his biography and describes how easy it was to start up and run profitably an aircraft design and manufacturing company at the time. In his case it was a company called Airspeed.
Radio, TV, roadbuilding, and housebuilding were other boom industries of the 1930s. The country was recovering well from the 1920s when an over-reliance on heavy industry (like coal) was causing big problems. Although even then, the road transport industry was thriving, with many ex-army drivers setting themselves us as hauliers using ex-army trucks.
Sadly they were held back by the huge political influence of the ‘big 4’ railway companies who set the anti-truck political agenda that still haunts us to this day. Had road transport been given a free reign back then, and car development encouraged rather than hindered by a road tax based on ‘nominal horsepower’ that forced manufacturers to build inefficient long-stroke engines the economy would have recovered quicker, and we might have had better engines to fight ww2 with as well.
Having been told what life was really like for the average British working class family at the time by those who were there like my parents I’d take Neville Shute’s comments with a large pinch of salt.The reality after the general strike of 1926 defeat was one of continuing downward pressure on wages with unemployed workers often trying to outbid those in work for their jobs for a lower wage.Things got even worse through the 1930’s not better until war became inevitable when suddenly the factories had to get production levels up but even then wages were never allowed to rise to reflect that.
Trust me no one in the proper working classes could afford to buy any of those new houses being built throughout North Surrey.In my own family’s case my parents were still living in their parents’ same small rented Victorian houses that they grew up in during the 1920’s and 1930’s,into the 1950’s,while their surviving parents were still living in those same houses into the 1970’s.
One of my Grandfathers was actually a typical ‘truck driver’ of the time until his death in the early 1940’s and the fact is it was a very low paid job in which the bonus of getting some of the coal,which he was hauling for the local gas works, was probably worth as much as the wage.
But the idea that we could possibly be ‘over reliant’ on coal ( when in fact we’d have been even poorer without it being that it made us self sufficient in domestic and industrial energy supplies ) seems as unrealistic as Neville Shute’s bs and the idea that we’re all better off now in the EU and under the global free market economy.Which is taking us backwards because of the reliance on imported goods which depresses wage rates in addition to building up an unsustainable trade deficit that’s being funded by borrowed and printed money.
The fact is unless we change back to the type of industrial Fordist economy and self sufficiency in coal fired energy that we had in the 1960’s this country is heading for an economic fall that will eventually make the 1930’s seem like a boom in the long term.
Contrary to Neville Shute’s ideas this is some of the reality of the 1930’s for the ordinary working classes.
scva.org.uk/education/resources/pdfs/14.pdf
As for British engineering the Merlin and Griffon were just fine for getting the job done in defeating the Luftwaffe just like the Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth were in getting American troops here in time for D Day by being able to outrun the Kreigsmarine’s U Boat fleet.None of which would have got built under the economics of the early 1930’s without some foresight by some very bright people who told the bankers to zb off and got the government to come up with the funds unless they wanted to lose the whole country to Hitler in the near future. 
Actually at least one group of working class people in the South East could afford to buy their own houses in the 1930s.
They were working at the newly-built Ford factory in Dagenham, and it was company policy to pay the workers enough so they could have their own house and a Ford car to park outside.
The waterside location was chosen over Ford’s old assembly line in Manchester (now the AK Worthington depot) so Ford could pour imported iron ore in at one end and load completed cars for export onto ships at the other. It was the largest car factory in Europe, and only built in the UK because we didn’t have the tariff barriers that other European countries did.
Britain is a small island nation and has always had to trade with the rest of the world. Even the ancient Greeks imported tin and gold from Cornwall and exported manufactured goods back in return. If we didn’t trade internationally, which would be the consequence of protectionism, we’d starve.
In the 1950s we exported more cars and motorcycles than any other country in the world. We lost that leadership, not because of unfair foreign competition (the first Datsuns were actually Austins made under licence, the first DAF and Scania diesels were Leyland made under licence, the first big Kawasaki motorbike was a BSA made under licence) but because management elected to take profit rather than invest in new product and the unions were perpetually striking for little or no reason.
If British industry had been shielded from foreign competition it would have been even worse. We now have a very successful automotive sector. The small inventive parts (Ricardo etc) are still British owned and run but the larger parts are foreign owned and run. The Japanese, Americans and Germans are better at running large manufacturing concerns than us, but we are better at the smaller cutting-edge stuff.
We need to trade with other nations, and we have to compete with them.
GasGas:
Actually at least one group of working class people in the South East could afford to buy their own houses in the 1930s.They were working at the newly-built Ford factory in Dagenham, and it was company policy to pay the workers enough so they could have their own house and a Ford car to park outside.
The waterside location was chosen over Ford’s old assembly line in Manchester (now the AK Worthington depot) so Ford could pour imported iron ore in at one end and load completed cars for export onto ships at the other. It was the largest car factory in Europe, and only built in the UK because we didn’t have the tariff barriers that other European countries did.
Britain is a small island nation and has always had to trade with the rest of the world. Even the ancient Greeks imported tin and gold from Cornwall and exported manufactured goods back in return. If we didn’t trade internationally, which would be the consequence of protectionism, we’d starve.
In the 1950s we exported more cars and motorcycles than any other country in the world. We lost that leadership, not because of unfair foreign competition (the first Datsuns were actually Austins made under licence, the first DAF and Scania diesels were Leyland made under licence, the first big Kawasaki motorbike was a BSA made under licence) but because management elected to take profit rather than invest in new product and the unions were perpetually striking for little or no reason.
If British industry had been shielded from foreign competition it would have been even worse. We now have a very successful automotive sector. The small inventive parts (Ricardo etc) are still British owned and run but the larger parts are foreign owned and run. The Japanese, Americans and Germans are better at running large manufacturing concerns than us, but we are better at the smaller cutting-edge stuff.
We need to trade with other nations, and we have to compete with them.
That sounds like the bs of the 1979 Conservative Party manifesto and Callaghan’s before that.
I think the example of Ford UK as opposed to Ford USA actually defeats the idea of the global free market economy because the deal in question was a case of if you want to sell Fords here then you build them here on a totally autonomous basis.As you say right down to foundry level.Which carried on through into the 1970’s.European Fords were built in Europe for the Euro market not here just as applied in the case of GM too.US Ford and GM products were mainly built for the US and North American market.While British Ford and GM products were reserved for the British and colonial markets.But Euro Ford and GM plants concentrated on their respective markets with very little,if any,cross cooperation beween them all.Until of course we joined the EEC.
At which point we were well on the way to losing our colonial reserved markets to locally produced Ford and GM products.While the European Ford and GM plants started to take more and more work from Dagenham and Luton with more and more Euro manufactured componentry finding it’s way into British market Ford and GM products.Which effectively meant losing British jobs and therefore tax revenues and spending power on an ever increasing basis to Europe.Which is how Luton and Daghenham ended up where it is today.Added to that was the issue of those Ford and GM products which were made here on an ever decreasing basis were effectively turning into what were effectively imports which competed with our truly domestic manufacturers like Jaguar,Rover,Triumph.That’s even ignoring the fact that the revenues earn’t by Ford and GM UK were findng their way back to America anyway one way or another while all the other Euro and Japanese manufacturers were also allowed a virtually open door importation policy on the British market which was the final nail in British Leyland’s fortunes.
The fact is the US economy of the 1960’s proved that it’s all about running a Fordist economy based on high wages creating demand for domestically manufactured products in which exports are just a side show and in which imports are kept to a minimum on the basis of why import anything which we can make for ourselves.That was,of course,until the bs vehicle emission regs,and Reaganomics which led to America getting involved in the global free market economy,which opened up the US economy to mass imports,and the resulting trade deficit,zb’d up the US economy just as it did ours.
The fact is the EU and the global free market economy have been a disaster for Britain and the US with ironically Germany being the last one standing.No surprise considering the way in which it’s government stood by the German manufacturing industry and high wage employment.In which German workers were paid enough to drive BMW’s,Mercs,and German made Ford and GM products rather than imports of stuff they could make for themselves.Although it now seems that even Germany is throwing away the economic miracle to the bs of EU ‘expansion’ and the global free market economy.It’s my bet that German workers won’t be as stupid as British ones in accepting a situation in which they drive Nissan Micra’s while making BMW’s and Mercs for rich Chinese businessmen and a few western bankers getting kickbacks from the scam which is the global free market economy.
The fact is the Thatcherites and Reagan supporters got what they wanted of a subservient beaten into submssion workforce,(much of it now unemployed),and a service industry led economy,all trying to survive in the global free market economy.The result is a Europe and US in economic meltdown while China gets ever richer and more powerful.
I see there is more good news (being sarcastic) from England. Maltby colliery closing in March so 540 more miners out of work and British power stations even more reliant on imported coal. According to the BBC Maltby colliery produces one million tons of coal per year, 60% of which is supplied to Drax power station. Marvellous eh, now we can import even more crap coal from south America and elsewhere on Greek owned, Liberian flagged, Filipino crewed ships while more of our workers join the dole queue in our derelict country.
robinhood_1984:
I see there is more good news (being sarcastic) from England. Maltby colliery closing in March so 540 more miners out of work and British power stations even more reliant on imported coal. According to the BBC Maltby colliery produces one million tons of coal per year, 60% of which is supplied to Drax power station. Marvellous eh, now we can import even more crap coal from south America and elsewhere on Greek owned, Liberian flagged, Filipino crewed ships while more of our workers join the dole queue in our derelict country.
^ This.
GasGas:
Actually, the aircraft, motor and electronics sectors were buoyant in the 1930s, too.There’s a book called ‘Slide Rule’ written by Neville Shute (of A Town Like Alice fame); it’s his biography and describes how easy it was to start up and run profitably an aircraft design and manufacturing company at the time. In his case it was a company called Airspeed.
Radio, TV, roadbuilding, and housebuilding were other boom industries of the 1930s. The country was recovering well from the 1920s when an over-reliance on heavy industry (like coal) was causing big problems. Although even then, the road transport industry was thriving, with many ex-army drivers setting themselves us as hauliers using ex-army trucks.
Sadly they were held back by the huge political influence of the ‘big 4’ railway companies who set the anti-truck political agenda that still haunts us to this day. Had road transport been given a free reign back then, and car development encouraged rather than hindered by a road tax based on ‘nominal horsepower’ that forced manufacturers to build inefficient long-stroke engines the economy would have recovered quicker, and we might have had better engines to fight ww2 with as well.
My claim to fame was that I lived in the same house as Neville Shute Norway while he worked with Barnes Wallis on the R100 at North Howden. I was a little later at the same address though.
We had two other neighbours I remember, one was called Brian Blackburn who was part of the Blackburns Aircraft family which became Hawker Siddeley the other was Eric Folland whose father designed the Glosters and gave his name to the Folland Gnat. They also fell under the Hawker banner. There was no shortage of technology & engineering work on the river Humber.
As for the haulage industry, try reading this book; “As I Remember” by Harold Bridges 47 years in road transport. A brilliant look back into the history of war, working and the transport act 1968
Wheel Nut:
GasGas:
Actually, the aircraft, motor and electronics sectors were buoyant in the 1930s, too.There’s a book called ‘Slide Rule’ written by Neville Shute (of A Town Like Alice fame); it’s his biography and describes how easy it was to start up and run profitably an aircraft design and manufacturing company at the time. In his case it was a company called Airspeed.
Radio, TV, roadbuilding, and housebuilding were other boom industries of the 1930s. The country was recovering well from the 1920s when an over-reliance on heavy industry (like coal) was causing big problems. Although even then, the road transport industry was thriving, with many ex-army drivers setting themselves us as hauliers using ex-army trucks.
Sadly they were held back by the huge political influence of the ‘big 4’ railway companies who set the anti-truck political agenda that still haunts us to this day. Had road transport been given a free reign back then, and car development encouraged rather than hindered by a road tax based on ‘nominal horsepower’ that forced manufacturers to build inefficient long-stroke engines the economy would have recovered quicker, and we might have had better engines to fight ww2 with as well.
0
My claim to fame was that I lived in the same house as Neville Shute Norway while he worked with Barnes Wallis on the R100 at North Howden. I was a little later at the same address though.We had two other neighbours I remember, one was called Brian Blackburn who was part of the Blackburns Aircraft family which became Hawker Siddeley the other was Eric Folland whose father designed the Glosters and gave his name to the Folland Gnat. They also fell under the Hawker banner. There was no shortage of technology & engineering work on the river Humber.
The issue isn’t one of technnology or the activeties of the rich and famous connected with British industry during the 1930’s.It’s the levels of employment and incomes as they applied to the ordinary general workforce at the time.My uncle worked for Hawkers in Kingston during most of the 1930’s and during and post WW2 and my father was employed in armaments manufacture during the early 1940’s and then Napiers and Vickers post WW2.In the case of my uncle the wage was only enough to pay for a similar small Victorian house of the same type which he’d grown up in during the early 1920’s and as I’ve said elsewhere in my Father’s case the wage didn’t even pay for the deposit on a reasonably modern house even when added to my mother’s wage at the time when they were married even in the early 1950’s which is why he left the aircraft manufacturing industry to work in a small precision engineering firm.Contrary to the typical tory proganda,concerning a so called militant worker scenario,the situation was more often a case of if you don’t like the wages there’s plenty more out there who’ll do the job if you don’t want it sometimes even for less money.In the case of Hawkers,during the 1930’s at least,the wage was based on piece work rates based on virtually impossible time and motion targets like most other British factories.
Which has mostly been the issue in the uk economy.Which,contrary to the ideal of Fordism,has too often been all about a low wage economy based on a rigged over supplied labour market.Which then has the knock on effect of excessive demands on those in work with too few workers having to do more than their fair share of the work and support those who aren’t working.Together with excessively slow rates of economic growth and living standards.Or as in the case now reversal. 
You can blame foreign producers for our economic woes all you like, but the fact remains that we have to import food and raw material that we do not have here.
To pay for these essentials, we have to export goods and services.
We can only export these goods and services if they are of good enough value for other countries to want to buy them…and other countries will only open markets to our goods and services if our markets are open to their goods and services.
It’s also a mistake to think that what Britain exports has to be a physical product. One of the most successful British companies globally is ARM Holdings.It doesn’t make anything, but it designs the microprocessors that are used in most of the world’s mobile phones and other similar devices.
It makes sense for the microprocessors to be designed here, where the brains are, and made elsewhere by specialists in manufacturing who are closer to where the customers for the product (mostly Korean manufacturing companies who make mobile phones etc) are.
ARM isn’t interested in manufacturing…it’s not what it’s good at. But it is good at designing things, can pay its staff very well, and makes a big contribution to the British economy. It couldn’t do that if we were surrounded by tariff barriers whose purpose was to prevent British consumers and companies from buying the products that they wanted from all over the world.
GasGas:
You can blame foreign producers for our economic woes all you like, but the fact remains that we have to import food and raw material that we do not have here.To pay for these essentials, we have to export goods and services.
We can only export these goods and services if they are of good enough value for other countries to want to buy them…and other countries will only open markets to our goods and services if our markets are open to their goods and services.
It’s also a mistake to think that what Britain exports has to be a physical product. One of the most successful British companies globally is ARM Holdings.It doesn’t make anything, but it designs the microprocessors that are used in most of the world’s mobile phones and other similar devices.
It makes sense for the microprocessors to be designed here, where the brains are, and made elsewhere by specialists in manufacturing who are closer to where the customers for the product (mostly Korean manufacturing companies who make mobile phones etc) are.
ARM isn’t interested in manufacturing…it’s not what it’s good at. But it is good at designing things, can pay its staff very well, and makes a big contribution to the British economy. It couldn’t do that if we were surrounded by tariff barriers whose purpose was to prevent British consumers and companies from buying the products that they wanted from all over the world.
Which part of the country won’t and never has survived by importing anything which it can make for itself don’t you understand and since when wasn’t Britain any good at manufacturing.If we don’t stop British customers from buying stuff from all over the world,paid for by working in service industries,often with the worthless qualifications that they got at college,often based on the bs idea that every Brit will be a scientist and designer,then the unemployment rates and trade deficit which you’ll run up will eventually sink the place just like Greece and every other country which doesn’t have a decent manufacturing base and which imports more stuff and hardware than it exports.When what is needed is the ideal of a Fordist economy and that means not importing anything which we can make for ourselves.We’ve had years of your type of idea and look where it’s got us compared to the US economy of the 1960’s.
neil46:
‘…we need mainland europe more than they need us…’
I don’t 
My 50p says that’s scaremongering nonsense - and a lot in the UK think that way too rather than follow a federalist & a very deathly-dull sheep trail - of which not one politician dares spell out as our future if we carry on with this EU fiasco currently costing the UK £50,000,000 per day (that’s fifty million every day) from our taxes 
We, the British, are good world citizens, good workers and good world neighbours, etc, etc, etc but suckers for believing we should stay ‘in’ to keep Greece afloat or Germany from bashing the Frogs & invading Poland again.
We are good at intervening to get rid of tyrranical nutters and embracing their refugees, etc, etc, etc - but we make rubbish Europeans because we’re British and that’s that.
Just because we live next door to continental Europe doesn’t mean we should give them the keys to our once very functional front door - or our cheque book without the courtesy of asking us British subjects the straight question as never before, ie., Should the UK be in or out of this undemocratic & eternal con.
I agree with Carryfast. He’s written my essay for me, so I get out of doing my homework this week.
The EU is a bent corupt unelected( by public vote) It is for those who run in ei Germany and france,one need only look at Greece it was showered with money from the EU they then bought german trucks and cars , motor bikes ect ect that they could not afford,a tax system in Greece mean that when a Greek dies the death tax on his property is so high that their decendants can not afford it and so the land is taken from them to pay the tax and it is people outside Greece who are buying, normal Greeks never needed the EU but their government and the people in it did so they couldhave accese to the rich pickings afforded by EU, THE SAME WILL HAPPEN WITH SCOTLAND
fuse:
The EU is a bent corupt unelected( by public vote) It is for those who run in ei Germany and france,one need only look at Greece it was showered with money from the EU they then bought german trucks and cars , motor bikes ect ect that they could not afford,a tax system in Greece mean that when a Greek dies the death tax on his property is so high that their decendants can not afford it and so the land is taken from them to pay the tax and it is people outside Greece who are buying, normal Greeks never needed the EU but their government and the people in it did so they couldhave accese to the rich pickings afforded by EU, THE SAME WILL HAPPEN WITH SCOTLAND
Maybe that’s why Cameron decided to hold a Scottish indepence election before an EU referendum.That situation would look different if both Scotland and England vote out of the EU then the Scottish vote for independence afterwards.But if we both stay in the EU and Scotland stays tied to England what’s the difference that still leaves us all open to being stitched up by ze Germans in that case.Scottish independence would only work if England and Scotland both leave the EU.Which still leaves the issue of a trade deficit with the rest of the world if we stay with the global free market economy which is even worse than the trade deficit with the EU.
GasGas:
There would have to be a full-on land border between England and Scotland with customs, TIR the lot.Scots living in England and English living in Scotland would have to decide which passport they wanted.
Scotland would have to have its own currency, and take responsibility for its defence or join NATO…if NATO will have them.
I don’t think they’ve thought it through…
You have the "Hadrians Wall
Thats it, Hadrian is going on “Cowboy Builders”