There has been a lot of argument and insults on this thread and it is obvious that everyone has their own beliefs and convictions.
Personally , the only way I can judge unions and their powers is in what my life has been and now is.
I left school in 1965 and started as an apprentivce diesel mechanic. By '68 I had given that up and was driving, as a union member.
I did various driving jobs, at that time if you didn’t like the colour of the truck on a Monday you got a different job on the Tuesday
I was on strike , once in '79 for 4 weeks, was made redundant after 18 years and got the legal minmum payout and got my last job lasting for 16 years untill made redundant again.
I was paid off with £21k (union negotiated) and decided that I could afford to retire at 60 on my savings. I only once had a job paying mega wages and it didn’t last long, the rest have been above average but not by a lot.
So, to sum up
I have retired to the coast, own my house, my car, new caravan, have at least 4 weeks abroad every year, draw a pension, collect no benefits and have enough savings to keep going for 20 years at present rates, I have one more company pension to draw when I am 65 along with my OAP.
My wife has only ever worked part time, staying at home to bring up the kids.
In my working life I think that I have spent no more than 100 nights away from home but have always worked around 60 hours a week.
I have always been a union member, still am, and apart from the 4 week strike have taken part in no other dispute at all (in fact, during the 4 week strike I was initially told by my boss not to come in )
.I think the terms and conditions in the companies I have worked for, along with the various things that the unions have done that don’t show on the radar have enabled me to be in this fortunate position
Do I think that unions have been good for me… bet your life I do.
They are along way from perfect and have made some terrible mistakes, but will drivers be better without them, IMHO…no.
Make of that what you will.
I am glad you are in that position, Del, but thanks to other unions there are countless others who are not anywhere close to that, aren’t there? Your union obviously had a less radical point of view. I have said that I have nothing against unions as such, but I have a lot against militancy and anarchy that is started, encouraged and supprted by unions who then sit back and leave the workers to their own devices. The miners, the auto workers, the shipbuilders and dockers, the train drivers… All completely ruined by union anarchy.
A union which actually does what it is supposed to do, such as negotiating your redundancy payments and protecting people from threat is one thing, but to deliberately set out to bring down a government by blackmail is wrong. And that is precisely what it is when they go all out like that. It is extortion.
And our own Strawman (curryfart) is testimony to that. Self confessed middle class, self confessed Jag owner… Like I said, the most equal of all the pigs in Animal Farm.
Carryfast:
jimti:
Carryfast:
Ironicically the only time that I recieved a disciplinary warning was because of a dispute concerning a collective agreement made between the union and my employers on my behalf and which I had’nt been consulted about and never agreed to.So it does’nt always follow that collective agreements are always not in the guvnor’s favour and sometimes it’s possible to find the union backing the guvnor’s position against the members on the shop floor,in which case the guvors seem happy enough to take the union position if it suits them,in just the same way that many of those on the management side,who shouted loudest against communist infiltration in the union movement,were happy enough to get involved with communism when there’s a few quid to be made out of it.So to go back through all this thread are you for or against the Unions, or in other words would you vote for some collective that would do to you what I have highlighted in Your post?
Take your own advice and keep the troll spray for yourself.The idea of unions is’nt perfect sometimes they get it wrong and sometimes they hire leaders who have’nt got a clue when it comes to representing the members interests just like the government and the country.That does’nt mean that they’re a lost cause and with a bit of thought and some decent teeth they could still work just as they have in history in keeping wage rates high enough to keep the economy solvent.But we’ve had Thatcher’s ideas for thelast 30 years and look where it got us.But it’s not surprising to see that free speech is’t liked in the brave new world.
But still they want to rule the nation, don’t get me wrong, the idea would be sound if it wasn’t for the fact that most union leaders are just after personal glory and don’t give a flying fig for the workers they profess to be helping, I have been around for a long time and in all that time I have never seen any one apart from the union leaders themselves get any benefit from industrial action in the LONG TERM. They fight for higher pay, the workers get it, the price of goods go up to cover the costs so the workers fight for higher pay to buy the more expensive goods. The union man still has a very well paid job that isn’t really needed and also takes away the workers wages in subs. The only winner is the onion man. But the down trodden fools still think the union is for them and not for the onion man.
The people like Scargill, and Red Ken ( Commy Thatchers man ) are the reason we aren’t competitive in the world market today, they ruined our chances in the world market so we only have a service industry today.
I do love the way you are slowly picking holes in all your own arguments.
Do you even like the unions really?
Bob, I don’t know wether or not you would class my union as militant or not, anyway its the TGWU (NOW KNOWN AS UNITE).
And whilst you may be correct in saying that lots of workers are worse off because of union actions throughout the 60’s/70’s, my belief is that there would be a lot more worse off if there had not been any unions and bosses had been given free rein.
FINALLY, at my age you’re not going to change my mind, I have seen and experienced too much that you have only read about 
this is where I would in the past have said " come back when the ink on your licence is dry" or " done more miles in reverse than you have forward"
only in fun Bob
Carryfast:
If that does’nt prove my case that Thatcher was a Commiewhat does.
Says it all really 
Not wanting to stir the pot, but…
I think a lot of anti union bias coming from many of us is due to the militant factor in the unions, we all concentrate on the negatives, most of which we’ve read about in the red top rags we read, we’re all right wingers, so we read right wing papers, they’re anti union, full stop. However, the unions are not all about going on strike and crippling free enterprise, they do a lot of good, which we don’t hear about, because good news doesn’t sell papers 
Without the unions we would all be working under harsher conditions, sure they’ve made some mistakes along the way and to raise the miner’s strike again, that was not purely the fault of the union, that was a ■■■■■■■ contest between Thatcher and Scargill, in the end neither of them remembered what they were fighting for, they just wanted to win at all costs, to the detriment of everyone else involved, the same is true for Red Robbo and the car factories, they pushed things too far and ultimately lost, from looking at this I believe that unions are no good for me, the career union leaders and politicians are too busy trying to win points off each other to do the jobs that they’re supposed to do
newmercman:
Not wanting to stir the pot, but…I think a lot of anti union bias coming from many of us is due to the militant factor in the unions, we all concentrate on the negatives, most of which we’ve read about in the red top rags we read, we’re all right wingers, so we read right wing papers, they’re anti union, full stop. However, the unions are not all about going on strike and crippling free enterprise, they do a lot of good, which we don’t hear about, because good news doesn’t sell papers
Without the unions we would all be working under harsher conditions, sure they’ve made some mistakes along the way and to raise the miner’s strike again, that was not purely the fault of the union, that was a ■■■■■■■ contest between Thatcher and Scargill, in the end neither of them remembered what they were fighting for, they just wanted to win at all costs, to the detriment of everyone else involved, the same is true for Red Robbo and the car factories, they pushed things too far and ultimately lost, from looking at this I believe that unions are no good for me, the career union leaders and politicians are too busy trying to win points off each other to do the jobs that they’re supposed to do
The trouble is, for all the good the unions may have done for the working man, these two destroyed two of the biggest industries through their union activities and that undoes all of the good that unions may have done before. What happened to the Mining and car manufacturing also happened to the ship builders as well. How many thousands of jobs have the unions destroyed in their quest for power over the government?
I’m thinking a SATNAV is needed, for the tangents and countries used in your waffle Carryfast!!!
Paraghraphs of dads army rhetoric, racist remarks and verbal diarrhoea all with no substance to the original thread, no wonder you are now earning the mark of a troll.
jimti:
newmercman:
Not wanting to stir the pot, but…I think a lot of anti union bias coming from many of us is due to the militant factor in the unions, we all concentrate on the negatives, most of which we’ve read about in the red top rags we read, we’re all right wingers, so we read right wing papers, they’re anti union, full stop. However, the unions are not all about going on strike and crippling free enterprise, they do a lot of good, which we don’t hear about, because good news doesn’t sell papers
Without the unions we would all be working under harsher conditions, sure they’ve made some mistakes along the way and to raise the miner’s strike again, that was not purely the fault of the union, that was a ■■■■■■■ contest between Thatcher and Scargill, in the end neither of them remembered what they were fighting for, they just wanted to win at all costs, to the detriment of everyone else involved, the same is true for Red Robbo and the car factories, they pushed things too far and ultimately lost, from looking at this I believe that unions are no good for me, the career union leaders and politicians are too busy trying to win points off each other to do the jobs that they’re supposed to do
The trouble is, for all the good the unions may have done for the working man, these two destroyed two of the biggest industries through their union activities and that undoes all of the good that unions may have done before. What happened to the Mining and car manufacturing also happened to the ship builders as well. How many thousands of jobs have the unions destroyed in their quest for power over the government?
I said on one of my original responses to this topic that I’m not a union man at all, I think the actual words I used were ‘you can poke unions up your arse’
I’d like to see a drivers union that offered insurance for loss of earning through sickness or accidents and help with retraining drivers who lose the licence through ill health etc. And who fight causes that matter to todays drivers such as lack of facilities on the road.
All the unions of today seem to want is to cause trouble to get labour back in to power and the leaders make me sick talking about the plight of low pay against the fat cat conservatives etc when they earn more than the prime minister.
There’s a few drivers where I work making noises about getting the union involved about asking for a pay rise. I’ve argued with them saying have you not got the balls to ask your self and in my opinion its not the time to ask as we are quiet and from talking to people on other firms in skip hire round our way we are at the higher end of the pay scale and although I’m no big fan of the management they are pretty fair people to work for compared to some firms in this game.
kr79:
I’d like to see a drivers union that offered insurance for loss of earning through sickness or accidents and help with retraining drivers who lose the licence through ill health etc. And who fight causes that matter to todays drivers such as lack of facilities on the road.
All the unions of today seem to want is to cause trouble to get labour back in to power and the leaders make me sick talking about the plight of low pay against the fat cat conservatives etc when they earn more than the prime minister.
There’s a few drivers where I work making noises about getting the union involved about asking for a pay rise. I’ve argued with them saying have you not got the balls to ask your self and in my opinion its not the time to ask as we are quiet and from talking to people on other firms in skip hire round our way we are at the higher end of the pay scale and although I’m no big fan of the management they are pretty fair people to work for compared to some firms in this game.
Kevin, this post completely sums up the union mentality, times are hard, taxes are rising to try to repair the damage of the carefree spending from the Labour Years, instead of people accepting that the country is in a crap state and knuckling down and tightening their belts a little, they just want more money so they can carry on as before, unions preach solidarity, all for one and one for all, well where’s the solidarity in asking for more money when things get a bit tight? ■■■■ everyone else, I’m alright Jack is the message that is sending and it’s loud and clear 
Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying everyone should starve, but asking for more money because things are getting expensive is very mercenary, work itself by definition is mercenary, but how about asking for more money and offering to be more productive in return? Wouldn’t that show more solidarity?
newmercman:
kr79:
I’d like to see a drivers union that offered insurance for loss of earning through sickness or accidents and help with retraining drivers who lose the licence through ill health etc. And who fight causes that matter to todays drivers such as lack of facilities on the road.
All the unions of today seem to want is to cause trouble to get labour back in to power and the leaders make me sick talking about the plight of low pay against the fat cat conservatives etc when they earn more than the prime minister.
There’s a few drivers where I work making noises about getting the union involved about asking for a pay rise. I’ve argued with them saying have you not got the balls to ask your self and in my opinion its not the time to ask as we are quiet and from talking to people on other firms in skip hire round our way we are at the higher end of the pay scale and although I’m no big fan of the management they are pretty fair people to work for compared to some firms in this game.Kevin, this post completely sums up the union mentality, times are hard, taxes are rising to try to repair the damage of the carefree spending from the Labour Years, instead of people accepting that the country is in a crap state and knuckling down and tightening their belts a little, they just want more money so they can carry on as before, unions preach solidarity, all for one and one for all, well where’s the solidarity in asking for more money when things get a bit tight? [zb] everyone else, I’m alright Jack is the message that is sending and it’s loud and clear
Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying everyone should starve, but asking for more money because things are getting expensive is very mercenary, work itself by definition is mercenary, but how about asking for more money and offering to be more productive in return? Wouldn’t that show more solidarity?
That’s exactly the type of misguided idea that both the Labour Party and the Tory party have been trying to make work since the 1970’s.The only difference between the two parties was that the Labour lot knew that just taking the axe to every sector of the economy’s workers who did’nt agree would just make matters even worse than just expecting them to accept wage rises that were below the real rate of general price increases in the economy.That’s why we’ve got what was once an industrial economy that’s just trying to survive on services instead of large scale manufacturing industry.That’s the reason for the deficit issues that we’ve got so you’re trying to cure the symptoms of the problem not the cause.
How long will it take for everyone to realise that the type of subsistence wage rates that you’re advocating won’t be enough to provide the required liquidity in the economy to run an advanced civilised type of economy that we need to remain an advanced civilised country.
But the only way to increase productivety in the haulage industry is by increasing the tonne/miles capacity of the operation,which,in relation to local work,using relatively low weight capacity trucks,is’nt viable.Which is why we don’t see local skip or tipper operators using 44 tonne drawbar outfits.However that idea does seem more logical in the case of long distance work.Which is why I’ve been saying let’s drive 65 tonners at American type speeds working for east european wages .But every one,including you,said that I’m nuts for even thinking of the idea and they’d be right.
Unless,that is,we get the required gross weight increases and the other prices in the economy in general come down to match,including the bankers and hospital surgeons wages so the drivers don’t go broke and end up with their families living in a cardboard box,or lost because of lack of health care,because those wages won’t pay for the the mortgage or decent surgery/health care when it’s needed. 
It’s called deflation and that’s the only way that the economy will survive in the long term.
What are you talking about in general many things now cost much less than they did in the past as a percentage of earnings for instance i was talking to my mum about when my she bought our first video recorder around 1983 it cost £400 which would be probbaly be about three weeks wages back then now you can buy a dvd player for about £30 which is not even 10% of the avarage weekly wage the big killer for people these days is the cost of housing which become a problem under the labour government.
Admitedly we have run down our manafacturing and heavy industury which in my opinion was a mistake as i belive you need a good mix to make a strong economy like germany which still has strugled over the past few years.
But if you look at the some of the crap we were making its wasnt all mrs thatchers fault we lost our car and coal industry etc.
You know something, I think curryfart just copies and pastes his osts… FFS, he is turning it to ■■■■■■■ drawbars on here…
Curry, go peddle your papers at the dole office or wherever it is you spend your days. You repeat yourself more than channel 4.
You are a troll, aren’t you… Just piping up like a little steam engine, and belching just as much hot ■■■■■■■ air.
Del, I used a hairdryer on the licence to dry it out.
kr79:
What are you talking about in general many things now cost much less than they did in the past as a percentage of earnings for instance i was talking to my mum about when my she bought our first video recorder around 1983 it cost £400 which would be probbaly be about three weeks wages back then now you can buy a dvd player for about £30 which is not even 10% of the avarage weekly wage the big killer for people these days is the cost of housing which become a problem under the labour government.
Admitedly we have run down our manafacturing and heavy industury which in my opinion was a mistake as i belive you need a good mix to make a strong economy like germany which still has strugled over the past few years.
But if you look at the some of the crap we were making its wasnt all mrs thatchers fault we lost our car and coal industry etc.
You need to read all the rest of the topic to understand all the issues.It’s precisely because products like that video recorder is so cheap that we’ve lost our domestic industries.For us to make it here we’d need wages and expectations in living standards the same as those where it’s produced which means,everything being relative,that your wages would also have to come down to Chinese truck driver levels and our general standards in health care etc etc would need to match .However if you look at the good stuff that we’ve always made like that V12 E Type or XJ versus a 3.0 Litre BMW and the reasons for the miners strikes it was’nt all Thatcher’s fault because Wilson and Callaghan are just as much to blame,if not moreso.
The cost of housing has absolutely nothing to do with a Labour government that’s all down to the relationship between prices and incomes in the economy in general and all the parties have the same flawed idea that we can build our way out of the problem when anyone with any sense knows that Cities are the most expensive but overdeveloped crap places to live in and which is why we’ve always had a high demand for housing in Surrey,while at the same time trying to stop the government,both Labour and Tory,from building what remains of the place into even greater London.The fact is it’s better to have just high housing costs than it is to have both high housing costs and crap living conditions.Cheap housing is another one of those issues where the guvnors want to have their wage costs subsidised by the aceptance of lower living standards.Having said all that the housing demands would be a lot less if we were’nt allowing so much immigration which is just another form of cheap labour supported by all parties except probably one.The fact is that the German workers did much better by losing the war than their British counterparts did by winning it.
bobthedog:
You know something, I think curryfart just copies and pastes his osts… FFS, he is turning it to [zb] drawbars on here…Curry, go peddle your papers at the dole office or wherever it is you spend your days. You repeat yourself more than channel 4.
You are a troll, aren’t you… Just piping up like a little steam engine, and belching just as much hot [zb] air.
Del, I used a hairdryer on the licence to dry it out.
It’s newmercman who raised the issue of productivety not me but a 65 tonner would be a lot more productive than what we’re using now and if anyone prefers a b train they will be optional for all those who prefer them instead.
And you still seem to labour under the impression that we would all be better off if we had to scrimp and save every penny for months just to have a TV in the house. So who is the commie? After all, the Altes DDR used to have to wait for years to get a family car, and that seems to be what you want.
Personally, I would think it better that we have some reward for what we do. You clearly think we should all wait and buy british even though the british manufacturers would be using chinese components.
More to the point, the thread was created to ask if you would cross a picket line. So would you, curry? Or would you think that, regardless of the grievance, the pickets have to be right because they are standing up to a communist (and fascist according to you), chinese speaking vietnamese who lives in the USA and banks in the Caymans and probably is a french lover and has a german mistress, and who, obviously, is out to destroy the workers in the UK?
You aren’t even funny anymore. You are like the tired old comedian on TV who hasn’t written a new joke in 30 years.
Why bring Bruce Forsyth into this?
You may be closer to the truth than you think, Del. There is certainly something equally pathetic about what curry has to say…
nice to talk ■■■, to talk ■■■ nice