Scabs

[del949]

Bob, I can’t come up with an argument that unions are great.
Nowhere in any post have I claimed anything like that.
I simply dispute the claims that unions are to blame for everything that has happened to British industries.
Governments and management shoulder almost as much, if not more, blame for some of these declines.
Thatcher, in her mission to destroy the power of the unions, was content to destroy the industries in which they were strong in an attempt to make sure never agin had power, a bit like throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Industries like engineering in which Britain was still a major force but was uncompetitive, so whilst other countries supported their own industries Britain decided to make our industry stand on its own feet and compete in a world market without government support.
Whilst other countries imposed “back door” import restrictions, we allowed unrestricted access to anyone who wanted to export to us.
There are lots of examples in my personal experience where unions have helped individuals and small groups, not so much on a national scale so they would not amount to much in your arguments. But this happens hundreds of times to hundreds of workers every week, and this is where the strength of the unions lie nowadays.
It has been a national sport with the media over the last few decades to blame everything that is wrong with the country on the workers and the unions, but it’s strange to see how the legacy of Thatchers Britain, financial services and banking, is actually the one that brought us to the present state.
No, you will never hear me defend the unions at all costs, but I believe in apportioning the blame in context.

Finally, your suggestion that drivers and operators stand together and campaign is fine by me, but is that not simply a “union” itself ?

[bobthedog]

In a sense, perhaps, it would be, but it would not be in the “shop stewards drinking whiskey and scabbing money from members” type of thing.

In fairness, the industrial disputes of the early 805 were simply because the country was right up ■■■■ creek without the paddle and radical things needed to be done in order to pull things up again, and the unions didn’t like it. The difference was that Maggie didn’t give a toss about the unions barking, and just carried on. If you are honest, things were better by about 86 than they had been in a long time, unless you were YTS like me.

But it would not have mattered what colour tie the party in government wore, the industries could not have survived as they were and would have had to change. All the strikes did was to make the change an ending instead of a new direction.

As for the inport restrictions, or lack of them, well that is called protectionism and is, technically speaking, illegal in most ways. The difference between the UK and other member states of the EU is that the UK actually followed the rules more closely than the rest. But looking at things now, I don’t think it made any difference. The Greeks are so deep in a hole and they are still protectionist as hell.

And the very worst culprits are the USA and they are a major part of the reason you are paying a quid and a quarter or more for a litre of fuel. Their dollar is devalued to try to thwart China, but it is killing everyone. That is not the EUs fault, although the US are seriously troubled by the expansion of the EU as it means there are more people there than within the US.

Anyway, I digress. Unions cause problems with their militancy. I will cross pickets because I disagree with their methods and their bluster and threats. I think the death of David Wilkie during the miners strike shows how bad they had become.

therefore, I am a Scab and will always be one… Is the subject closed yet?

[del949]

Must be, neither of us are going to change our beliefs

[bobthedog]

You mean we are agreeing on something■■?

Even if only that we disagree…

[del949]

yep Bob, thats about it

[spacemonkeypg]

London tube drivers

£40k starting salary 38 days annual leave, free public transport.

Union strikes left right and centre on specific strategic days i think the last one was boxing day?? Current news states that they are planning yet another strike on the new royal wedding day.

Why? for triple pay and a day back if they work on a bank holiday.

So is that a union looking after their members or a union taking the p155? I would say the latter by a long shot, who the hell in their right mind thinks that they should be entitled to such demands when their current salary is way and beyond the general average of many workers.

The only Scabs i can think of are the unions and unionistic people they groom. They are a Scab to every honest, loyal and hard worker in the UK - dare i say our eastern european friends dont need or use them - nor will the turks when they enter the EU either.

[alexsaville]

My wife worked with Safeway at our local store, Morrisons bought them over but did not want the middlesize stores. Sold them to Somerfield’s who cut the LOYAL workforces wages and condition’s.
The Co-op took over Somerfield, for two years the LOYAL workforce were told they would be upgraded to Co-op wages and their store would be renovated (Never happened!).
Weeks before last Christmas, the LOYAL workforce were told the Co-op had sold them to B & M stores.
FIVE employers for the LOYAL workforce in five years. This HONEST, LOYAL and HARD WORKING WORKFORCE have been S*** upon from a great height by these FIVE employers.
The Co-op is closing their depots at ■■■■■■■■■■■ & Harthill, here in the Central belt of Scotland.
They have offered the staff jobs at 15% to 25% at the new depot at Newhouse, doing the same job. The staff at the two depots were HONEST,LOYAL and HARDWORKING also.
Both these examples are of how a HONEST, LOYAL and HARDWORKING workforce can be treated nowadays.
Now, if they stuck together like the tube staff, and had a decent union instead of USDAW, would the employers get away with what they have done?
Would some of those who have participated in this subject of ‘Scabs’ tell them they are bloody lucky to have a job and if they dont like they should move on?
Once again, I ask, how are working people to improve their wages and conditions nowaday’s?
Should we all take the view advocated by some here that we should stick two fingers up at other working people who do stand up for themselves?
Why is it (in the case of lorry drivers on Trucknet) that they villify tanker drivers, Tesco drivers, and other workers (Like the BA staff & Tube workers) who earn far more than the castigators for far less working hours?
Shouldn’t we aspire to better wages & conditions?
Or should we go back to the 19th Century and raise a knuckle when the boss passes and thank him/her for treating us to long hours, no payment for parking, and 80 odd hours a week?

Alex

[big_jon_s_dad]

Yeah, I’ll say they are lucky to have jobs. If you don’t like your job or the conditions, tough, look for a better job, or get an education and improve your qualifications, perhaps by studying at home with the Open Uni. What stops all you whiners from starting your own businesses? You all seem to think you know how every other business should be run. Get together with a few like minded people and start your own Co-op. The Co-op don’t have a monopoly on running businesses that are owned by the workers. Frightened to take the risk? Every business owner has to take risks, if they didn’t there would be no jobs for all you union lovers that won’t work for yourselves.

[spacemonkeypg]

alexsaville:
My wife worked with Safeway at our local store, Morrisons bought them over but did not want the middlesize stores. Sold them to Somerfield’s who cut the LOYAL workforces wages and condition’s.
The Co-op took over Somerfield, for two years the LOYAL workforce were told they would be upgraded to Co-op wages and their store would be renovated (Never happened!).
Weeks before last Christmas, the LOYAL workforce were told the Co-op had sold them to B & M stores.
FIVE employers for the LOYAL workforce in five years. This HONEST, LOYAL and HARD WORKING WORKFORCE have been S*** upon from a great height by these FIVE employers.
The Co-op is closing their depots at ■■■■■■■■■■■ & Harthill, here in the Central belt of Scotland.
They have offered the staff jobs at 15% to 25% at the new depot at Newhouse, doing the same job. The staff at the two depots were HONEST,LOYAL and HARDWORKING also.
Both these examples are of how a HONEST, LOYAL and HARDWORKING workforce can be treated nowadays.
Now, if they stuck together like the tube staff, and had a decent union instead of USDAW, would the employers get away with what they have done?
Would some of those who have participated in this subject of ‘Scabs’ tell them they are bloody lucky to have a job and if they dont like they should move on?
Once again, I ask, how are working people to improve their wages and conditions nowaday’s?
Should we all take the view advocated by some here that we should stick two fingers up at other working people who do stand up for themselves?
Why is it (in the case of lorry drivers on Trucknet) that they villify tanker drivers, Tesco drivers, and other workers (Like the BA staff & Tube workers) who earn far more than the castigators for far less working hours?
Shouldn’t we aspire to better wages & conditions?
Or should we go back to the 19th Century and raise a knuckle when the boss passes and thank him/her for treating us to long hours, no payment for parking, and 80 odd hours a week?

Alex

So in essence the Union representing your wife and her loyal co workers was useless? and a waste of time. Therefore underlining the fact that many are trying to make on here.

[del949]

My wife worked with Safeway at our local store, Morrisons bought them over but did not want the middlesize stores. Sold them to Somerfield’s who cut the LOYAL workforces wages and condition’s.

I think that there must be more to this than said here as they would have been protected by TUPE regulations.

Anyone who has had dealings with USDAW would know that the initials are an acronym for Useless Seven Days A Week.

[alexsaville]

Perhaps our Canadian friend(?) could conduct himself in a courteous manner? It’s not polite to refer to people who put forward a different point of view as ‘Union lovers’ or ‘Whiners’ even if that’s what you think.
At this point I wonder if there are any Moderators on this site, if so, why is this conduct permitted? Or dont you want courteous and polite debate?
As for changing jobs. In this part of the world those are few and far between. No doubt many of these Ladies with their long & LOYAL service are wary of looking elsewhere.
As for USDAW, yes, they are a waste of space.
Thats the fault of the members, perhaps. If they attended meetings and pushed for reform or voted in the ballot papers sent to them, things might improve.
However, nowadays many people take a selfish solitary individual outlook towards other working people. They take the view that ‘I’m all right, Jack’, and to hell with everyone else.
Thats a shame.
As to TUPE, yes, they were TUPE’d, and that was not worth the paper it was written on.
The employer’s merely mention ‘The needs of the business’ and that is that.
As to Unions in general.
Nowadays, mostly, they are more interested in playing politic’s. Thats the members fault, they allow that to happen.
It has to be said however, we would not have such things as a N.H.S. if it wasn’t for the unions.
There would be no Maternity pay, or leave.
No Industrial Tribunals, no redundancy entitlement.
Finally, I’ll point out it was those with an entrepreneurial streak (The Bankers and associated hangers on) who have landed the economy in a mess.
Not the unions or the working folks.
Alex
OH, one other point! Thats my name on the left, I dont hide behind a non-de-plume, like some.
I have the courage of my convictions.
Lastly, I’m always polite. Manners maketh the man!

[carryfast]

alexsaville:
Perhaps our Canadian friend(?) could conduct himself in a courteous manner? It’s not polite to refer to people who put forward a different point of view as ‘Union lovers’ or ‘Whiners’ even if that’s what you think.
At this point I wonder if there are any Moderators on this site, if so, why is this conduct permitted? Or dont you want courteous and polite debate?
As for changing jobs. In this part of the world those are few and far between. No doubt many of these Ladies with their long & LOYAL service are wary of looking elsewhere.
As for USDAW, yes, they are a waste of space.
Thats the fault of the members, perhaps. If they attended meetings and pushed for reform or voted in the ballot papers sent to them, things might improve.
However, nowadays many people take a selfish solitary individual outlook towards other working people. They take the view that ‘I’m all right, Jack’, and to hell with everyone else.
Thats a shame.
As to TUPE, yes, they were TUPE’d, and that was not worth the paper it was written on.
The employer’s merely mention ‘The needs of the business’ and that is that.
As to Unions in general.
Nowadays, mostly, they are more interested in playing politic’s. Thats the members fault, they allow that to happen.
It has to be said however, we would not have such things as a N.H.S. if it wasn’t for the unions.
There would be no Maternity pay, or leave.
No Industrial Tribunals, no redundancy entitlement.
Finally, I’ll point out it was those with an entrepreneurial streak (The Bankers and associated hangers on) who have landed the economy in a mess.
Not the unions or the working folks.

^ + 1 Although having said that it’s always going to be a self preservation society at the end of the day.

[big_jon_s_dad]

alexsaville:
Perhaps our Canadian friend(?) could conduct himself in a courteous manner? It’s not polite to refer to people who put forward a different point of view as ‘Union lovers’ or ‘Whiners’ even if that’s what you think.
At this point I wonder if there are any Moderators on this site, if so, why is this conduct permitted? Or dont you want courteous and polite debate?
As for changing jobs. In this part of the world those are few and far between. No doubt many of these Ladies with their long & LOYAL service are wary of looking elsewhere.
As for USDAW, yes, they are a waste of space.
Thats the fault of the members, perhaps. If they attended meetings and pushed for reform or voted in the ballot papers sent to them, things might improve.
However, nowadays many people take a selfish solitary individual outlook towards other working people. They take the view that ‘I’m all right, Jack’, and to hell with everyone else.
Thats a shame.
As to TUPE, yes, they were TUPE’d, and that was not worth the paper it was written on.
The employer’s merely mention ‘The needs of the business’ and that is that.
As to Unions in general.
Nowadays, mostly, they are more interested in playing politic’s. Thats the members fault, they allow that to happen.
It has to be said however, we would not have such things as a N.H.S. if it wasn’t for the unions.
There would be no Maternity pay, or leave.
No Industrial Tribunals, no redundancy entitlement.
Finally, I’ll point out it was those with an entrepreneurial streak (The Bankers and associated hangers on) who have landed the economy in a mess.
Not the unions or the working folks.
Alex
OH, one other point! Thats my name on the left, I dont hide behind a non-de-plume, like some.
I have the courage of my convictions.
Lastly, I’m always polite. Manners maketh the man!

Funny how it is OK to call people scabs but not whiners and union lovers, Eh?

Right, this is a cut and paste from your post: Would some of those who have participated in this subject of ‘Scabs’ tell them they are bloody lucky to have a job and if they dont like they should move on?

I gave you your answer & gave my honest opinion, and I still think you are whining. I refer to union lovers and whiners as union lovers and whiners, not everybody I disagree with.
If you didn’t want an answer, why did you pose the question?

I am Big Jon’s Dad, I am David and I have a website which you can visit to see who I am and what my business is. I am hardly hiding am I? Edit: I changed my mind, now I’m hiding.

Lastly, if managers are not allowed to manage, their businesses close and you lose your jobs, so don’t interfere unless you want businesses to fold. If you want to decide how a business should be run, become a manager or start your own business. There would be no economy without entrepreneurs.

[carryfast]

Big Jon’s dad:
If you want to decide how a business should be run, become a manager or start your own business. There would be no economy without entrepreneurs.

If we took that to it’s logical conclusion in this industry then there would’nt be any employed drivers at all.Every driver would be an owner driver and have to start up from day 1 with sufficient capital to get the firm on it’s feet.

At best it would probably turn out to be a better way of working for all concerned and would actuallly show up the levels of exploitation which the labour market imposes on it’s employees when the economy gets landed with the full cost of everyone’s labour when they’ve got the freedom to set their own rates.

At worst the whole industry could collapse in a heap of insolvent bankrupt small businesses because of the levels of competition and in that context have you thought through what might happen in whatever trade that you’re in yourself if everyone involved it,including those presently employed in it by some of your competitors,suddenly all,seperately,became yours and each other’s competitors overnight.

[bobthedog]

If they did not sell the smaller stores then I would imagine the sale of the business would not have gone through. Maybe they would all have lost their jobs if the business had been left alone and then even more would be out of work.

With the present climate, what would a union do other than to force even more to close by demanding ridiculous things that the company cannot sustain without increasing prices and probably losing business…

You have a go at people like me for “castigating” people that strike, but I bet you wouldn’t fly BA because they are too expensive… I reckon you are a ryanair customer all the way, carrying your sandwiches with you…

You have a go at Jons Dad because he dares to say, as a businessman, that unions are not a good thing… Well, personally, as a former businessman, I think that unions ■■■■ the big one, and that people who are so rabidly in favour of unions are slack ■■■■■■■■ who want everything handed to them on a plate.

[big_jon_s_dad]

No-one has said anything about everybody becoming self employed. Many people don’t have the personal drive to achieve that. What was said was to either let people who know how to run a business do so without interference, or if you want to run a business because you think you know better than the people already doing so, become a manager or start your own business.
Jobs are created by businesses. Businesses are started by people who are willing to take risks with their own futures to establish those businesses. Without businesses there would be no jobs except government jobs. Where do the funds come from to provide government jobs? Taxes. Taxes on businesses, taxes on jobs, taxes on workers in jobs. Taxes on the spending of wages earned in those jobs. Without businesses there would be no economy to tax.

As for competitors, I no longer have any. My trade is dying out as my customers get older. Younger customers don’t need my services and won’t need it when they get older. I have more work than I can do as my competitors have retired and their customers have come to me. I have enough work to keep me going into my own retirement and a bit longer if I wish to continue beyond then.

But Carryfast, I think telling you any of this is a waste of time as you will swear black is a simply a very dark shade of white.

[carryfast]

Big Jon’s dad:
No-one has said anything about everybody becoming self employed. Many people don’t have the personal drive to achieve that. What was said was to either let people who know how to run a business do so without interference, or if you want to run a business because you think you know better than the people already doing so, become a manager or start your own business.
Jobs are created by businesses. Businesses are started by people who are willing to take risks with their own futures to establish those businesses.

As for competitors, I no longer have any. My trade is dying out as my customers get older. Younger customers don’t need my services and won’t need it when they get older. I have more work than I can do as my competitors have retired and their customers have come to me. I have enough work to keep me going into my own retirement and a bit longer if I wish to continue beyond then.

But Carryfast, I think telling you any of this is a waste of time as you will swear black is a simply a very dark shade of white.

I’m not going to swear that black is a dark shade of grey but our two outlooks just seem to show the differences between one based on knowing the harsh realities of the British Road Transport Industry,which are’nt that different to most other types of industry,and one based on being in an industry,which you say,means having more work than you can do as your competitors have retired and their customers have come to you.You also say that you have enough work to keep going into your retirement and a bit longer if you wish to continue beyond then.

So in reality it all comes down to what I said.It’s a self preservation society.If an employee does’nt like the income level being paid,or the conditions, then walk away and start up working for themselves.

So why don’t the unions just give up and instruct their members that instead of striking just tell the guvnor that you’ll be back when the ex employer,now prospective customer,gives you exactly what you want for the services on offer as a sub contractor.Now the employee has changed overnight from being a militant union member to a sub contractor setting the rate for the job in a free labour market just like the electric and gas companies do when they put up their prices to the customer by around 10% and bankers do by setting their bonuses while employees wages are stuck at around 3% if they’re lucky.

[spacemonkeypg]

Sorry but your point is lost on me there!?!

[carryfast]

Spacemonkeypg:
Sorry but your point is lost on me there!?!

Don’t know if you meant my point or not.But if it’s mine what I’m saying is that maybe it’s time for the unions to just give up on the idea and let the whole economy sink or swim based on the idea of a free labour market in which everyone works self employed as a sub contractor.

But those who seem to be so against unions seem to be forgetting how strong that the American economy was in the 1950’s and 1960’s based on unionised factories turning out most of the country’s goods in a relatively high wage low cost economy.

[spacemonkeypg]

While i am only 31 and of no political direction my knowledge of the unions and there movement are not of the positive side at all.

10 people died in the miners strike causing the three day week, where unions and their members attempted to bring down the society of the UK and failed. There are positive and negative points and reasons over the miners and their strike i am sure. But for example the taxi driver who was killed taking a miner to work and the teenagers attempting to get coal.

Then their is the BA strike, i can imagine the low cost airline staff dreaming of the T&C’s BA staff get in their contract in stark comparison to their terms of employment. Not only that the action deliberate in its timing to cause distress and hardship for members of the general public.

Post Office if the wind blows the wrong way then they throw out ballot papers left right and centre - more interestingly is the partisan strike action taken by each individual depot.

Tube drivers, in this instance its just pure lunacy. £40k starting salary YES starting salary plus 40 days holiday plus free TFL transport. The latest strike is to get TRIPLE pay plus a day in leu if they work a bank holiday.

The four most common factors with these is they are all former public or still are public sector workers. Who seem to think they have to automatic right to work in a non-profitable fashion and the general ideology of work as little for as much as i can. Wastage of any form is nearly encouraged and service levels take a second nature to workers over rights.

Maternity midwives, nurses, doctors, police, private sector workers (majority), health care workers and soldiers have terms and conditions of their employment which in comparison to the above are/where a dam heck worse. But they are not militant in their attitudes they are not consistent moaners they do the work they are employed to do.

A family two doors down the road from me don’t work. They claim what ever form of benefit they can. The man, i have been informed by his partner jumps from JSA to DLA depending on the nature and the closeness of the social security worker into investigating his claim. If he has been unemployed for a certain period of time he moves to DLA under stress of what ever he can pull out of the hat. Then moves back to JSA wiping his time served on JSA thus avoiding the forced work/education placed on claimants. This said fellow apart from having sky tv, sky sports, all the matching sports clothing, working at the furniture removal shop at the top of the road and smoking pot is considered to be on the bread line. He see’s his benefits as his RIGHT in society and considers his benefit payment as a pay day when it comes through. Many normal people would see this person as bleeding UK system dry.

This mentality is the same for unions and union workers. The only difference is that they bleed/ attempt to bleed companies and or UK departments dry. With the miss belief they are entitled to a hell of a lot more than the man on the front line dodging IED’s and bullets putting something back into the UK rather than attempting to take it out.

I would love to place a striking tube driver in front of this man thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne … ?offset=10 and watch him try to explain why he deserves to strike for MORE money.

Then once he has explained his actions i think i would like to introduce him to this fellow telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ … mbers.html and again ask him to explain not only why he gets the right for more but also a right to a pay rise while others are tightening their belts.

As i have said i’m 31 and i have worked since the age of 11 non stop. I can honestly say that all i have ever seen in todays society is take take take. At the forefront of this trend is benefit claimants and unions i am afraid.