Scabs

[wheel_nut]

Carryfast:
The SD1 was actually another zb up by British management not the workers who built them considering the retrograde heap that it was compared to what the 2.5 PI could have been if it had been fitted with a decent V8 motor instead of bothering with that hopeless Rover.Although having said that the SD1 was actually a better car that that oriental front wheel drive heap the 75 as proved by TWR who used it to beat the BMW’s in racing just like the Jaguar XJS did.

But obviously there’s plenty of people who agree with me and who don’t believe all the bs concerning decent American and British cars being overpriced compared to the Jap zb products made in the same era or now and they’ve probably got the intelligence to understand the difference between value for money and just paying too much for a cheap product with a expensive badge on it and the reason why those cars are valued so highly now is because they were,and still are,great products.Having said all that if fuel prices/taxes here were brought down to even what they’re paying now in the US,let alone the late 1960’s early 1970’s,then the fuel consumption issue would become far less of a priority and if prices in general had stayed the same as they were in the late 1960’s then British and American workers and products would still have been as competitive as they were then.Because as I’ve said previously wage levels have to reflect prices unless you want living standards to spiral downwards to the lowest common denominator.

By the way there’s never been an American truck that won the Paris-Dakar but Perlini won it enough times using American engines not Russian or Japanese ones.

The SD1 was a failure for other reasons, but not caused by the GM designed Buick V8 that Rover developed and made stronger and more reliable. That Rover V8 was also successful in a Triumph TR8 with Tony Pond at the wheel. Andy Dawson had a fair crack with them too. The Dolomite Sprint lost out to the BDA and Ford launched the RS500 Cosworth to beat the SD1. The other aluminium engine was manufactured in Ryton and Linwood and fitted to the Imp, another Union ruined another great rally car.

You called the Oxford built, later Longbridge built Rover 75 oriental. It was in all but name a British BMW. The phoenix company failed and the former BL was then rescued by the Chinese.

I am not sure most Americans could even find Paris, never mind Dakar

[carryfast]

Wheel Nut:

Carryfast:
The SD1 was actually another zb up by British management not the workers who built them considering the retrograde heap that it was compared to what the 2.5 PI could have been if it had been fitted with a decent V8 motor instead of bothering with that hopeless Rover.Although having said that the SD1 was actually a better car that that oriental front wheel drive heap the 75 as proved by TWR who used it to beat the BMW’s in racing just like the Jaguar XJS did.

But obviously there’s plenty of people who agree with me and who don’t believe all the bs concerning decent American and British cars being overpriced compared to the Jap zb products made in the same era or now and they’ve probably got the intelligence to understand the difference between value for money and just paying too much for a cheap product with a expensive badge on it and the reason why those cars are valued so highly now is because they were,and still are,great products.Having said all that if fuel prices/taxes here were brought down to even what they’re paying now in the US,let alone the late 1960’s early 1970’s,then the fuel consumption issue would become far less of a priority and if prices in general had stayed the same as they were in the late 1960’s then British and American workers and products would still have been as competitive as they were then.Because as I’ve said previously wage levels have to reflect prices unless you want living standards to spiral downwards to the lowest common denominator.

By the way there’s never been an American truck that won the Paris-Dakar but Perlini won it enough times using American engines not Russian or Japanese ones.

The SD1 was a failure for other reasons, but not caused by the GM designed Buick V8 that Rover developed and made stronger and more reliable. That Rover V8 was also successful in a Triumph TR8 with Tony Pond at the wheel. Andy Dawson had a fair crack with them too. The Dolomite Sprint lost out to the BDA and Ford launched the RS500 Cosworth to beat the SD1. The other aluminium engine was manufactured in Ryton and Linwood and fitted to the Imp, another Union ruined another great rally car.

You called the Oxford built, later Longbridge built Rover 75 oriental. It was in all but name a British BMW. The phoenix company failed and the former BL was then rescued by the Chinese.

I am not sure most Americans could even find Paris, never mind Dakar

Close but not entirely accurate.The Rover V8 did in fact find it’s way into some Triumph 2.5 PI’s and Stags both as a factory trial and as home engineering projects by more than a few of their owners and was a far better option than both the 6 cylinder and 3.0 Litre V8 Triumph engine for power potential ,reliability and easy maintenance.However that does’nt mean that a injected 4 Litre 32 valve all aluminium V8 development of the Dolomite Sprint engine would’nt have been even better considering that it would have had a lot more than 300 bhp + potential if the Sprint’s output just on carbs is taken into account.But it was’nt the engine which let the SD1 down it was the rest of the thing considering that Triumph was using independent rear suspension in the 2000/2.5 since 1963 which could have then been developed to be as good as the that in the Lotus/Opel Carlton which could handle well enough at 170 mph + and the styling and build qaulity (nothing to do with the workers who put it together) was a joke.I should know because I can remember enough of us Triumph fans taking the zb out of the SD1 Rover lot in the day and the money needed to make the Rover V8 engine powerful enough to take on the yank muscle car lot was better spent on putting a 5 speed manual box and a bigger engine into a V12 Jaguar,which is what I did as soon as I could afford it.

But think you’ll find that the Rover 75 has it’s origins in Honda not BMW just like all the other post SD1 zb they turned out with the exception of that Mustang engined job and TWR sorted out the competition far more conviningly with the XJS than they would have done with a Dagenham Dustbin Cossie which is why a genuine racing TWR XJS is worth a lot more now than an RS 500.

But Perlini’s record in the Paris Dakar using the Detroit and the Camaro’s record in racing here (James Hunt amongst others) and knowing the expense and aggro required to build something which can beat a simple pushrod all iron yank powered car (AC Cobra versus Ferrari) shows that the yanks knew exactly where they were going and everyone else was just trying to catch them.

[del949]

Is anyone keeping score?

[wheel_nut]

Carryfast:
But think you’ll find that the Rover 75 has it’s origins in Honda not BMW just like all the other post SD1 zb they turned out with the exception of that Mustang engined job and TWR sorted out the competition far more conviningly with the XJS than they would have done with a Dagenham Dustbin Cossie which is why a genuine racing TWR XJS is worth a lot more now than an RS 500.

But Perlini’s record in the Paris Dakar using the Detroit and the Camaro’s record in racing here (James Hunt amongst others) and knowing the expense and aggro required to build something which can beat a simple pushrod all iron yank powered car (AC Cobra versus Ferrari) shows that the yanks knew exactly where they were going and everyone else was just trying to catch them.

There are no Honda origins in the 75 or vice versa. It was a new build and was a superb car. The K series in 1.4 and 1.8 litres let the 75 down, but the BMW diesel and KV6 was sound.

Honda had links to the old Rover Sterling, 800/825 models then Ford took Land Rover apart. BMW took Mini and MG Rover became one again

[wheel_nut]

del949:
Is anyone keeping score?

Carryfast, probably in the margins of his Iron Muscle magazines.

The thing already established was that the Unions shut AR, BL, MGR and Standard Triumph, then along came some friendly nurses to try to revive them all, the only one who had a more threatening illness was Simca

[mickfly]

del949:
Is anyone keeping score?

It’s like reading a foreign language to me.

[carryfast]

Wheel Nut:

Carryfast:
But think you’ll find that the Rover 75 has it’s origins in Honda not BMW just like all the other post SD1 zb they turned out with the exception of that Mustang engined job and TWR sorted out the competition far more conviningly with the XJS than they would have done with a Dagenham Dustbin Cossie which is why a genuine racing TWR XJS is worth a lot more now than an RS 500.

But Perlini’s record in the Paris Dakar using the Detroit and the Camaro’s record in racing here (James Hunt amongst others) and knowing the expense and aggro required to build something which can beat a simple pushrod all iron yank powered car (AC Cobra versus Ferrari) shows that the yanks knew exactly where they were going and everyone else was just trying to catch them.

There are no Honda origins in the 75 or vice versa. It was a new build and was a superb car. The K series in 1.4 and 1.8 litres let the 75 down, but the BMW diesel and KV6 was sound.

Honda had links to the old Rover Sterling, 800/825 models then Ford took Land Rover apart. BMW took Mini and MG Rover became one again

If the 75 was a totally clean sheet build and was such a ‘superb car’ then why did Rover spend time and trouble afterwards converting the thing to rear wheel drive and putting a 4.6 Litre V8 Mustang motor in it . The sad thing is that it was all too late and too expensive considering that a much faster Vauxhall VXR8 with a 6.0 Litre+ Corvette motor in it could be bought later on for around the same money as they were trying to charge for that ZT260 when it was launched and Ozzie car workers are’nt exactly known for being paid peanuts.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nb50wA9hVs

[carryfast]

Wheel Nut:

del949:
Is anyone keeping score?

Carryfast, probably in the margins of his Iron Muscle magazines.

The thing already established was that the Unions shut AR, BL, MGR and Standard Triumph,

Blimey and I thought that it was the management’s fault in making zb front wheel drive cars (and rear drive ones like the Marina) that killed off Austin/Morris and Rover and the management’s failure to develop a decent successor to the 2.5 saloon and in making a decent Stag that killed off Triumph.But it’s nothing new for the union bashers like Thatcher to try to re write history.

[mike-c]

Slippery:

1. Unions got to big and had too much power and they were lead by un-educated morons that couldn’t rise above supervisor level, they have broken every industry they have tried to control they are dinosaurs, I worked for a short time out of the London docks the unions wrecked them with their continuous strikes and disruption even to the extent of demanding jobs for life from the PLA, it’s no wonder all the docks moved out of Liverpool and London. Now it’s the turn of British Airways to feel the grip of the unions lets hope they can come out of it without losing too much business, they should rename the “unite” union to “We’ll [zb] your job up union” You may call me a capitalist but all I wanted to do was go out and earn a good days pay for a good days work but the unions wouldn’t allow me to do that. Socialism does not work in the long term. If it was not for the unions and socialist governments Britain would still be Great and I and many other would still be living there.

The docks have never moved out of Liverpool. Infact they handle more tonnage in less area of docks due to mechanisation. The thousands of manual handling jobs in the docks where replaced with this mechanisation. The relocation of the labourers work was never addressed by any Governemt adequatley. Doesn’t sound like a socialist Government to me !!!

Slippery:
2. Cars and so called British workmanship! Austin, Morris, later BMC, Ford, Humber Hillman etc, having had most of them, all a pile of crap!!

How so? Ford still win Car of the year? Range Rover& Bently are acknowledged as premium prestige autos, what about that so called British workmanship?

Slippery:
3. Trucks Foden, Atkinson, ERF, Guy, Leyland, AEC, Dodge, Bedford etc, Having driven all of them at some time in the late 60’s and 70’s same as above all a pile of [zb], thought I died and gone to heaven when I got my first L reg Scania 80.

All bought out by foreign companies !! Still, if you can’t beat them, join them…where did you end up emigrating to?

[bobthedog]

Carryfast:
I bet that newmercman and all the other ex pats in North America are right now moaning at there guvnors about those yank wagons they’ve got and asking the guvnor to get them a zb Hino instead

Not at all, but if that was what was being bought then that is what we would drive. Just because we like our trucks does not mean they are the be all and end all…

Carryfast:
[They say over there that there’s two types of truck drivers.They either drive a KW or they want to drive one.I agree with that even for European work.But the problem seems to be that a lot of people here and in North America are forgetting that old saying you never know what you’ve got til it’s gone.That sums up the difference between 1960’s and early 1970’s America and Britain to me compared to now.

And that would be Peterbilt, not Kenworth… As for not knowing what we have till it’s gone, well no, not true either. See, the main marques of vehicles built over here now are using foreign technology to gain some economy. The days of 4mpg trucks are numbered because, compared to 10 years ago, running costs are far higher and so economy is the new god.

You do have terrible hangups about all of this, and you are entirely wrong in almost all of them. You are deluded, truly deluded. Every vehicle you mention is a muscle car or a monster truck it seems. And you are so convinced that the unions did not kill brit industry when they so obviously did.

I would ask for you to share whatever it is you are smoking, but it has to be illegal to generate dreams like yours.

[alexsaville]

I’ve read through this post with interest.
I’d like to ask a question?
May I ask everyone who thinks workers sticking together,and that unions are a waste of time, how will we improve conditions in this industry?
Please, no insults to others. Everyone should be able to discuss the subject without getting personal.
Thanks
Alex
PS
I add this merely for information. As one of the posters pointed out, there will possibly be few contributers to this subject who took part in the transport strikes of the 70’s.
I hold my hand up!
In '74 unionised drivers in the West of Scotland were on £28 for 40 hrs. After a four week strike, the wage was £40 for 40 hours.
That speaks for itself and needs no comment from me.
Yes, it was many years ago. It also cant be denied that the strike call came from the drivers and not the union. If it was left to the T & G, the outcome would definately have been different.
Maybe there is a lesson there for today. Personally, I dont care, I retire late September and it cant come quick enough for me.
Those that are left are welcome to the Road Transport Industry.
Alex

[carryfast]

bobthedog:

Carryfast:
I bet that newmercman and all the other ex pats in North America are right now moaning at there guvnors about those yank wagons they’ve got and asking the guvnor to get them a zb Hino instead

Not at all, but if that was what was being bought then that is what we would drive. Just because we like our trucks does not mean they are the be all and end all…

Carryfast:
[They say over there that there’s two types of truck drivers.They either drive a KW or they want to drive one.I agree with that even for European work.But the problem seems to be that a lot of people here and in North America are forgetting that old saying you never know what you’ve got til it’s gone.That sums up the difference between 1960’s and early 1970’s America and Britain to me compared to now.

And that would be Peterbilt, not Kenworth… As for not knowing what we have till it’s gone, well no, not true either. See, the main marques of vehicles built over here now are using foreign technology to gain some economy. The days of 4mpg trucks are numbered because, compared to 10 years ago, running costs are far higher and so economy is the new god.

You do have terrible hangups about all of this, and you are entirely wrong in almost all of them. You are deluded, truly deluded. Every vehicle you mention is a muscle car or a monster truck it seems. And you are so convinced that the unions did not kill brit industry when they so obviously did.

I would ask for you to share whatever it is you are smoking, but it has to be illegal to generate dreams like yours.

Even here,where road fuel costs are much higher than over there,it was the profits that BMW have made out of selling cars like the V8 E39 M5 (not many of those got left unsold on airfields unlike many of those economy Honda derived Rovers) that have allowed them to survive unlike Rover who put all their bets on the eco car bs.

But was’nt it Detroit Diesel who were the pioneers in making electronic engine management for big truck diesels .But just like now it was’nt the country’s workforce that zb’d the place up and just like then the government have learned nothing when it comes to understanding that if you overtax and overprice the economy relative to incomes and import manufactured goods,which you can make yourself,on a large scale,the economy will just collapse.

But many people here will find out soon enough that what I’m saying is’nt a dream it’s a fact just like 1980.

[carryfast]

alexsaville:
I’ve read through this post with interest.
I’d like to ask a question?
May I ask everyone who thinks workers sticking together,and that unions are a waste of time, how will we improve conditions in this industry?
Please, no insults to others. Everyone should be able to discuss the subject without getting personal.
Thanks
Alex
PS
I add this merely for information. As one of the posters pointed out, there will possibly be few contributers to this subject who took part in the transport strikes of the 70’s.
I hold my hand up!
In '74 unionised drivers in the West of Scotland were on £28 for 40 hrs. After a four week strike, the wage was £40 for 40 hours.
That speaks for itself and needs no comment from me.
Yes, it was many years ago. It also cant be denied that the strike call came from the drivers and not the union. If it was left to the T & G, the outcome would definately have been different.
Maybe there is a lesson there for today. Personally, I dont care, I retire late September and it cant come quick enough for me.
Those that are left are welcome to the Road Transport Industry.
Alex

It was’nt just drivers who were involved in wage disputes during the 1970’s. But those wage demands were driven by the general massive price rises which came first.It’s not a simple issue of striking and getting more wages.The issue is one of getting a decent balance in the economy between incomes and prices.The problem here has always been that the government has the distorted idea that you can run an economy with lower wages relative to prices and taxes.

[big_jon_s_dad]

Don’t you just hate it when you spent ages typing out a reply and the ■■■■ computer decides to erase it all for you. ■■■■ it, I can’t be arsed to type it out again tonight, maybe tomorow if I feel inclined. ■■■■■■■ computers. I blame the unions for that too. Everything ■■■■ that happens is caused by unions. That should keep some people tapping away madly for a while…

Oh Yeah, have a smiley so you know I’m kidding right?

[bobthedog]

There is nothing wrong with workers sticking together. I would never have suggested there was, but there has to be a balance so that you do not suffer in the long run, and no union will ever give that balance.

As has been pointed out on this thread, BA are in dispute over things they can no longer afford to provide and have had to withdraw. The entire world has seen the air travel industry get hammered since 9-11, and have seen many national airlines fail altogether and others go into administration. BA can’t afford to give their staff the bonus, but want to keep all their employees…

So the union go on strike… ■■■■■■■■■

[mike-c]

bobthedog:
As has been pointed out on this thread, BA are in dispute over things they can no longer afford to provide and have had to withdraw. The entire world has seen the air travel industry get hammered since 9-11, and have seen many national airlines fail altogether and others go into administration. BA can’t afford to give their staff the bonus, but want to keep all their employees…

So the union go on strike… [zb]!

Really Bob?
statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1104

Looks like growing passenger numbers, at least for the UK, to me.
BA might well be trying to recoup the £400 million in fines they paid out in the last five years for price fixing !!!

[bobthedog]

OK, point taken, but as passenger numbers rose, so did plane numbers and so did competition. Also, look at fuel costs. Look up the cost of a transatlantic flight from BA and compare it to, say, AirCanada.

At the end of the day, they all have to compete and the only money they are really making is the money they don’t have to spend. If they have to give perks to cabin crew which other airlines can’t afford to do in the first place then they can’t afford it. The unions are just out there with short term gains in mind and they castrate industry with their methods.

the time for unions was when kids were having to go up chimneys, and when there were people being treated like slaves. In order to get decent working practices in place, the unions were invaluable. But they couldn’t stop at that. they couldn’t work on maintaining good conditions, they always wanted more. Their own industries died out and other industries suffered because of it, and through no fault but the greedy unions and their jobsworth shop stewards, and the greedy ■■■■■■■ workers who considered themselves to be worth more than anyone could afford.

Now, when our own transport industry is being hammered from all sides, and advocates are desperately needed, the unions are not there. They showed themselves to be untrustworthy and, in fact, easily smashed and are toothless tigers spitting their words and doing nothing.

And even now, you still get peole who think they are a good thing. Curryfart is a great example. He obviously would need a union to make his boss buy him a 6x6 Jag from the 60s because the Jags in the 60s were the very best, and he would need, naturally, a pay rise so he could afford to run the poxy thing. Oh, and let’s not forget that he would want the government to stop charging so much rent on his council house, and he would probably have to go to the ■■■■■■■ union for that as well.

If anyone seriously thinks that a union will ever be more than an expensive mouthpiece then that person is totally bonkers.

[mike-c]

bobthedog:
OK, point taken, but as passenger numbers rose, so did plane numbers and so did competition. Also, look at fuel costs. Look up the cost of a transatlantic flight from BA and compare it to, say, AirCanada.

At the end of the day, they all have to compete and the only money they are really making is the money they don’t have to spend. If they have to give perks to cabin crew which other airlines can’t afford to do in the first place then they can’t afford it. The unions are just out there with short term gains in mind and they castrate industry with their methods.

the time for unions was when kids were having to go up chimneys, and when there were people being treated like slaves. In order to get decent working practices in place, the unions were invaluable. But they couldn’t stop at that. they couldn’t work on maintaining good conditions, they always wanted more. Their own industries died out and other industries suffered because of it, and through no fault but the greedy unions and their jobsworth shop stewards, and the greedy [zb] workers who considered themselves to be worth more than anyone could afford.

Now, when our own transport industry is being hammered from all sides, and advocates are desperately needed, the unions are not there. They showed themselves to be untrustworthy and, in fact, easily smashed and are toothless tigers spitting their words and doing nothing.

And even now, you still get peole who think they are a good thing. Curryfart is a great example. He obviously would need a union to make his boss buy him a 6x6 Jag from the 60s because the Jags in the 60s were the very best, and he would need, naturally, a pay rise so he could afford to run the poxy thing. Oh, and let’s not forget that he would want the government to stop charging so much rent on his council house, and he would probably have to go to the [zb] union for that as well.

If anyone seriously thinks that a union will ever be more than an expensive mouthpiece then that person is totally bonkers.

Maybe we don’t need Unions anymore Bob since we now have EU social legislation (along with other acts/regulations) to protect our bare minimum working conditions and terms, only thing is a lot of people working within its constraints consistetly say its a load of ■■■■■■■■ . You can’t win

[del949]

Now, when our own transport industry is being hammered from all sides, and advocates are desperately needed, the unions are not there

.

so, which way do you want it?
You seem that keen on slagging unions that you can’t put a coherent argument together!

[bobthedog]

Of course I can. Unions as they became are the death knell to any industry. Yet there are industries which are viewed as easy targets, like transport, which are in need of some support, but if you had some moron like Scargill standing up for it, things would just get worse. That was a nice bit of selective quoting, by the way.

In truth, the drivers and operators are the very best voice the industry could ever have. If there were enough of them that planned a company shutdown at the same time then things would be forced to change. You wouldn’t even need to protest on the roads and would be untouchable by the authorities. I bet the vast majority of drivers would happliy take a week of their holiday at the company behest if it were to be an object lesson to the government and the public.

But a union would stand and rant as they always did. It would solve nothing.

OK, Del. You come up with a cogent argument as to why unions are great. I want examples of industries within the UK that have had industrial disputes, major ones, within the past 20 years and that are continuing to thrive. There are none. I personally do not count teachers, just so you know. We all know they are communists anyway.