Armagedon:
Sally Traffic reports quite an incredible number of rollovers each day enough to make an investigation long overdue.Driver incompetence can be responsible for some but not all.Today’s modern braking systems are maybe not all they are cracked up to be,perhaps if the annual brake test was based on ‘when’ the brakes came on as opposed to ‘if’ maybe the setting up of the braking system could be greatly improved.I am reminded of a snippet produced by myself featured in Truck years ago revealing a Hoyer Tanker working for Esso pulling into Lymm truckstop with the unit brakes[discs]red hot while the trailer brakes [drums]were cold,don’t think Hoyer were overly pleased but they did I believe sort it.But I do continue to feel wheels and a great many of todays rigs are running in a similar condition ie. the unit doing all the braking,while it takes about a minute to adjust the brake setup with modern electrics.Tomorrow Sally will report even more rollovers…careful or you might be one of them.
Short said:"Brake Disc on unit and Brake drums on Trailer resulting in Jack kniffing and ride-Comfort,especially when Emergency Braking.
tommy t:
Could the AUTO box be partly responsible, lots or rollovers also lots more auto trucks in recent years ?
I personally don’t like auto boxes in a car or truck, If i was to buy my own truck it wouldn’t be an auto,
Please explain to me (and everyone else who is currently shaking their head) just how an automated manual transmission will make a lorry overturn
I never said that it was solely responsible for a rollover,But i feel it could play a part albeit a small part, in an auto the resistance from the engine isn’t there when you take your hoof of the gas pedal, therefore in some situations such as approaching or negotiating roundabouts, increasing the need for use of the brakes, and increased also increased freewheeling ,an auto gearbox on it’s own couldn’t be the cause of a rollover , but could be in some way a contributory factor in some circumstances
In modern autos fitted to trucks its just a manual box controled by the ecu so when your foot comes off the gas it acts like a manual would and give you engine resitance.
Angus25:
In modern autos fitted to trucks its just a manual box controled by the ecu so when your foot comes off the gas it acts like a manual would and give you engine resitance.
There’s (or should be) a difference between an automated manual box and an auto which uses a torque converter.Engine braking is all dependent on dowshifting and being in the right gear which requires braking first anyway to bring the road speed down to a point where a downshift to the next gear can be made without over revving the engine but at the point where maximum engine braking is available.I think an automated manual does exactly what a driver would do in downshifting sequentially as the road speed reduces under braking with the difference that the driver doesn’t have to alternate between the brake and the accelerator to match the engine revs for each downshift because the auto does that instead .
Whereas a torque converter type auto doesn’t provide much engine braking because,unlike a clutch,torque converters don’t like transmitting forces from the wheels in the opposite direction to the engine and the downshift points are usually set to low to put the engine in the correct rev range to provide much engine braking anyway.
However if tommy t was right about autos having anything to do with the problem there’d be fire engines rolling over on every shout and I wouldn’t have been able to complete a single lap of Chobham without turning a 38 tonner on it’s side.
On the front of Motor Transport this week it has the picture of the ND truck and the Micra, dont know how the woman survived that un-hurt.
Have seen a few roll overs on the A43, one the other week. Never nice to see. Some drivers do fly round the roundabouts though.
kr79:
On my auto Volvo as soon as you lift of the throttle the exhaust break comes in to play to offer resistance.
If they’re approaching the type of hazard that presents a rollover risk like a roundabout or bend etc it’s going to involve more than just a lift of the accelerator in a high gear and an exhaust brake will do zb all without being in the correct gear and keeping the engine revs high enough.Drivers running into roundabouts or other hazards in too high a gear and/or without getting rid of loads of road speed first on the approach,while the thing is still on the straight,would explain some of the problems and if they’re stupid enough to do that then they’d also be stupid enough to not have a clue about the right steering inputs too.
Angus25:
In modern autos fitted to trucks its just a manual box controled by the ecu so when your foot comes off the gas it acts like a manual would and give you engine resitance.
There’s (or should be) a difference between an automated manual box and an auto which uses a torque converter.Engine braking is all dependent on dowshifting and being in the right gear which requires braking first anyway to bring the road speed down to a point where a downshift to the next gear can be made without over revving the engine but at the point where maximum engine braking is available.I think an automated manual does exactly what a driver would do in downshifting sequentially as the road speed reduces under braking with the difference that the driver doesn’t have to alternate between the brake and the accelerator to match the engine revs for each downshift because the auto does that instead .
Whereas a torque converter type auto doesn’t provide much engine braking because,unlike a clutch,torque converters don’t like transmitting forces from the wheels in the opposite direction to the engine and the downshift points are usually set to low to put the engine in the correct rev range to provide much engine braking anyway.
However if tommy t was right about autos having anything to do with the problem there’d be fire engines rolling over on every shout and I wouldn’t have been able to complete a single lap of Chobham without turning a 38 tonner on it’s side.
Ok there are different types of auto box theres one type that will downshift and use exhaust brake, and there’s the other type that do seet FA to help slow the truck down, such as what was fitted in the older daf cf’s and they may as well not have an exhaust brake too, when you took your foot off the gas with them it was like you was in neutral!! but the likes of the boxes used in the MAN and strallis do offer engine resistance to aid slowing down because they downshift and also have an exhaust brake that will slow you down, some volvos have good exhaust braking , but the old DAF type, useless they didn’t even make the proper noise, they just hissed at ya,lol
kr79:
On my auto Volvo as soon as you lift of the throttle the exhaust break comes in to play to offer resistance.
If they’re approaching the type of hazard that presents a rollover risk like a roundabout or bend etc it’s going to involve more than just a lift of the accelerator in a high gear and an exhaust brake will do zb all without being in the correct gear and keeping the engine revs high enough.Drivers running into roundabouts or other hazards in too high a gear and/or without getting rid of loads of road speed first on the approach,while the thing is still on the straight,would explain some of the problems and if they’re stupid enough to do that then they’d also be stupid enough to not have a clue about the right steering inputs too.
I know that but as you say I shift will do what a driver should be doing in using the gears to get maximum engine braking. But if you need to scrub speed of quickly you use the service brakes.
Angus25:
In modern autos fitted to trucks its just a manual box controled by the ecu so when your foot comes off the gas it acts like a manual would and give you engine resitance.
There’s (or should be) a difference between an automated manual box and an auto which uses a torque converter.Engine braking is all dependent on dowshifting and being in the right gear which requires braking first anyway to bring the road speed down to a point where a downshift to the next gear can be made without over revving the engine but at the point where maximum engine braking is available.I think an automated manual does exactly what a driver would do in downshifting sequentially as the road speed reduces under braking with the difference that the driver doesn’t have to alternate between the brake and the accelerator to match the engine revs for each downshift because the auto does that instead .
Whereas a torque converter type auto doesn’t provide much engine braking because,unlike a clutch,torque converters don’t like transmitting forces from the wheels in the opposite direction to the engine and the downshift points are usually set to low to put the engine in the correct rev range to provide much engine braking anyway.
However if tommy t was right about autos having anything to do with the problem there’d be fire engines rolling over on every shout and I wouldn’t have been able to complete a single lap of Chobham without turning a 38 tonner on it’s side.
Ok there are different types of auto box theres one type that will downshift and use exhaust brake, and there’s the other type that do seet FA to help slow the truck down, such as what was fitted in the older daf cf’s and they may as well not have an exhaust brake too, when you took your foot off the gas with them it was like you was in neutral!! but the likes of the boxes used in the MAN and strallis do offer engine resistance to aid slowing down because they downshift and also have an exhaust brake that will slow you down, some volvos have good exhaust braking , but the old DAF type, useless they didn’t even make the proper noise, they just hissed at ya,lol
Most exhaust brakes will help to a greater or lesser degree but the common thing with them is that the engine speed needs to be kept high enough to make them effective with means downshifting at as high a road speed as possible for the next gear down without over revving the engine.
But the type of auto that you’re describing,which feels like it’s in neutral as soon as you lift,would certainly fit the torque converter type.As I’ve said most fire engines and buses are fitted with that type of box and roll overs don’t seem to be such a big problem in those applications even,as in my experience,hauling up to around 4000 gallons of bulk liquids on a six wheeler,with a high centre of gravity,at relatively higher speeds than anything found in a commercial application.It’s just a case of realising that engine braking isn’t going to be a factor in slowing down with those types on the approach to any type of roll over hazard and factoring that into the way that hazards are approached.
As others have said it’s mostly about approaching hazards at a correct speed and use of correct steering inputs and it’s those who get that wrong who make it bad for other drivers to have to explain the different types of roll over that involve some other factor because,understandably,the guvnors and the police investigators just paint everyone with the same brush based on the lowest common denominator of driver.
tommy t:
Ok there are different types of auto box theres one type that will downshift and use exhaust brake, and there’s the other type that do seet FA to help slow the truck down, such as what was fitted in the older daf cf’s and they may as well not have an exhaust brake too, when you took your foot off the gas with them it was like you was in neutral!! but the likes of the boxes used in the MAN and strallis do offer engine resistance to aid slowing down because they downshift and also have an exhaust brake that will slow you down, some volvos have good exhaust braking , but the old DAF type, useless they didn’t even make the proper noise, they just hissed at ya,lol
The Daf, MAN and Stralis all use the same gearbox
It’s the ZF AS-Tronic, I’ve used it in all three, the Daf and the MAN on road test and I owned a few Stralis. The only difference between the three is the ‘gearstick’ In the Man it was a rotary knob for mode selection and then you could shift manually from a stalk on the steering column, the other two had a ‘stick’ and a few buttons
Now before this turns into a beat up tommy t competition, the Daf you had problems with may have had a software glitch, or the company running it may have interfered with the software so that it wasn’t able to do everything it should do (was it Reed Boardall who welded steel plates over the I-Shift controls?) so that has to be taken into account, because a proper automated manual has all the advantages of both an automatic and a manual if you know how to use it properly
Poor control at low-speed manoeuvring is one disadvantage inability to roll/tow start is another.
The only advantage I can think of with a manual with in a rollover scenario is maybe (and it’s a big maybe) you might have more chance of powering out of it in manual if you noticed a trailer wheel lift in the mirror. Big if and wouldn’t be enough for me to want a manual.
Own Account Driver:
I think all the advantages is a bit strong.
Poor control at low-speed manoeuvring is one disadvantage inability to roll/tow start is another.
The only advantage I can think of with a manual with in a rollover scenario is maybe (and it’s a big maybe) you might have more chance of powering out of it in manual if you noticed a trailer wheel lift in the mirror. Big if and wouldn’t be enough for me to want a manual.
Powering out of a rollover, in Hollywood maybe
Roll/tow starts were never a problem for me, I use those new fangled battery/starter motor combinations, you need to move with the times driver
Personally I never had an issue with low speed manouvering, for sure you don’t have the ultimate control you get with a clutch pedal, but a little finesse on the throttle will give almost the same results
The same applies to roundabouts etc, I would flick it into manual and always be in the gear I wanted to be in, I drive using the engine brake for most of my slowing down (now that we have decent engine brakes) so nine times out of ten I will be in the correct gear anyway. Notice I said drive, that’s the key word, if you ‘drive’ the lorry you’ll find the automated manuals are excellent, if you (not you personally, but the general ‘you’) just put in an appearance behind the wheel for your shift you’ll have a different opinion
Own Account Driver:
I think all the advantages is a bit strong.
Poor control at low-speed manoeuvring is one disadvantage inability to roll/tow start is another.
The only advantage I can think of with a manual with in a rollover scenario is maybe (and it’s a big maybe) you might have more chance of powering out of it in manual if you noticed a trailer wheel lift in the mirror. Big if and wouldn’t be enough for me to want a manual.
Powering out of a rollover, in Hollywood maybe
Roll/tow starts were never a problem for me, I use those new fangled battery/starter motor combinations, you need to move with the times driver
Personally I never had an issue with low speed manouvering, for sure you don’t have the ultimate control you get with a clutch pedal, but a little finesse on the throttle will give almost the same results
The same applies to roundabouts etc, I would flick it into manual and always be in the gear I wanted to be in, I drive using the engine brake for most of my slowing down (now that we have decent engine brakes) so nine times out of ten I will be in the correct gear anyway. Notice I said drive, that’s the key word, if you ‘drive’ the lorry you’ll find the automated manuals are excellent, if you (not you personally, but the general ‘you’) just put in an appearance behind the wheel for your shift you’ll have a different opinion
It’s alright you’re preaching to the converted every truck I’ve owned since 2000 has been auto as posted on another (one of the endless) auto vs manual threads. I was citing the only possibilities I could see.
I think a few are underestimating the slowing power of a good engine/exhaust/retarder brake. I hardly ever touch the service brake pedal except to tap it to prompt the box to start changing down faster if I’ve got a good view to plan ahead.
You’re spot on there, modern engine brakes are excellent pieces of kit, they do need rpms though, so you have to use your loaf to get the best from them, but it isn’t difficult, just flick her in to manual, hit the engine brake switch and pull back on the stick a couple of times, hey presto, you slow down, when you need to get going again, you’re in the correct gear, foot on the throttle, back into auto, hit resume on the cruise, sit back, relax and enjoy the ride, piece of ■■■■
I adopt the same approach in a manual lorry too, my current ride has a very good engine brake (Jacobs) and an 18spd Eaton fuller Roadranger, so clutchless shifts are the norm. I only ever use my brakes for the final stop, all my slowing down is done by going down through the box on the jakes, two benefits to this, one, my brakes are nice and cool for when I need them in an emergency and two, the jake brake makes an awesome noise through my straight through pipes
Help me out here lads if you can.
I know “Rollovers” do happen, but does anyone have any statistics to say it is happening more frequently with modern trucks? Or is it because it is reported easier because of modern technology ie Internet… than it was years ago? I suspect it may be the latter but may be wrong.
Don’t know any proper statistics but both the number of roundabouts on UK roads and the average height of lorries must have both increased significantly over the past decades.
I think it has more to do with the lack of skill by the operators of the vehicles
I think there are a lot more rear end collisions than there used to be, heavier traffic density is one factor in that, but my first point is the biggest influence
I know people are sick of the cliche ‘it wasn’t like this in my day’ but there is a lot of truth in that statement, today nobody has any time for anybody else, not just on the roads, but society in general. I think that this mentality is the biggest cause of any type of accident on our roads
On another thread, there has been some ■■■■ taking (by me especially) about driver’s concerns over bridge height (you could name a million other things that they worry about unecessarily) that has always existed among the inexperienced, but instead of a bit of banter in the yard, it now goes on the internet and every man and his dog can have a little dig, it is the same thing as the perceived increase in accidents of all kinds, I don’t think it happens any more than it used to, as you say, the internet and camera phones have made it easier to report. Take the Trans Am rollover thread, nobody would know about that unless they were sat on a ferry with someone who saw it, now it goes up on trucknet before the truck goes back the right way up
Own Account Driver:
Don’t know any proper statistics but both the number of roundabouts on UK roads and the average height of lorries must have both increased significantly over the past decades.
And probably the number of Trucks with an auto box fitted too, was in part why i suggested it, but talking of roundabouts the actual design of them has also changed for instance there does seem to be more of this type Google Maps with sloping curbs some are over 1ft in hight ,should trailer run up one,i would imagine a rollover scenario more likely, but of course the roundabout design on it’s own isn’t a danger but some designs are not as forgiving of driver error & or a top heavy load
I have done a bit of hanging meat and know how little can set it swinging, there’s one place on the M25 that will do it , due to the sharp change in camber of the lanes , even more fun if the units service brakes are not balanced properly ,
