Apart from your post I’ve yet to see that in writing but I do agree they are the occasions I would use POA.
It occurred to me after reading ROG’s post that if a driver was in a long queue waiting to tip and left his tacho on break.
That driver would have to remain stationary for fifteen minutes for his break to be a break. If he has to move (like you do to keep your place) he would have remain stationary for thirty minutes before he moves again. Almost impossible in a queue.
Therefore the mode is break but because the driver has moved a break has not been recorded. That space on the chart has no legal relevance at all.
Perhaps that’s why the Suits in the EU invented POA?
P.S Thanks for the job offer Helen but it’s okay, I’ve got a job already. Haha
Apart from your post I’ve yet to see that in writing but I do agree they are the occasions I would use POA.
It occurred to me after reading ROG’s post that if a driver was in a long queue waiting to tip and left his tacho on break.
That driver would have to remain stationary for fifteen minutes for his break to be a break. If he has to move (like you do to keep your place) he would have remain stationary for thirty minutes before he moves again. Almost impossible in a queue.
Therefore the mode is break but because the driver has moved a break has not been recorded. That space on the chart has no legal relevance at all.
Perhaps that’s why the Suits in the EU invented POA?
P.S Thanks for the job offer Helen but it’s okay, I’ve got a job already. Haha
That space on the chart does have legal relevance. It doesn’t have to be 15 minutes to be break, only if you want it to count towards a 45.
Apart from your post I’ve yet to see that in writing but I do agree they are the occasions I would use POA.
It occurred to me after reading ROG’s post that if a driver was in a long queue waiting to tip and left his tacho on break.
That driver would have to remain stationary for fifteen minutes for his break to be a break. If he has to move (like you do to keep your place) he would have remain stationary for thirty minutes before he moves again. Almost impossible in a queue.
Therefore the mode is break but because the driver has moved a break has not been recorded. That space on the chart has no legal relevance at all.
Perhaps that’s why the Suits in the EU invented POA?
P.S Thanks for the job offer Helen but it’s okay, I’ve got a job already. Haha
That space on the chart does have legal relevance. It doesn’t have to be 15 minutes to be break, only if you want it to count towards a 45.
Okay,
If the mode is break and you are stationary for seven minutes that isn’t a break and that time can’t accumulate into a future break. So what is the legal status of that space on your card?
Apart from your post I’ve yet to see that in writing but I do agree they are the occasions I would use POA.
It occurred to me after reading ROG’s post that if a driver was in a long queue waiting to tip and left his tacho on break.
That driver would have to remain stationary for fifteen minutes for his break to be a break. If he has to move (like you do to keep your place) he would have remain stationary for thirty minutes before he moves again. Almost impossible in a queue.
Therefore the mode is break but because the driver has moved a break has not been recorded. That space on the chart has no legal relevance at all.
Perhaps that’s why the Suits in the EU invented POA?
P.S Thanks for the job offer Helen but it’s okay, I’ve got a job already. Haha
That space on the chart does have legal relevance. It doesn’t have to be 15 minutes to be break, only if you want it to count towards a 45.
Okay,
If the mode is break and you are stationary for seven minutes that isn’t a break and that time can’t accumulate into a future break. So what is the legal status of that space on your card?
W
It’s a break, your not working. What do you think it is? Not all breaks need to count towards a legally required one. You stop twice for 5 minutes a time on a four and a half hour stint doesn’t mean you can only drive 4 hours 20 minutes, you can drive 4 and a half, because those were breaks.
It’s not a ‘legal’ break is it? You know a break must reach fifteen minutes to be legal anything less is just empty space on the chart. Well that’s what I think our favourite suits in the EU think.
Driving, other work and POA have no minimum limit only a maximum limit.
Rest and Breaks have a minimum limit and no maximum limit.
It’s only a rough idea that I thought of on the way home in the car I don’t mind if I’m wrong but I’m really warming to the idea.
It’s too late now I’ll look out for your reply in the morning.
AlexWignall:
It’s not a ‘legal’ break is it? You know a break must reach fifteen minutes to be legal anything less is just empty space on the chart. Well that’s what I think our favourite suits in the EU think.
For a break to be used toward a required tacho or WTD break it has to be at least 15 minutes long. That doesn’t mean breaks of less than 15 minutes are not breaks. They are still breaks but they cannot be used toward the required breaks for the regulations.
Look at a printout from a digi tacho and see what periods of less than 15 minutes with the mode switch set to break are recorded as. If you had a 10 minute break, a 7 minute break, a 15 minute break, a 5 minute break, a 30 minute break, a 15 minute break and a 20 minute break in a day the digi tacho will show beside each of those periods the break symbol and in the section were it totals each mode that you have had 1 hour and 42 minutes of break. There is no empty space where those breaks that cannot be used for required breaks were taken and those periods do have a relevance, they don’t count toward your 48 hour average/60 hour maximum weekly working time.
I agree Coffee that the flaw in my argument is that if break mode is selected each individual minute is a minute less on the Drivers overall working time for the week.
I think POA was invented to properly account for those ‘individual minutes’ wasted in queues at RDC’s or for the Train etc.
If you think about it POA is an obvious solution if you are a Beaurocrat in Brussels with only second hand knowledge of how the laws you invent are applied on the ground.
I’m sure they think that each time we would select break we would be free to enjoy ‘tiffin’ on a nice picnic blanket at the side of the road.
Not that we select break to grimly try to keep our average WTD time down in case we get a Roadside check or the boss gets a visit from the VOSA.
AlexWignall:
I agree Coffee that the flaw in my argument is that if break mode is selected each individual minute is a minute less on the Drivers overall working time for the week.
I think POA was invented to properly account for those ‘individual minutes’ wasted in queues at RDC’s or for the Train etc.
If that was the case they wouldn’t have included the stipulation about knowing the likely length of the period in advance.
AlexWignall:
I’m sure they think that each time we would select break we would be free to enjoy ‘tiffin’ on a nice picnic blanket at the side of the road
If that was the case they would have included something about ‘being free to’ in the requirements for a break, they didn’t.
AlexWignall:
Not that we select break to grimly try to keep our average WTD time down in case we get a Roadside check or the boss gets a visit from the VOSA.
Not at all Coffee, if you use the definitions of advance knowledge of POA that you posted earlier you could always use POA when faced with a long queue at the Train or a familiar RDC.
I said that’s what Beaurocrats think we are doing during our breaks only to emphasise the fact that most of us a grimly trying to make a break count in a queue at an RDC.
I have had my use of POA and average WTD commented on by a VOSA officer at a roadside check at Cuerdon. That might be relevent to you if you are doing a trunk to Charnock Richard at the moment.
I still think POA is the beaurocratic solution to the use of time that is too interuppted to be a break but is by your own definition not other work or driving.
I know what ‘period of availability’ (POA) means for the RT(WT)R but what does the ‘availability’ symbol actually mean in regards to drivers hours and tacho regs?
I looked in 561/2006 but could not find a definition but there was VOSAs take on it in GV262-03 below
Availability
Covers periods of waiting time, the duration of which is known
about in advance. Examples of what might count as a period of
availability (POA) are accompanying a vehicle on a ferry crossing
or waiting while other workers load/unload your vehicle…
Helen Stevens:
LOL! You are all getting over excited now. Perhaps it has not occurred to you lot before that people whose job it is to read tachos can actually read more than you realise. Your tachos are being scrutinised in this way by your gaffer, by the people in your payroll department, every day. You just don’t know it. I am sorry if it offends you that I can read a tacho. It doesn’t offend me that you can reverse a truck. Afterall, it is your job, right?
We have a whole team of VERY trustworthy drivers. And I know this partly because I know the drivers, and also partly because I can read a tacho chart. With the agency lads we get in, it can be interesting, when I ask them why they haven’t booked that extra stop on the services as a break. If you’re not doing anything wrong, why should it worry you?
nobody from our office would dare ask a driver why they had stopped at a services for an extra hour.if they make life difficult for me they know i could make it far worse for them
the only thing you are requied to do at our place is make money.
Helen Stevens:
LOL! You are all getting over excited now. Perhaps it has not occurred to you lot before that people whose job it is to read tachos can actually read more than you realise. Your tachos are being scrutinised in this way by your gaffer, by the people in your payroll department, every day. You just don’t know it. I am sorry if it offends you that I can read a tacho. It doesn’t offend me that you can reverse a truck. Afterall, it is your job, right?
We have a whole team of VERY trustworthy drivers. And I know this partly because I know the drivers, and also partly because I can read a tacho chart. With the agency lads we get in, it can be interesting, when I ask them why they haven’t booked that extra stop on the services as a break. If you’re not doing anything wrong, why should it worry you?
nobody from our office would dare ask a driver why they had stopped at a services for an extra hour.if they make life difficult for me they know i could make it far worse for them
the only thing you are requied to do at our place is make money.
if you do your in if you don`t your out…end of
You wouldn’t stop at the services for an extra hour. How would you meet your only requirement to make money?
I know what ‘period of availability’ (POA) means for the RT(WT)R but what does the ‘availability’ symbol actually mean in regards to drivers hours and tacho regs?
Not a lot. You could never book any POA and still be fully compliant with the tacho regs. You would be hard pushed to never book driving, other work or break and also comply with them
ROG:
I assume there is a legal definition somewhere …
ROG:
I looked in 561/2006 but could not find a definition
It’s not part of 561/2006 so that is why there is no definition in there.
There is.
“period of availability” means a period during which the mobile worker is not required to remain at his workstation, but is required to be available to answer any calls to start or resume driving or to carry out other work , including periods during which the mobile worker is accompanying a vehicle being transported by a ferry or by a train as well as periods of waiting at frontiers and those due to traffic prohibitions;
AlexWignall:
I have had my use of POA and average WTD commented on by a VOSA officer at a roadside check at Cuerdon. That might be relevent to you if you are doing a trunk to Charnock Richard at the moment.
I have no idea where Cuerdon is but they will be hard pushed to find any faults with either our tacho or WTD hours if they stop us.
This week just gone. Longest shift was actually 8.75 hours, others were 8.5 hours, but we book and are paid for 9.5, all 9.5 hours with no deduction for break as we don’t actually get a proper break. The most driving in the shift for me was 4 hours 11 minutes and that was only because the M6 was shut at Stafford and we had to come off at 14 and back on at 13. Every other shift my driving time was less than 4 hours, although last night was close to breaking 4 hours at 3 hours 59 minutes because we came off the M1 at J12 and back on at J9 due to long delays through the roadworks. Between 4 - 4.5 hours POA each shift and the rest other work.
The other work consists of hooking and checking first trailer and getting the paperwork then dropping that trailer and hooking and checking return trailer. No fuelling to do as the vehicles have enough in them for our run and for the regular driver to get to where he is going the next day. No break is booked at all as it isn’t required although when the analysis sheets come back the first 45 minutes of Jim’s POA will be marked as ‘break assumed’.
We download our cards at the end of every shift and at the start of each shift we do manual entries to cover that time from leaving the vehicle to leaving the building.
Our WTD average is going to be less than 25 hours a week.
Thank you for your reply coffee but I have since found out that the definition of the availability symbol changed in April this year to meet the requirements of the RT(WT)R
My source for this info is well know to many on this site - thanks Graeme
It would be a foolhardy VOSA man to cross swords with you Coffee, perhaps you should get a warning sign for them in your truck?
It’s been a fun little debate with a TNUK Jedi but I don’t think it’s going to go any furthur. I still think I might of made an ‘interesting’ point but I shall leave it at that.
ROG:
Thank you for your reply coffee but I have since found out that the definition of the availability symbol changed in April this year to meet the requirements of the RT(WT)R
My source for this info is well know to many on this site - thanks Graeme
Cheers, I didn’t know it had changed. So what is the definition now?
Perhaps it has not occurred to you lot before that people whose job it is to read tachos can actually read more than you realise. Your tachos are being scrutinised in this way by your gaffer, by the people in your payroll department, every day. You just don’t know it. I am sorry if it offends you that I can read a tacho. It doesn’t offend me that you can reverse a truck. Afterall, it is your job, right?
If you’re not doing anything wrong, why should it worry you? 
