Are there still companies out there without trackers?!
I would say my employer pays a reasonable wage better than most around here. My piont was we can spend a lot of our day on break. Today 1 hour and 5 minutes but that is unusual, friday was 5 hours and 7 minutes and thats not unusual. Knock that off an 11 hour day and I would be feeling sick.
Can’t really put it on POA ,because I’m not available and can’t use other work cause I’m not doing anything.
knight:
I would say my employer pays a reasonable wage better than most around here. My piont was we can spend a lot of our day on break. Today 1 hour and 5 minutes but that is unusual, friday was 5 hours and 7 minutes and thats not unusual. Knock that off an 11 hour day and I would be feeling sick.
Can’t really put it on POA ,because I’m not available and can’t use other work cause I’m not doing anything.
Most of our lads are on a minimum 9 hour day (except those who are on an 8 hour day or have a salaried role). So if they work 6 hours, we pay them 9. If they work 11 hours, we pay them 9 at standard plus 2 hours at overtime. When I say work, I mean driving plus other work plus POA (= necessary waiting when they weren’t required to be on break, but had no choice but to sit there). But we expect them to take their breaks at a (suitable) time convenient to the customer where (legally) possible. Eg when they are waiting behind another lorry etc.
What are you doing to not be ‘available’? Surely you are at work, and ready to drive your truck as soon as they are ready for you to? (And not legally required to be on break). I take not available to be ‘popped down the shop for half hour’?
Seems we’re comparing apples with oranges here…
Helen Stevens:
(where’s the smilie with the bobbing out tongue?)
Hello, someone looking for me?
Mike-C:
Helen Stevens:
(where’s the smilie with the bobbing out tongue?)Hello, someone looking for me?
Possibly. If you have a bobbing out tongue 
By not available I mean being loaded or unloaded it’s rare we leave the trailer so we can’t do anything else. We’re not alllowed to unload them so we just sit and wait. Will give the truck a clean if I can but some places don’t like you doing it.
It’s the trailer that’s not available. You’re available for work, as soon as the work is ready for you. You’re not legally required to be on a break, and can move as soon as they say go. How is that not ‘available’? 
If the gaffer rang you up and said ‘Oi, forget that trailer, take this one instead’, you’d be on your way, wouldn’t you? 
Coffeeholic:
Helen Stevens:
Your tachos are being scrutinised in this way by your gaffer, by the people in your payroll department, every day. You just don’t know it.
I know it, but I never book POA and I don’t work for a boss who questions every break on the tacho, some days 5 or 6 hours, as he knows I can do the job he has tasked me to do and trust me to do it.
This is the best way for anyone running a haulage firm, get decent guys you can trust, and they will in effect run themselves with little hassle and get the job done. Treat them well, show them respect, and they will bend over backwards for you. They will also save you a fortune.
Helen Stevens:
It’s the trailer that’s not available. You’re available for work, as soon as the work is ready for you. You’re not legally required to be on a break, and can move as soon as they say go. How is that not ‘available’?If the gaffer rang you up and said ‘Oi, forget that trailer, take this one instead’, you’d be on your way, wouldn’t you?
Doesn’t sound in either of those scenarios that you would know the duration of the wait in advance so not legally POA. Not driving, not doing other work so therefore you are on break.
I’ve booked more POA in the last three nights, not by choice but I don’t have an option to book anything else for the period, than I have since it was introduced, 11 hours and 45 minutes. 
In my job we just don’t get any POA anyway,we’re driving,tipping/loading,waiting (on duty & unable to freely dispose of our time) or on break. It’s all just a con to increase the 48hr week without it looking like you’re working vast amounts of hours.
Coffee has it quite right IMHO.
As far as I’m aware all EU countries use POA but all except the UK accept POA as break which means there are no prob’s with the vagaries of the digitach either.
Helen Stevens:
knight:
I would say my employer pays a reasonable wage better than most around here. My piont was we can spend a lot of our day on break. Today 1 hour and 5 minutes but that is unusual, friday was 5 hours and 7 minutes and thats not unusual. Knock that off an 11 hour day and I would be feeling sick.
Can’t really put it on POA ,because I’m not available and can’t use other work cause I’m not doing anything.Most of our lads are on a minimum 9 hour day (except those who are on an 8 hour day or have a salaried role). So if they work 6 hours, we pay them 9. If they work 11 hours, we pay them 9 at standard plus 2 hours at overtime. When I say work, I mean driving plus other work plus POA (= necessary waiting when they weren’t required to be on break, but had no choice but to sit there). But we expect them to take their breaks at a (suitable) time convenient to the customer where (legally) possible. Eg when they are waiting behind another lorry etc.
What are you doing to not be ‘available’? Surely you are at work, and ready to drive your truck as soon as they are ready for you to? (And not legally required to be on break). I take not available to be ‘popped down the shop for half hour’?
This is almost a carbon copy of the pay structure at our firm, except our overtime starts at eight hours.
Our wages are calculated from the weekly analysis of our charts and digicards were everything is paid except breaks.
To that end POA is invaluable.
It means that if we are called upon to wait for a long time at a customer we can still earn overtime but still only take one forty five minute break in the day.
I work with a nice team of fairly happy drivers. The last major ‘issue’ was a comedy complaint from a new bloke about Space Cabs and that was rapidly ironed out thanks to TNUK and Coffeholic.
Anyone of our blokes could easily leave and get a job at ESL at one of their numerous depots nearby or one of big container firms in Manchester.The fact that the lads don’t feel the need to tells me our system must be working.
This thread has been a pleasure to read and it is nice to see a new TNUK member give the TNUK stalwarts a run for their money in such a well informed and reasonable style.
W
AlexWignall:
This is almost a carbon copy of the pay structure at our firm, except our overtime starts at eight hours.Our wages are calculated from the weekly analysis of our charts and digicards were everything is paid except breaks.
To that end POA is invaluable.
It means that if we are called upon to wait for a long time at a customer we can still earn overtime but still only take one forty five minute break in the day.
I work with a nice team of fairly happy drivers. The last major ‘issue’ was a comedy complaint from a new bloke about Space Cabs and that was rapidly ironed out thanks to TNUK and Coffeholic.
Anyone of our blokes could easily leave and get a job at ESL at one of their numerous depots nearby or one of big container firms in Manchester.The fact that the lads don’t feel the need to tells me our system must be working.
This thread has been a pleasure to read and it is nice to see a new TNUK member give the TNUK stalwarts a run for their money in such a well informed and reasonable style.
W
Thanks Alex for your input. It seems that some people here think we have it in for our drivers because we are so horrible as to ask them to press a button to distinguish between a break and unavoidable waiting time. This valuable information helps us to go to our customer and say ‘Oi, we need you to pay us for this waiting time on this tacho. My lad did his best for you, took his break while waiting, but then you cost us another three hours I’ve got to pay my driver.’
Our lads are well looked after. Paid a decent wage with a minimum 9 (or with some lads 8 ) hour day. We have decent kit and service it properly. We don’t expect the drivers to run illegal hours in illegal kit with illegal tyres. We put things right that go wrong. We are not perfect, but we are a heck of a lot better than many employers, and our asking them to use POA is such a tiny little thing which you lot have blown out of all proportion and see as some kind of vendetta against our drivers! I would have thought that most of you would have more pressing things to worry about, with what some employers ask their drivers to do 
In reality the majority of our drivers are paid at least the amount of time they have worked less 45 minutes. More if their total day is less than 9 hours 45 minutes. So please find somebody else’s case to get on, because you really don’t need to get on mine! 
Rant over. Calm now. Sorry about that.
I don’t think anyone is really on your case Helen.
The beauty of any kind of forum is that people have different points of view and they are free to come forward with those views. The reader can then decide what is right or wrong for themselves. Even if the arguement goes on ‘ad infinitum’ like a certain anti Polish thread recently.
I always thought forums like TNUK would perpetuate popular drivers myths and an anti haulage attitude. I’m happy to say that my preconceptions were wrong. Coffee and the others are quite adept at kicking such rubbish into touch. You should feel flattered Helen that the TNUK regulars gave your replies the attention they have done.
W
Helen Stevens:
unavoidable waiting time.
Isnt POA a period of waiting time with the duration known in advance ?
unavoidable or not, if the duration is not known in advance then its not POA !! so why would you ask your drivers to use it when that will probably get them 5 to 10 years avoiding Bubba in the showers ■■?
Helen Stevens:
Thanks Alex for your input. It seems that some people here think we have it in for our drivers because we are so horrible as to ask them to press a button to distinguish between a break and unavoidable waiting time. This valuable information helps us to go to our customer and say ‘Oi, we need you to pay us for this waiting time on this tacho. My lad did his best for you, took his break while waiting, but then you cost us another three hours I’ve got to pay my driver.’We don’t expect the drivers to run illegal hours in illegal kit with illegal tyres. We put things right that go wrong. We are not perfect, but we are a heck of a lot better than many employers, and our asking them to use POA is such a tiny little thing which you lot have blown out of all proportion and see as some kind of vendetta against our drivers! I would have thought that most of you would have more pressing things to worry about, with what some employers ask their drivers to do…
It seems to me that your company is often using POA incorrectly to make it easier for the company to work out financial solutions
From what you seem to be saying is that if one of your drivers gets to a place of delivery and no-one can give that driver a length of waiting time then the driver must book POA as your company does not want them booking the time as break even if they are there for hours?
If that is the case then the drivers are not only liable for recording that time incorrectly but your company will not pay them as they are booking break - is that what you are saying?
Perhaps you ask them to book those hours of waiting as other work but that is also technically incorrect IMO if they are not working
I feel for those drivers if they are caught in a choice between recording correctly or being paid
Darb:
Helen Stevens:
unavoidable waiting time.Isnt POA a period of waiting time with the duration known in advance ?
unavoidable or not, if the duration is not known in advance then its not POA !! so why would you ask your drivers to use it when that will probably get them 5 to 10 years avoiding Bubba in the showers ■■?
Fair enough,
How far in advance do you need to know about your requirement to use POA?
A month? A week? Maybe just five minutes before you reverse on the bay and the unloader explains how long it will take to tip your trailer?
I’ve looked in the VOSA Handbook and it doesn’t say. Could anyone else enlighten me?
At my last roadside check The Insepector commented on how pleased he was to see good use of POA and Other Work.
Other drivers maybe happy to use Break as their default setting I used to be the same but I think in the age of Digicards, WTD & POA it might be wise to use POA (when allowed) or select Other Work when you are required to.
W
AlexWignall:
Darb:
Helen Stevens:
unavoidable waiting time.Isnt POA a period of waiting time with the duration known in advance ?
unavoidable or not, if the duration is not known in advance then its not POA !! so why would you ask your drivers to use it when that will probably get them 5 to 10 years avoiding Bubba in the showers ■■?
Fair enough,
How far in advance do you need to know about your requirement to use POA?
A month? A week? Maybe just five minutes before you reverse on the bay and the unloader explains how long it will take to tip your trailer?
I’ve looked in the VOSA Handbook and it doesn’t say. Could anyone else enlighten me?
You arrive at a place and are told it will be an hour before we can tip you then that can be POA.
You back on the bay and they say, you should be done in 45 minutes drive, then that can be POA.
You go to a place regularly and each time you are there it takes a couple of hours to tip/load then that can be POA.
You need to know by either being told or by past experience to book POA
AlexWignall:
Other drivers maybe happy to Break as their default setting I used to be the same but I think in the age of Digicards, WTD & POA it might be wise to use POA (when allowed) or Other Work when you have too.
Why do you have to? POA and break both don’t count toward working time for the WTD so no difference in using either. If a period qualifies as POA then it certainly qualifies as break, the requirements for break are less so more opportunity to use break. Nothing in the regulations that says you have to use POA.
The jobs we are on about are regular jobs. The drivers are there day in day out. They can assess the likely waiting period with reasonable accuracy even if they are not told, since they know when the forktruck driver takes his breaks, and approximately how much time each wagon in the yard before him will take to tip and reload. Wagons are tipped in strict rotation unless there is something very unusual going on. All drivers report to the forklift driver on arrival, and if anything out of the ordinary is going on, they will be told then. Therefore POA is fine, in my opinion, and seemingly in coffee’s opinion too from what he has said, though he will have to speak for himself.
Are you all happy now? 
I know it’s not supposed to be personal Alex. And I also know if I could only learn to keep shtum then people would stop disagreeing with everything I say! But I can’t help but defend our working methods, so perhaps I have it coming. Sounds like your methods are very close to ours, and I agree the tacho looks much better when POA is used correctly, like you actually thought about what mode you should use, and then bothered to use it. I much prefer drivers who are open to working the way we want them to work (within the legal framework of course) with a ‘can do’ attitude. Life is better that way, for them and for us. Do you want a job? (Just kidding Alex - and anybody else out there who might ask. Sorry!)
tachograph:
Coffeeholic:
ady1:
Darb:
How would VOSA view it, if they pulled you anf there was no POA booked at all ?according to our driver trainer your for the HIGH JUMP,credit card at the ready
Your driver trainer is an arse. I trust this clarifies matters.
To be fair that was established in this thread
Just checked, yep he talks ■■■■■■■