I think I’ve been misunderstood on my stance on POA.
Example: (“Palletrunner” is a made-up firm for this)
If you find yourself doing a monday-friday palletrunner 18:00 to 09:00, then my objection isn’t that the “poa isn’t paid” (as agency it will be of course!) but for full timers: - they’ll be working a 75 hour week with 9 hours between shifts every day. It’s bent I say. Bugger what you get paid for it, that’s upto the driver picking up the job.
Being “Expected” to “run bent” by abusing POA to conceal hours on duty as a “standard practice” is what my objection is. Perhaps being paid for them might encourage some drivers to do the deed, but if I find myself doing the above job described, I’ll hand away thursday and friday upon getting home Thursday morning from the previous 15 hour shift… Needless to say, I don’t find myself being asked back at that particular palletrunner, but there’s plenty others out there who describe themselves as “different” until you find yourself picking up a leave driver’s week…
I only do very occasional odd days of pallet work now, thus there’s no mistake or misunderstandings. 15 hours for a singleton shift is fine for me. A whole week of them is not.
hyper26:
if its not legal poa as in :your going to be 30 mins drive: would that not be falsification of records if anybody was enforcing itas its not a true representation of hours worked?
but I could show a printout with 2,3,4,28,52 minutes, whatever. Who can prove I wasn’t told “park over there for x minutes?”
VOSA have told me more than once that POA should not be used “if you could move off any minute”. Only if you KNOW you are going to be stationary for “over half an hour” should it be used.
Thus, 2,6,9 minutes or whatever isn’t going to be recognised as POA booked, but might get criticised by VOSA if you show it to them on a printout.
As far as I know, less than 15 minutes doesn’t register on POA mode digicard anyway? Try setting your mode to POA when you’ve just finished a 45m break, (let the driving hours set to zero by leaving it on normal mode for 1 minute)
Then leave on POA for five minutes, then switch back to normal mode for one minute to see what I mean…
hyper26:
if its not legal poa as in :your going to be 30 mins drive: would that not be falsification of records if anybody was enforcing itas its not a true representation of hours worked?
but I could show a printout with 2,3,4,28,52 minutes, whatever. Who can prove I wasn’t told “park over there for x minutes?”
VOSA have told me more than once that POA should not be used “if you could move off any minute”. Only if you KNOW you are going to be stationary for “over half an hour” should it be used.
Whoever told you that was talking rubbish, there’s no stipulation that I know of that states that it can only be POA if it’s 30 minutes or more
Winseer:
As far as I know, less than 15 minutes doesn’t register on POA mode digicard anyway?
I’ve no idea where you’ve got that information from but it’s wrong, one minute of POA will register and be shown on a printout.
Winseer:
Try setting your mode to POA when you’ve just finished a 45m break, (let the driving hours set to zero by leaving it on normal mode for 1 minute)
Then leave on POA for five minutes, then switch back to normal mode for one minute to see what I mean…
Just flicked through this thread so I may have got this wrong . but are some actually saying on here that they are not getting paid for POA I know the job has turned to sh, but I didn’t think anybody would be daft enough to agree to that, these firms should be named, they obviously can’t see anything wrong with it so they can’t complain if their name is disclosed.
As for POA, it’s just a cop out to appease the organisations such as Tesco etc so they aren’t forced to get their acts together concerning unloading, and at the same time keep us working longer hours than any other industry for the same crap rate, but the clever bit is we are being seen on the face of it, to be complying to the WTD by the application of said cop out POA.
So bearing this in mind I would think that the scrapping it point is the usual RDC drivercrap.
hyper26:
if its not legal poa as in :your going to be 30 mins drive: would that not be falsification of records if anybody was enforcing itas its not a true representation of hours worked?
but I could show a printout with 2,3,4,28,52 minutes, whatever. Who can prove I wasn’t told “park over there for x minutes?”
VOSA have told me more than once that POA should not be used “if you could move off any minute”. Only if you KNOW you are going to be stationary for “over half an hour” should it be used.
Whoever told you that was talking rubbish, there’s no stipulation that I know of that states that it can only be POA if it’s 30 minutes or more
Winseer:
As far as I know, less than 15 minutes doesn’t register on POA mode digicard anyway?
I’ve no idea where you’ve got that information from but it’s wrong, one minute of POA will register and be shown on a printout.
Winseer:
Try setting your mode to POA when you’ve just finished a 45m break, (let the driving hours set to zero by leaving it on normal mode for 1 minute)
Then leave on POA for five minutes, then switch back to normal mode for one minute to see what I mean…
I don’t understand what you think will happen
The last VOSA official to explain things to me had pulled me in at Fleet services, and was really going to town, checking underneath the trailer for cracks, etc. as well as carefully looking at my tacho.
He asked me why I had booked so little POA, to which I replied that as I rarely drove 5-6-5-6 I didn’t need the “hours back” to get more hours in as it were.
Handing me a clean bill of health, he commented that “you’d be surprised how many people out there book a bit of POA here, another bit there, and they get upset when we hand them a penalty for “Not taking 45 minutes break after 4.5 hours driving” when in fact their bits of POA had reset their clock, so they were “unaware of being over 4.5 hours driving”, thinking that the bits of POA they’d booked counted towards a break.”
This was in 2011. Since then, I’ve noticed that on digitachos in vehicles I’ve been driving with 12 plates or later that the POA doesn’t seem to ratchet up the “break” minutes in the same way as it used to. It will not register anything until hitting 15 minutes in, then it looks as if POA and BREAK are counted the same. This is deceptive if you’re not carefully monitoring your driving hours…
I would argue that the danger still remains that if you did say, 3 hours of driving, booked 50 minutes POA, and then set off back to the yard 1hr10m away, only to get stuck in traffic for an hour.
What does the digitacho display? - 2.10 driving at most - right?
VOSA would say “You’ve done 5hr10m driving without a break, so here’s this fixed penalty…”
The 50 minutes POA reset off the system the initial 3 hours of driving done.
Anyone else noticed this sort of thing with the other makes of tacho out there?
If you have a job that doesn’t have/need overtime on it, then sure - there’s no need to use POA ever.
The trick to such a job is to have any run where you’re likely to be delayed “at the front” of the duty for the day, and have anything likely to be finished sooner than anticipated at the back.
A proverbial “Job and Knock” ■■■■■■■■■ perhaps?
Eg. Start duty 10:00
30 mins doing walkaround checks, paperwork etc.
1 hour driving
1 hour turnaround
1 hour driving back to base
2 hours helping out on the shop floor, washing vehicles, shunting, etc.
1 hr meal relief
4 hours round trip doing a London drop or two.
Finish.
If you have a job like this, you don’t give a hoot if you get delayed on the way out/back from first customer of the day.
The end bit ensures (assuming know know your way around London OK) that you’ll be home before you stop being paid.
Best of both worlds!
Winseer:
The last VOSA official to explain things to me had pulled me in at Fleet services, and was really going to town, checking underneath the trailer for cracks, etc. as well as carefully looking at my tacho.
He asked me why I had booked so little POA, to which I replied that as I rarely drove 5-6-5-6 I didn’t need the “hours back” to get more hours in as it were.
Handing me a clean bill of health, he commented that “you’d be surprised how many people out there book a bit of POA here, another bit there, and they get upset when we hand them a penalty for “Not taking 45 minutes break after 4.5 hours driving” when in fact their bits of POA had reset their clock, so they were “unaware of being over 4.5 hours driving”, thinking that the bits of POA they’d booked counted towards a break.”
This was in 2011. Since then, I’ve noticed that on digitachos in vehicles I’ve been driving with 12 plates or later that the POA doesn’t seem to ratchet up the “break” minutes in the same way as it used to. It will not register anything until hitting 15 minutes in, then it looks as if POA and BREAK are counted the same. This is deceptive if you’re not carefully monitoring your driving hours…
I would argue that the danger still remains that if you did say, 3 hours of driving, booked 50 minutes POA, and then set off back to the yard 1hr10m away, only to get stuck in traffic for an hour.
What does the digitacho display? - 2.10 driving at most - right?
VOSA would say “You’ve done 5hr10m driving without a break, so here’s this fixed penalty…”
The 50 minutes POA reset off the system the initial 3 hours of driving done.
Anyone else noticed this sort of thing with the other makes of tacho out there?
As far as I’m aware all digital tachographs count 15 minutes of POA as break and after 45 minutes of POA will reset the driving time, there have been all sorts of explanations for this but to me it’s just bad software and should not happen.
If you ‘have to use POA’, then wouldn’t you be better off have a 45 first, then going on POA?
If you drive for 4 hrs and your tip will take 3 hrs surely a 45 followed by 2:15 POA is the best way to go…
robroy:
Just flicked through this thread so I may have got this wrong . but are some actually saying on here that they are not getting paid for POA I know the job has turned to sh, but I didn’t think anybody would be daft enough to agree to that, these firms should be named, they obviously can’t see anything wrong with it so they can’t complain if their name is disclosed.
winseer keeps banging on about it despite never actually knowing of any firms operating like that, well he didn’t about 6 months ago, so things may have changed?
Yorkysays:-:
If you ‘have to use POA’, then wouldn’t you be better off have a 45 first, then going on POA?
If you drive for 4 hrs and your tip will take 3 hrs surely a 45 followed by 2:15 POA is the best way to go…
If it turns out to be 3 hours and the driver has a bunk available then have 3 hours break which could then be used as a split daily rest if needed
The only way you’ll not be paid for POA is if you are salaried.
I’ve never been salaried in my life, so once again you’ve got it all wrong as to what I’m actually going on about here.
It’s not the being paid or not, it’s the “not counted on duty” when you are at work all hours. If that is salaried, THEN it means not being paid - a situation that I personally have not been in, but found out from covering a full timer’s duty one moday-friday week running into let’s say somewhere on the A38 corridor. The above posts on this thread clarify what I am talking about.
Even on Agency when I get to book 15 hours for being on duty 15 hours (fancy that!) I don’t get asked back - because the full timer is expected to be at work 15 hours, but only get salaried based on 11 hours (55 hour week). Thus, 20 hours of the week he’s then unpaid, and considered “off duty” for his POA.
HIS situation - not mine. I’m trying to argue the corner for our supressed brothers here.
Whilst it’s possible I didn’t get asked back because I dropped the last two shifts of the week I’d been booked for, I only did that because I’d run out of “9 hour reduced rests”. There seems to be some doubts STILL on this board over 15hrs (AT WORK) x 5 consecutive shifts being “bent” or not.
robroy:
Just flicked through this thread so I may have got this wrong . but are some actually saying on here that they are not getting paid for POA I know the job has turned to sh, but I didn’t think anybody would be daft enough to agree to that, these firms should be named, they obviously can’t see anything wrong with it so they can’t complain if their name is disclosed.
winseer keeps banging on about it despite never actually knowing of any firms operating like that, well he didn’t about 6 months ago, so things may have changed?
If a firm wasn’t paying for time spent on POA or Break, the tacho would be on other work all the time except for a legal driving break.
That was the main reason POA was put into use, so some companies didn’t have to pay for drivers on break whilst tipping for 3 hours on a bay.
I can easily rack up 5 hours of break doing my job in a 15 hour shift, and have no need to use POA!
Yes, if breaks were paid everywhere, then you’d use additional breaks in place of POA altogether.
Trouble is, “getting breaks deducted” is actually quite common on agency work, usually among the larger clients like Parcels & Supermarkets.
If I’m told on a monday-friday cover that “I’ll be deducted for all breaks taken”, then I’ll book the legal minimum 45 a day (assuming I’m driving between 4:31 and 9hrs every day) and maximise my pay this way. I won’t use POA, as it’s likely that this will be regarded as “break” as well by anyone misreading the digi. When errors are made, they are either ones that deduct wages from the worker that take over a week to put right, or mistakes noticed straight away that occasionally add money to wages, but you’ll be expected to re-pay starting next payday.
If I’m told "you WILL be paid for breaks/POA, but you’ll be on duty more than 15 hours, and/or have reduced rests more than 3 times a week then I’m going to pull the plug as soon as I run out of hours booking no POA at all.
Another place I won’t be working anymore of course, but best to get the temptation bridges burned lest you find yourself tempted to run bent because you’re particularly short of dosh that week.
tachograph:
As far as I’m aware all digital tachographs count 15 minutes of POA as break and after 45 minutes of POA will reset the driving time, there have been all sorts of explanations for this but to me it’s just bad software and should not happen.
Hi tachograph
There is nothing wrong with the software, it as to reset the drive time. think about double manned and the first 45 minutes as break if the tachograph software did not reset the drive time the driver on POA would not be able to drive on change over as he would not of had a 45 minute break. and when the driver puts there card back into slot one it would come up with a driver break required if the driver as drove for 4.5 hours prior to the POA.
hyper26:
if its not legal poa as in :your going to be 30 mins drive: would that not be falsification of records if anybody was enforcing itas its not a true representation of hours worked?
but I could show a printout with 2,3,4,28,52 minutes, whatever. Who can prove I wasn’t told “park over there for x minutes?”
You don’t have to be told, you can also use POA based on previous experience.
happysack:
My firm pays you while you are on duty. Poa, other work, break.
and that’s absolutely as it should be.
POA is the drivers best friend. Keeps your rolling working hours well down.
thats all i use it for. keeping the working hours down makes sure you have plenty of working hours available. hourly rates arent the issue, hourly pay is the problem but if you change to salary then you will have drivers charging around like madmen screwing up your fuel consumption. from a company perspective, you cant win
Winseer:
The last VOSA official to explain things to me had pulled me in at Fleet services, and was really going to town, checking underneath the trailer for cracks, etc. as well as carefully looking at my tacho.
He asked me why I had booked so little POA, to which I replied that as I rarely drove 5-6-5-6 I didn’t need the “hours back” to get more hours in as it were.
Handing me a clean bill of health, he commented that “you’d be surprised how many people out there book a bit of POA here, another bit there, and they get upset when we hand them a penalty for “Not taking 45 minutes break after 4.5 hours driving” when in fact their bits of POA had reset their clock, so they were “unaware of being over 4.5 hours driving”, thinking that the bits of POA they’d booked counted towards a break.”
This was in 2011. Since then, I’ve noticed that on digitachos in vehicles I’ve been driving with 12 plates or later that the POA doesn’t seem to ratchet up the “break” minutes in the same way as it used to. It will not register anything until hitting 15 minutes in, then it looks as if POA and BREAK are counted the same. This is deceptive if you’re not carefully monitoring your driving hours…
I would argue that the danger still remains that if you did say, 3 hours of driving, booked 50 minutes POA, and then set off back to the yard 1hr10m away, only to get stuck in traffic for an hour.
What does the digitacho display? - 2.10 driving at most - right?
VOSA would say “You’ve done 5hr10m driving without a break, so here’s this fixed penalty…”
The 50 minutes POA reset off the system the initial 3 hours of driving done.
Anyone else noticed this sort of thing with the other makes of tacho out there?
As far as I’m aware all digital tachographs count 15 minutes of POA as break and after 45 minutes of POA will reset the driving time, there have been all sorts of explanations for this but to me it’s just bad software and should not happen.
My new tacho doesn’t do that, all my old ones did though.
My new one is also much better in stop / start traffic etc, due to it not ‘clocking up minutes’ like the old ones did.
Yorkysays:-:
If you ‘have to use POA’, then wouldn’t you be better off have a 45 first, then going on POA?
If you drive for 4 hrs and your tip will take 3 hrs surely a 45 followed by 2:15 POA is the best way to go…
Surely a 3hr break would be better - split daily rest
. but are some actually saying on here that they are not getting paid for POA 
I know the job has turned to sh, but I didn’t think anybody would be daft enough to agree to that, these firms should be named, they obviously can’t see anything wrong with it so they can’t complain if their name is disclosed.
