Gembo:
Easy- ignore POA, put it on break and put ya feet up. Job done.
This^^^^^
midlifetrucker:
This isn’t hearsay or folk lore. Drivers gets pulled. They look into his card. On one day he drives 4 hours then arrives at drop. Drops trailer and is then told collection trailer will be 3 hours ish. Driver parks and then switches to Poa for 3 hours. Trailer is ready and he drives off. Vostapo say he should have shown a 45 before switching to Poa. Result £100 smackers fine. Fact.Discuss or explain.
Fact. He hasn’t had a 45 minute break. PoA is not break. He’s not been done for not having a 45 minute break before 3hrs of PoA, he’s been done for exceeding 4.5hrs driving without a 45 minute break.
Especially if you was told it will take three hours, you could put it on break instead of poa, you can do it if you were told you do not need to do anything and for example leave the site. Indeed in this case voostapo was right, you messed it all , 4 drive hours plus 3 poa =7 hours on duty, 1 hour over.
jan_m:
Especially if you was told it will take three hours, you could put it on break instead of poa, you can do it if you were told you do not need to do anything and for example leave the site. Indeed in this case voostapo was right, you messed it all , 4 drive hours plus 3 poa =7 hours on duty, 1 hour over.
One hour over what, if you mean the six hour rule he hasn’t failed to comply with it, the six hour rules requires you to have a 15 minute bread before exceeding six hours working time, POA doesn’t count as working time.
But it doesn’t count as a rest/break either. It’s just period of availability, doing nothing, not resting waiting for something, ready to go, at least he could do the printout and make explanation like" stuck at customers permission, could not to move" maybe they would accept it at last as an efforts to stay legal
jan_m:
Especially if you was told it will take three hours, you could put it on break instead of poa, you can do it if you were told you do not need to do anything and for example leave the site. Indeed in this case voostapo was right, you messed it all , 4 drive hours plus 3 poa =7 hours on duty, 1 hour over.
Doesn’t have to be able to leave the site and in the case of break doesn’t have to be told anything. He could simply select break if he is doing no work. No offence has been committed by doing 7 hours on duty when 3 of them are POA.
It’s almost certain the problem was because he drove back after the POA without taking 45 minutes of break and therefore exceed 4.5 hours driving without the required break.
jan_m:
But it doesn’t count as a rest/break either. It’s just period of availability, doing nothing, not resting waiting for something, ready to go, at least he could do the printout and make explanation like" stuck at customers permission, could not to move" maybe they would accept it at last as an efforts to stay legal
Wouldn’t be worth the paper it was written on. In that situation he had the option to select break instead of POA on the tacho and take the required break. He clearly wasn’t working or he couldn’t have been on POA and the conditions for break are less than those for POA so he had that option.
jan_m:
But it doesn’t count as a rest/break either. It’s just period of availability, doing nothing, not resting waiting for something, ready to go, at least he could do the printout and make explanation like" stuck at customers permission, could not to move" maybe they would accept it at last as an efforts to stay legal
That’s the problem, he booked POA instead of break, because the POA wrongly reset the driving time on the tachograph he continued driving and went over the 4½ hours driving limit without a break, hence the fine.
It’s nothing to do with the six hour rule, anyway the six hour rule is part of the working time regulations and the DVSA don’t fine people for that at the road-side
Duty time
From the gov site "If you work as a driver for a company, duty time is ANY working time.
If you’re self-employed, duty time is only time you spend driving the vehicle or doing other work related to the vehicle or its load."
I think they separated self employed and others intentionally,and poa is any working time in this case in conclusion 4+3 makes 7, over 6. Pretty sure vosa told him why is the fine.
He told in first post why they handed penalty , however he did not explained how much driving he has done when they stopped him that day. In other words , if you do 3 hrs drive and then 13hrs on poa, are you over or not? Yes you are. Why? No rest taken . Even if youwill be even next 4 hrs on poa you still over.
Let’s say vosa’s entering permission and looks at his tacho ?
1.They asking why you’re on break? Cos I was told I can do what I want for 3 hours- you are clear.
2. .They asking why you’re on break? Cos I want to,. - you are done with penalty because you are falsifying records, you do not know how long so you can’t handle yours time freely.
3. They asking why you’re on a poa? Cos I am waiting (do not know how long). - They will advise you to do printout, describe it take rest in a safe place and of you go- you are free.
None of above were happen -so they handed fine
jan_m:
He told in first post why they handed penalty , however he did not explained how much driving he has done when they stopped him that day. In other words , if you do 3 hrs drive and then 13hrs on poa, are you over or not? Yes you are. Why? No rest taken . Even if youwill be even next 4 hrs on poa you still over.
That’s right, unless you’re multi-manning you would be over your time simply because you would not be able to fit a daily rest period into the period of 24 hours from the start of the shift.
In fact if you was multi-manning and for some reason did 3 hours driving and 13 hours POA you would not be over your hours.
The .gov website is al-right but not always technically accurate, read regulation 5 - The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005
- The times of breaks, rests and periods of availability shall not be included in the calculation of working time.
ANY WORKING TIME from the very PDFs you linked
"working time” means the time from the beginning to the end of work during which the mobile worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of his employer and exercising his functions or activities, being
time devoted to all road transport activities, including, in particular– (i) driving;
(ii) loading and unloading;
(iii) assistingpassengersboardinganddisembarkingfromthevehicle; (iv) cleaning and technical maintenance;
(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil the legal or regulatory obligations directly linked to the specific transport operation under way, including monitoring of loading and unloading and dealing with administrative formalities with police, customs, immigration officers and others; or
(b) time during which the mobile worker cannot dispose freely of his time and is required to be at his workstation, ready to take up normal work, with certain tasks associated with being on duty, in particular during periods awaiting loading or unloading where their foreseeable duration is not known in advance, that is to say either before departure or just before the actual start of the period in question, or under collective agreements or workforce agreements;
POA
"Period of availability” means a period during which the mobile worker is not required to remain at his workstation, but is required to be available to answer any calls to start or resume driving or to carry out other work , including periods during which the mobile worker is accompanying a vehicle being transported by a ferry or by a train as well as periods of waiting at frontiers and those due to traffic prohibitions
So now was he really at poa?
jan_m:
Duty timeFrom the gov site "If you work as a driver for a company, duty time is ANY working time.
If you’re self-employed, duty time is only time you spend driving the vehicle or doing other work related to the vehicle or its load."
I think they separated self employed and others intentionally,and poa is any working time in this case in conclusion 4+3 makes 7, over 6. Pretty sure vosa told him why is the fine.
Nonsense, there is no mention of duty time in the regulations so this is just nonsense. Doesn’t matter if you are employed or self employed for the regulations, they are the same for both. Working time for the WTD is driving and other work, POA does not count toward the calculation of work. You could do a shift where you work for 4 hours, have 10 hours 45 minutes POA then do 15 minutes work and you would not require a break. You can be 100% certain he was not fined for 4 hours driving+3 hours POA=7. He could have done another 30 minutes driving or 2 hours non driving work before he required a break.
Edit - removed as it was wrong.
jan_m:
Let’s say vosa’s entering permission and looks at his tacho ?
1.They asking why you’re on break? Cos I was told I can do what I want for 3 hours- you are clear.
You don’t have to be told you can do what you want for break, you just have to be doing no work and using the time for recuperation.
jan_m:
2. .They asking why you’re on break? Cos I want to,. - you are done with penalty because you are falsifying records, you do not know how long so you can’t handle yours time freely.
No you are not done. You do not have to be able to spend the time freely for a break. That is a requirement of a rest period. Rest and Break are not the same thing. No falsifying of records, no fine.
jan_m:
3. They asking why you’re on a poa? Cos I am waiting (do not know how long). - They will advise you to do printout, describe it take rest in a safe place and of you go- you are free.
They would not advise that at all. Also for POA you do have to know how long you will be waiting, that’s something you do not need to know to take a break and is just one reason why teh requirements for break is less than for POA so you have more opportunity to book break rather than POA
jan_m:
None of above were happen -so they handed fine
None of those reasons are why he was fined, because they are all wrong
jan_m:
He was fined from aetr rules not wtc. All drivers are driving under aetr and wtc and are obliged with both- domestic are excluded if I good remembered
He wasn’t, we don’t run to AETR rules in this country, we run to EU Driver’s Regulations - Regulation (EC) 561/2006
You posted saying he was fined for exceeding 6 hours without a break, even though he didn’t, which would be a fine for the Working Time regulations. Now you are saying he wasn’t fined for that and was instead fined for contravenning a set of regulations we don’t run under here? Dude, you are seriously confused. 
Yes I f.d up with aetr, but he was fined for sure for doing more than 6hrs. Find me then definition of rest and break please.
jan_m:
Yes I f.d up with aetr, but he was fined for sure for doing more than 6hrs. Find me then definition of rest and break please.
But I’ve posted a link for you that clearly says “The times of breaks, rests and periods of availability shall not be included in the calculation of working time”.
If POA doesn’t count as working time he can’t have gone over 6 hours working time can he ?
I could post links to the definitions of breaks and rest periods but as the driver never had any it would be irrelevant 
So… Why?