Now taking 23 Rd June off

FEAR. There are some who refuse to be intimidated, and there are some who cower and hide. Good job we don’t still believe that the earth is flat, an intrepid sailor/discoverer found that out. What about the moon? Anyone fancy riding a firework up there and finding out?

We managed for many years before the EU, and relative to the times the UK faired ok. How about people have a good read of Juddian’s post, and think about the point he makes about our lost troops over the years.

I am sure many would turn in their graves at the current situation. Reach down, have a little feel and GET SOME BALLS PEOPLE.

Santa:
Isn’t it the case that the champion of the left and the working classes, J corbyn, is in favour of staying? What about the union leaders, whose noble self sacrifice is all for working people?

Corby has always been anti the EU, had to change his mind in order to get any backing as leader from the labour party, a party which hasn’t actually represented the British working class for 40 years…save honourable exceptions such as Dennis Skinner and the late Anthony Wedgwood Benn.

The tories have always been the fans of EU, right from the start when that famous tory Heath took us in under false pretences.

The union bosses are not the union, members are the union, the bosses do exactly like their industry leader counterparts, feather their own nests.
RMT (the member’s most successful union) as far as i’m aware is the only union openly urging OUT, but happy to be put right if that info is out of date.

edit…spot on Beaver.

I thought it was a bloody cheek when we came over here and found that voting was compulsory. I’ve changed my mind though over the years and see it as something that’s really necessary. It’s apathy that’ll probably balls it up for those that want out. I wonder how many Londoners said " I won’t bother voting for the Mayoral candidates, because it won’t make any difference." Or 'I can’t be arsed."

If we leave the eu, will we still be able to participate in the Eurovision Song Contest?
:laughing:

Juddian:
See i look at things differently.

I’m voting, not my wallet, and to be perfectly honest what it costs me personally is irrelevant, what it will cost the country in the future is at stake here.

This is our only chance to remove the EU dictatorship, and make no bones about it if you cannot remove those who propose the laws which your own castrated Parliament has no power to revoke, then you are living in a dictatorship.

Germany is the big cheese in the EU, this is their push to rule Europe via wealth and not their usual route of gun.
If you’re happy to be ruled by the Germans and their cohorts in the EU Commission then thats fine vote to remain, just don’t complain about it when Frau Merkel orders us to take our ‘‘fair share’’ of the millions of migrants flooding into Europe which she and her kind invited.
Don’t complain either when you eventually revolt at whats coming (economically financially and socially) and the jackboots of EU stormtroopers stomp up our high streets to quell the revolt.

Sorry, but this isn’t a decision for your wallet ladies and gents so don’t be bullied or bought like our leaders by big business, this is a vote for the rule of law and democracy of this country, which is under the same threat as it was circa 1940 but without the guns blazing.

And spare a thought if you will please for the millions of good men and women who died over the last 100 years and more defending these islands and the freedom you currently enjoy, they had to endure gunfire bombs and sheer hell to keep these islands free, and those who are thinking ‘‘whats in it for me’’ might just spare a few moments to reflect on this.

Freedom costs, it cost our forebears everything including their lives, it might cost us a few quid and some hard bloody work to rebuild our country into the fine decent place i was born into, sounds like we get the better deal than they did.

Very well said

OUT OUT OUT

Sorry I have a bit of a stutter.

Rog270:
Mr Ryan I agree with you… regards the right wing of the Tory party…there akin to ■■■■’s…but in 4 years we can vote them out…we remain were in it for good…an God help us then…I mean the working class man

Name me a specific EU policy that has been imposed on Britain without the consent of the British government?

And if you can find an example where the British government has been truly told to shut up and sit down by the sheer muscle of the continental nations, then tell me why they would not be able to do the same even if Britain were outside!

Even when the Tories are reversed on human rights grounds, there is nothing binding the British government but the Tories (and the electorate’s) continued consent to human rights.

The problem is that every time the Tories are reversed, it’s always for a good reason - like causing destitution to the disabled.

And because that is an example where the majority of Brits agree that the Tory party should be stopped from carrying through, they can’t use that as the hook to repeal the HRA - even though there is nothing to stop them but the British electorate - they have to recast the debate into a vague issue of “control” and make people think that repealing the HRA is for some other reason than tipping the disabled out of their wheelchairs (or some other vindictive attack on vulnerable groups).

So too, look at the recent revelations about the intelligence services and support for torture and rendition. Unsurprisingly, Sir Richard Dearlove was in favour of torture and rendition, and he’s in favour of Brexit. Again, they can’t be open and say they want rid of the HRA so that they can torture and render with impunity - because they wouldn’t win a British vote on those terms.

So they recast the debate into “sovereignty” and “control” - and for good measure, pretend to the British worker that they’ll stamp out free movement and workers’ wages will go up if we’re outside of the EU.

As you quite rightly say, those at the top who support Brexit are nothing more than the Nazis of the modern day - agents of destruction and civil decadence, who are simply attacking the institutions that will otherwise bring them to book.

Juddian:
See i look at things differently.

I’m voting, not my wallet, and to be perfectly honest what it costs me personally is irrelevant, what it will cost the country in the future is at stake here.

This is our only chance to remove the EU dictatorship, and make no bones about it if you cannot remove those who propose the laws which your own castrated Parliament has no power to revoke, then you are living in a dictatorship.

So which laws exactly does our Parliament have no control over? In particular, which does it have no control over if it is willing to leave the EU (which is what Brexit is going to do, but not over any specific issue of disagreement)?

Germany is the big cheese in the EU, this is their push to rule Europe via wealth and not their usual route of gun.

But why do they need Britain to be in the EU for that?

Saddam wasn’t in the EU, and Western powers still overruled his sovereignty. Iran is not in the EU, and they’ve been sanctioned into compliance with Western rule.

If you’re happy to be ruled by the Germans and their cohorts in the EU Commission then thats fine vote to remain, just don’t complain about it when Frau Merkel orders us to take our ‘‘fair share’’ of the millions of migrants flooding into Europe which she and her kind invited.

But they’re getting Turkey to take them, and they aren’t even a member of the EU. And we get the French to hold them back at Calais. The only alternative to taking our fair share in an organised fashion, is to have a free-for-all between migrants and border guards up to the limits of the horror that those border guards are willing to inflict.

Because if you’ve put your family in a dinghy and sailed the high seas, and you meet a border guard who’s only agenda is to send you back, then you’re certainly going to fight the guard to get ashore (even if you have nothing against him otherwise). So now we need several more border guards per migrant, and we need to arm the guards with machineguns. And if you’ve got 20 migrants who’ve taken their chances across the high seas, they’ll certainly take their chances charging machine guns (just like soldiers do on enemy beaches, or inmates in concentration camps).

And if you’re pre-emptively machine-gunning people (even children) who are so desperate to flee that they’ll charge a machine gun for a chance of getting ashore, then soon you’ll see the police will machinegun starving British workers too, instead of finding food for Brits when the market economy falters. They did this at Peterloo.

The only counter to this relentless logic is that it causes the collapse of civilisation, because nations are not fundamentally threatened by even millions of migrants coming ashore, but they are threatened by any political logic which prices bullets and conflict below bread and peace, or which somehow thinks that desperate people whose lives are already imperilled can be held back by a gun (or any threat).

Don’t complain either when you eventually revolt at whats coming (economically financially and socially) and the jackboots of EU stormtroopers stomp up our high streets to quell the revolt.

Sorry, but this isn’t a decision for your wallet ladies and gents so don’t be bullied or bought like our leaders by big business, this is a vote for the rule of law and democracy of this country, which is under the same threat as it was circa 1940 but without the guns blazing.

And spare a thought if you will please for the millions of good men and women who died over the last 100 years and more defending these islands and the freedom you currently enjoy, they had to endure gunfire bombs and sheer hell to keep these islands free, and those who are thinking ‘‘whats in it for me’’ might just spare a few moments to reflect on this.

Freedom costs, it cost our forebears everything including their lives, it might cost us a few quid and some hard bloody work to rebuild our country into the fine decent place i was born into, sounds like we get the better deal than they did.

Ironically, our forebears died basically to set up the EU and impose peaceful law and order on European nations. What has changed since is not that the EU has become more aggressive, but that the social aims are increasingly abandoned in favour of the markets again - markets that have always destroyed wages, pensions, and settled lives whenever the market is prioritised above all other demands (including democracy).

Unless you’re leaving the EU in order to defect from the free markets (which is why some far-left Stalinist figures are for Brexit), then all you’re going to end up with is free markets without the vestiges of EU social protections, and without the political organisation to regulate the international marketplace.

Juddian:
RMT (the member’s most successful union) as far as i’m aware is the only union openly urging OUT, but happy to be put right if that info is out of date.

But do you honestly think the likes of Liam Fox, Michael Give, even Boris Johnson, are in favour of rail renationalisation?

The RMT is against the EU for very different reasons to the typical Brexiteer, including that the EU is (as it stands) pro-privatisation. I support the RMT’s socialist principles in this respect, and I support renationalisation, but I am (like Corbyn) for Bremain.

Brexiteers also should note that the Tories are also pro-privatisation, so was New Labour, and so are most other European national governments.

Corbyn is not for Bremain, Corbyn is for Corbyn, just like any other politician. He can’t push his own eurosceptic belief for Brexit, hence the only serious noise from the Labour Party is coming from the underbelly. The party policy is decided by the nec, ironically headed up by a former lorry driver, Paddy Lillis, who happens to be from Antrim, where they’re fiercely pro Europe. Corbyn knows he can’t go against the grain, or he’d never be electable in a case of remain. He’s keeping quiet and hoping for the best

I’m sorry to spoil your evening, but there was an interesting debate on the radio about 3-4 hours ago, either on bbc4 or BBC Northampton, between brexiters and the remain camp and one of the conclusions they came to was that in order to be able to have access to the EU markets if we left we would have to sign to free movement to people as other countries the fringes had, Norway, Iceland and so on.
And that was agreed confirmed by brexiters debaters.
As I’ve always been saying we are going to be out of the club, without a say on how EUs policies are going to be shaped in the future.
Isn’t it smarter to build alliances within EU with other like-minded countries and try to change, improve things this way?
As I said we are going to be laughing stock when reality hits a few months, years after brexiters, and we are going to be begging Germans, French, eastern Europeans to let us trade with them.

Norway accepted free movement as they have a trade surplus with the Eu. We have a deficit so can dictate the terms a little better. Considering remain keep banging on about the Eu/Canadian trade agreement, would anybody know if there’s a free movement agreement in there? :confused:

And don’t forget our industry is protected by EU tacho laws.

Would they remain post EU. I doubt that very much, as we have no driver body to fight for it.

Tried to post a couple of messages on this thread In the last couple of hours, but both were denied.
Someone else’s like to see arguments from both camps of the debate?

And don’t forget our industry is protected by EU tacho laws.

I have NEVER considered that drivers are protected by EU drivers legislation. The rules we had before EU were far simpler, and far more robust. In addition they DID cater to a drivers rest and safety. Not so the EU rules which very few seem to have a real grasp of, judging by the repeated questions on here. (and in honesty, apart from the daily basic rules I admit that I am less than expert on them).

Rjan:

Juddian:
RMT (the member’s most successful union) as far as i’m aware is the only union openly urging OUT, but happy to be put right if that info is out of date.

But do you honestly think the likes of Liam Fox, Michael Give, even Boris Johnson, are in favour of rail renationalisation?

The RMT is against the EU for very different reasons to the typical Brexiteer, including that the EU is (as it stands) pro-privatisation. I support the RMT’s socialist principles in this respect, and I support renationalisation, but I am (like Corbyn) for Bremain.

Brexiteers also should note that the Tories are also pro-privatisation, so was New Labour, and so are most other European national governments.

Says it all.You’re supposedly all about nationalisation but you support EU membership even though you know that the EU doesn’t even stand for what you say you believe in. :unamused:

The fact is the Labour and Con EU sceptics are allied in the cause of fighting out the arguments among ourselves within our own borders with no interference or diversions from the EU.

On that note feel free to explain the difference in the fortunes of the NUM and by implication the Trade Union movement as a whole in 1972 v 1984.That difference being easily explained by the difference in Union power,resulting from the better employment levels and Union rights provided by the pre EEC economic environment as it existed in the 1960’s early 1970’s.

As opposed to the post EEC/EU membership environment of the late 1970’s on.In which UK employment had been transferred to Europe and the actions of pro EEC/EU zb wits like Callaghan,Thatcher and Blair including Thatcher’s trade union ‘reforms’.IE it’s time to bust the bs myth that the EU is good for workers’ rights.At least unless you’re an East Euro worker taking advantage of free movement rules to escape East Euro wage levels.

del949:

And don’t forget our industry is protected by EU tacho laws.

I have NEVER considered that drivers are protected by EU drivers legislation. The rules we had before EU were far simpler, and far more robust. In addition they DID cater to a drivers rest and safety. Not so the EU rules which very few seem to have a real grasp of, judging by the repeated questions on here. (and in honesty, apart from the daily basic rules I admit that I am less than expert on them).

+1.

It’s just one more example of the lie that the EU is supposedly good for workers rights.On that note tell the NUM that or the steel workers.Together with the question of how does the EU explain what took place in 1984 in that regard v 1972 in the form of the wholesale destruction of Union powers and rights under EEC/EU watch that existed pre membership.Let alone the East Euro workforce fleeing its own countries because of its backward third world minimum wage levels.

anon84679660:
we are going to be begging Germans, to let us trade with them.

:unamused: :laughing: :laughing:

Do you have any idea of what the definition of a massive trade deficit means and who holds all the cards accordingly in this case.

Basically, if we remain, eventually cabotage restrictions will be removed, these being contrary to one of the most basic principles of the eu, free movement of labour, and then the UK domestic transport industry will go exactly the same way as the UK continental transport industry

Carryfast:

anon84679660:
we are going to be begging Germans, to let us trade with them.

:unamused: :laughing: :laughing:

Do you have any idea of what the definition of a massive trade deficit means and who holds all the cards accordingly in this case.

Why don’t you tell me the definition of a massive trade deficit and who holds all the cards, please?
You obviously think it is such a good thing for us, the higher it is the better for and we should keep it for ever and even increase it as it makes us a superpower.
Can’t wait for your enlightening reply.